De Beers in Shannon to lay off 370 jobs

No. 11

mikemac wrote: »

Wouldn't you say that's going a bit too far.
Your post mentioned a 20% cut. Harsh but it isn't poverty wages

The consumer price index for June this year shows that the cost of electricity has gone up 4.7%, natural gas 6.5%, hospital services 9.1%, childcare 6.4% and so on and so on.

Basically, the cost of goods that working class people spend a large portion of their income on continues to rise.

Talk of a 20% cut to an average wage that is already, according to the OECD, 40% below that of the average British wage is just not on.

asmobhosca

No. 11 wrote: »

The consumer price index for June this year shows that the cost of electricity has gone up 4.7%, natural gas 6.5%, hospital services 9.1%, childcare 6.4% and so on and so on.

Basically, the cost of goods that working class people spend a large portion of their income on continues to rise.

Talk of a 20% cut to an average wage that is already, according to the OECD, 40% below that of the average British wage is just not on.

Sorry but could you please give a link or reference to the OECD report you quote?
This is a statistic I've never heard before and I'd like to see the report in question and how it was calculated just out of curiosity.
Thanks


Also over the past year the cost of electricity and gas has fallen not risen, although it may have risen again in June it is still at a cheaper level than it was 18 months ago

No. 11

The OECD don't make their reports available for casual browsing afaik, but here's a report in the Indo on it:

The report finds that Irish workers are far from the richest in the OECD, as is sometimes claimed based on output figures.

When price differences are taken into account, a single average worker had net income of $24,500 in 2005, slightly below the Eu-15 average and 40pc below the UK estimate of $34,300.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-ranks-well-for-high-wages-low-tax-47454.html

And the CPI report from the CSO for June 2009 tells us that in the last 12 months the cost of...

Electricity is up 4.7%
Natural Gas is up 6.5%
Bottled Gas is up 10.1%
Solid Fuels is up 13.5%
Doctors Fees is up 2.2%
Dental Services is up 2.3%
Hospital Services is up 9.1%
Rail Transport is up 9.0%
Bus Fares is up 10.9%
Taxi Fares is up 8.2%
Primary Education is up 7.6%
Second Level Education is up 7.1%
Third Level Education is up 4.7%
Childcare is up 6.4%
Insurance is up 19.2%
and prices in Canteens are up 6.7%.

On top of that, the Harmonised Index of Consumer Prices increased by 1.8% between July 2007 and June of this year.

Gruffalo

No. 11 wrote: »

And what would such a compromise entail? Some combination of a cut in wages, the slashing of conditions, or a stingy redundancy in a barren jobs market no doubt.

But why should the workers compromise when they have De Beers, to put it crudely, by the short and curlies? E6 don't appear to be able to move production overseas, they need the Shannon workers and their expertise. Given the huge value of the products, materials and machinery inside the plant, the workers could bring De Beers to their knees if they were to, say, occupy the plant.

Now, while the company have been able to swing much of the media behind them by exploiting their ignorance and by appearing to act in good faith by coming back with this "offer", the reality is it has no bearing on the real balance of strength. The workers can quite easily regain the initiative if they act decisively.

By offering workers the prospect of some work they're blatantly engaged in a strategy of divide and rule. While it's understandable why some would be inclined to step forward and accept these new reduced conditions, it should be emphasised that this would just be the beginning. That if they were to get away with this the workers who remained would be in a severely weakened position and liable to be made to accept further cuts in the very near future, but that if workers make a stand the company will think twice before making another attempt on their conditions.

The broader consequences of this dispute are also evidenced by the recent statement by the President of the Limerick Chamber of Commerce in response to the E6 jobs slaughter where he called for a 20% pay cut for all wages across the board. In order to protect their profit margins they are willing to force the rest of us to work for less at a time when the price of essentials, such as electricity and fuel, continue to rise.

They want us to work for poverty wages so as to protect their cushions. We shouldn't accept this and we certainly shouldn't compromise with this mentality. The more pay is slashed, the less money people have to spend. Such measures may protect their profits for a time but it will only serve to further deepen the downwards spiral of the general economy.

This is a profitable company - workers should demand that De Beers takes the hit to its profit margin in order to repay its workforce for all the years of service and billions they generated for them. The most important thing for workers to do now is to regain the initiative by going on the offensive. E6 have bared their teeth already and shown how low they're willing to stoop. Workers should have absolutely no qualms about taking the fight to them.

With all due respect, I said a compromise is an essential part of negotiation. I didn't say what that compromise should be and considering I am not involved in the negotiations it would be stupid for me to state that. However, it would seem clear that no compromise = no jobs. I am all for the workers rights but to be completely unwilling to compromise is not the proper approach.

No. 11

Gruffalo wrote: »

With all due respect, I said a compromise is an essential part of negotiation. I didn't say what that compromise should be and considering I am not involved in the negotiations it would be stupid for me to state that. However, it would seem clear that no compromise = no jobs. I am all for the workers rights but to be completely unwilling to compromise is not the proper approach.

I don't accept that this is necessarily so. I understand where you're coming from but, and it has been alluded to in previous posts by not just me, the workers here are in a very strong bargaining position if they choose to go that route.

For instance, there are contracts that still have to be fulfilled within a set period of time by Shannon or E6 risk being sued by their customers. We're talking about millions here.

De Beers cannot afford to be obstinate. This is the workers strength.

firesidechat

Don't flatter yourself, I'm quiet sure that E6 have covered all possable
angles and have an alternative plan ready to roll if shannon does indeed decide to take industrial action.E6 has been very good to the people of clare since the very first day they stepped foot in ireland.
As with many things in life,The good times don't last forever.
Personaly speaking if i was given the option of either a cut in wages or drawing the dole i would take my cut in pay.Half a loaf is better than no bread.
Jobs are nonexcistant at the moment ,and i would advise anyone thinking different to be very carefull.
Don't close the door to compromise.
It is the lesser of two evils.
Maybe getting a guarantee from management to revisit these issues if and when the global economy gets on it's feet again would help.It's a very hard decision for all E6 workers to make and i can only wish the very best of luck to all involved.

Max001

I was told last year by people in E6 about another company, possibly in Limerick, that was in roughly the same scenario as E6 is now in Shannon.....Tomahawk or Mohawk or something sounding like that. Was three or four years ago. The company was losing money and was uncompetitive and the local management, at the point of closure, came up with a rescue plan. The workers, represented I was told by Mary O'Donnell of SIPTU (who's the lead employee negotiator in the E6 case) voted down the rescue package to keep the plant open and in favour of holding out for better redundancy terms than were offered. The US parent company pulled the plug as threatened and the workers got a minimal redundancy package. Some of those guys ended up working at E6. Bit of a shame to be led up a dead end cul de sac by Mary twice in one lifetime wouldn't ya say?
Makes me wonder if and where reality comes into this. The position E6 is in now has been on the radar for ages and if you think the company won't close production and doesn't have contingency plans, you'd be very mistaken.
If you're in SIPTU, the next time you bend over and feel a pain in the rear, that'll be Mary O'Donnell f**king you in the ass!

croker95

No. 11 wrote: »

The OECD don't make their reports available for casual browsing afaik, but here's a report in the Indo on it:



And the CPI report from the CSO for June 2009 tells us that in the last 12 months the cost of...

Electricity is up 4.7%
Natural Gas is up 6.5%
Bottled Gas is up 10.1%
Solid Fuels is up 13.5%
Doctors Fees is up 2.2%
Dental Services is up 2.3%
Hospital Services is up 9.1%
Rail Transport is up 9.0%
Bus Fares is up 10.9%
Taxi Fares is up 8.2%
Primary Education is up 7.6%
Second Level Education is up 7.1%
Third Level Education is up 4.7%
Childcare is up 6.4%
Insurance is up 19.2%
and prices in Canteens are up 6.7%.

On top of that, the Harmonised Index of Consumer Prices increased by 1.8% between July 2007 and June of this year.

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics:)......To be fair you have cherry picked items from the list to support your point of view but it is worth noting that the overall index is down 5.4% to the 12 months to June (with further prices decreases in electricity etc already announced)

However it is ridiculous to see hospital charges increasing by 9.1% in a year in which we are experiencing the worst recession in our history.

No. 11

The point I was making croker is that while the overall cost of living is falling, the cost of many items on which low income workers and their families spend a large portion of their income is actually rising. None of the above could be considered luxuries by any means.

clarecoco

No. 11 wrote: »

I don't accept that this is necessarily so. I understand where you're coming from but, and it has been alluded to in previous posts by not just me, the workers here are in a very strong bargaining position if they choose to go that route.

For instance, there are contracts that still have to be fulfilled within a set period of time by Shannon or E6 risk being sued by their customers. We're talking about millions here.

De Beers cannot afford to be obstinate. This is the workers strength.

Turning this down is a big decision by the workers. I doubt if the workers are in a strong position considering a week ago virtually all jobs were gone. If contracts are to be broken the numbercrunchers will do the sums and add up the cost of additional redundancy payments per worker as opposed to shutting down and paying a million or 2 of a penalty for not fulfilling a contract.

For example every additional €10k for a 100 workers costs any business €1 million. If it closes giving 300 workers an additional €10k above statutory will cost E6 €3 million - not to talk of the multiples of that figure expected by Union members.

Do the maths they are unlikely to stay at any cost as even giving additional redundancy payments now is going to cost several million. Also there does not seem to be any support from workers or Union so it may be an easy decision to just close down and take the loss. I think we can all see the headlines now "Intransigent Union causes factory to close down" so the media war is already won by the company.

I understand the company is making huge profits particularly in countries where the wages are 1/10th of Irish wage norms. The numbercrunchers will factor this in also.

Voice_of_Reason

One wonders why Siptu are only interested in getting a better redundancy deal rather that working to retain 170 jobs? Jobs are hard to come by - has Mary O'Donnell 170 new jobs lined up in Shannon for those that she is now risking. A compromise is needed or E6 will take their business elsewhere like some multinationals have done in the past and many more will do in the future. Nothing is to be gained by the posturing that Siptu are engaing in now but there is a lot to be lost and posturing does not pay the household bills!

Max001

Voice_of_Reason wrote: »

One wonders why Siptu are only interested in getting a better redundancy deal rather that working to retain 170 jobs? Jobs are hard to come by - has Mary O'Donnell 170 new jobs lined up in Shannon for those that she is now risking. A compromise is needed or E6 will take their business elsewhere like some multinationals have done in the past and many more will do in the future. Nothing is to be gained by the posturing that Siptu are engaing in now but there is a lot to be lost and posturing does not pay the household bills!

Like most issues, I'd guess theres more than one reason, however SIPTU branch officials are always conscious of the national adgenda.....which is no dilution of workers rights and terms and conditions......as well as securing jobs.....though seemingly at times the two can be mutually exclusive. Their national perspective would be that if they agree a dramatic lowering of previously extremely generous E6 redundancy terms in Shannon, other employers will seek to use this against them elsewhere in the country. Its a balance between the interests of the E6 workers and SIPTU members nationally.

Its only my own personal opinion, however I believe SIPTU would sacrifice the E6 workers in a heartbeat and seek to blame the company, in the interests of not setting a precedent of an employer with Rolls Royce redundancy terms negotiating a lower package and re-engaging employees on lesser Ts & Cs, because this is completely at odds with their ideology. Ideology and politics are a big factor in this dispute and its these factors that may win out over the practicalities of saving sustainable jobs.

Don't get me wrong, I value the hard won advances in working conditions that unions have won and respect their role in balancing employer power, however families can't pay their mortgages with ideology and the 'never give an inch', open hostility and contempt that Mary O'Donnell displays in dealings with employers is a throwback to Mao's Red Guards or Hilter's Gestapo......'our truth is the only truth and anything else is heresy.'

Voice_of_Reason

To summarise what is being said- Siptu are using the E6 situation for the greater good of Siptu not the workers there - they have seized an opportunity to come out of the widerness that the Celtic Tiger banished them to and are working it 100%.
I feel sorry for the people in E6 that will lose their jobs however the perception that Siptu is creating of the workforce there will not help them finding new ones. E6 will retain 170 or so of the 370 jobs that were effectively gone a week ago - this must be worth in excess of 10 million to the local economy which Shannon, Clare and Limerick badly needs. What can be done to positively help this along?

Max001

Being realistic, only the intervention of someone very senior in government with local interest like the Defence Minister and thats not very likely as I'd guess politicians have a sense of the likely outcome, so will keep this clusterf**k at arms length.

Gruffalo

No. 11 wrote: »

I don't accept that this is necessarily so. I understand where you're coming from but, and it has been alluded to in previous posts by not just me, the workers here are in a very strong bargaining position if they choose to go that route.

For instance, there are contracts that still have to be fulfilled within a set period of time by Shannon or E6 risk being sued by their customers. We're talking about millions here.

De Beers cannot afford to be obstinate. This is the workers strength.

I would be shocked if a large organisation like E6 did not have a contingency plan to deal with this sort of thing.

irishturkey

There is a hell of a lot of tripe being written here. E6 employees would have been quite happy to take a pay cut and try to increase productivity... but we weren't asked to do that. We've been on 50% pay for the last two months, and 66% for three months previous to that. So if we had been asked to go back on full time with a 20% pay cut, we'd have gladly accepted. But that option was never put to us. We, the workers are more than open to compromise, as long as its honest and transparent with no hidden agendas and clauses. But the fact of the matter is, we don't believe we should have to reapply for our jobs. They first announced there was 370 to go, but then "saved" 163 jobs. Thats 207 that they need to go. Last January they got rid of 150 but had another 70 or 80 people on a waiting list should another package become available. Now with all their latest fannying around, they've pee'd off so many people that they'd easily get up to 150 or more to go voluntarily... given the right package!!

When they got rid of those people in January, one man applied but was refused. A couple of weeks later he was told his section would be moving to Germany and if he wasn't going to go, there was no job for him. What sense does that make? Are we honestly supposed to believe that a major company the size of E6 just "made a mistake" when they announced 370 jobs were gone? If thats to be believed, then it makes a mockery of CEO Cyrus Jilla and his board of directors for being so short sighted. But it isn't to be believed. It was a ploy to drive people out on miserly redundancy packages.

Yesterday we went in for the union meeting to decide what course of action should be taken. There was a letter waiting or each employee from General Manager Ken Sullivan. In it he blatantly lied as management have seen fit to do throughout this dispute. He claimed that there had been talks with non union representatives and managers. Our meeting got started and one of the first speakers was the "leader" of the non union group. He said there had been no dialogue between them and management. Its divide and conquer tactics being employed by the company now. They're playing dirty. When they announced the 150 jobs gone in November Sullivan stood in front of us, his lip quivering like it was a heatbraking decision. Now that we've (finally) started to stand up for ourselves he's become confrontational and more aggressive... like the pitbull he has running Human Resources.

As for Mohawk, I don't know the ins and outs of what happened there so I won't comment, unlike many are doing here. What role Mary O Donnell played in its closure I also know nothing about. What I will say about her is this. I don't like her. I find her approach to union members abrasive and arrogant but the fact is she's only doing what we tell her to do. She has given no direction to us whatsoever. In fact its a sleight on here that she's shown no leadership at all. I believe she enjoys throwing verbal volleys at management whethere its a meaningful contribution or not. But as I say, she's only following our orders so to blame here for whats happening is wide of the mark.

This is the bit that really gets me... our almighty saviour, the moustachioed one himself, Willie O' feckin Dea. Our representatives met with Marian Harkin MEP a couple of weeks ago in the Green Isle hotel on the Ennis Road in Limerick. She had a conference room booked, she knew the intricacies of what were going on and had done her homework. In contrast, the Minister in all his wisdom, met our reps in the hotel lobby... for 15 minutes and finished up with "I'll see what I can do".

I've personally emailed the Tanaiste... a week and a half ago and have yet to receive a reply. This government know they're up that infamous creek without a paddle. They know they're gone in the next election and as far as I can see they're sitting back and letting things play out.

Again I can only ask people to get facts before commenting. I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion but its incredibly frustrating to have people making remarks that have little or knowledge behind them.

Max001

Hi IrishTurkey

I want to apologise unreservedly if anything I've said here is inaccurate. Nor would I take issue with anything you've said here
and thank you for taking time, during a very difficult period, to correct any inaccuracies here.

I've seen crossed wires and misunderstandings as well as distrust adversely effect many negotiations in the past, that could have been
resolved better and faster, with less anguish all round. I sincerely hope that this isn't happening on this occasion because the people who will pay for it will be the employees.

irishturkey

Max001 wrote: »

Hi IrishTurkey

I want to apologise unreservedly if anything I've said here is inaccurate. Nor would I take issue with anything you've said here
and thank you for taking time, during a very difficult period, to correct any inaccuracies here.

I've seen crossed wires and misunderstandings as well as distrust adversely effect many negotiations in the past, that could have been
resolved better and faster, with less anguish all round. I sincerely hope that this isn't happening on this occasion because the people who will pay for it will be the employees.

Thanks Max001, I don't want to come across as being confrontational, its just, as I say, it gets frustrating to be portrayed negatively by the media and have people believe the spin.

clarecoco

Previous posts mentioned the Mohawk company closure. The following is a reminder of what happened from RTE news website Wednesday, 22 August 07.

A Shannon based company Mohawk Europa, which employs 92 workers announced its closure.The Company, was based in Shannon since 1963, had incurred losses over the previous months, due to higher production costs and a strong euro. In July 2007 it had proposed job saving measures and a survival plan which included seeking redundancies from the beginning of August of that year. The measures were rejected by the workforce. Subsequent talks at the Labour Relations Court also broke down.
The company then closed and appointed a liquidator.

Another example is the Gateaux bakery dispute in Finglas in Dublin in 1990. This group of workers had not had a strike for as long as anyone could remember. The company threatened closure but the workers believed it was a threat that would not be followed through. Within days they were illegally occupying their workplace, holding a 16 week occupation.

The company did not change its position and it remained closed with the loss of all jobs.

irishturkey

*bangs head against wall*

dungeon

Such a shameto hear bad news stories on the jobs front in Shannon. It's amazing , though, as lots of people seem to be using Shannon airport as opposed to Cork Airport. I live near Cork Airport and countless friends of mine have chosen to fly out of Shannon Airport this summer instead of the airport here in Cork. Why? Because it's much cheaper. Cork Airport is crippled by high charges and that's why Ryan Air only operate a skeleton service out of Cork as opposed to Shannon.
Shannon has lots going for it and I hope the bad news stops soon.

avenged7fold

clarecoco wrote: »

Previous posts mentioned the Mohawk company closure. The following is a reminder of what happened from RTE news website Wednesday, 22 August 07.

A Shannon based company Mohawk Europa, which employs 92 workers announced its closure.The Company, was based in Shannon since 1963, had incurred losses over the previous months, due to higher production costs and a strong euro. In July 2007 it had proposed job saving measures and a survival plan which included seeking redundancies from the beginning of August of that year. The measures were rejected by the workforce. Subsequent talks at the Labour Relations Court also broke down.
The company then closed and appointed a liquidator.

Another example is the Gateaux bakery dispute in Finglas in Dublin in 1990. This group of workers had not had a strike for as long as anyone could remember. The company threatened closure but the workers believed it was a threat that would not be followed through. Within days they were illegally occupying their workplace, holding a 16 week occupation.

The company did not change its position and it remained closed with the loss of all jobs.

The e6 situation is different to the 2 quothed above. Those 2 companies were being wound down as opposed to e6 which is moving its operations overseas & continuing as a going concern. E6 needs its Shannon staff to cooperate if it wishes to have a smooth transition to continue operations in (i presume) South Africa. By voting to take industrial action the staff may be putting the sustainability plan at risk to gain a better package for the 200 plus who will be made redundant anyway but the company is also taking a risk if it does not have a contingency plan in place to keep customers supplied & happy while the **** hits the fan in Shannon. This could set a precedent for businesses across the country, depending on how it plays out.

clarecoco

avenged7fold wrote: »

The e6 situation is different to the 2 quothed above. Those 2 companies were being wound down as opposed to e6 which is moving its operations overseas & continuing as a going concern. E6 needs its Shannon staff to cooperate if it wishes to have a smooth transition to continue operations in (i presume) South Africa. By voting to take industrial action the staff may be putting the sustainability plan at risk to gain a better package for the 200 plus who will be made redundant anyway but the company is also taking a risk if it does not have a contingency plan in place to keep customers supplied & happy while the **** hits the fan in Shannon. This could set a precedent for businesses across the country, depending on how it plays out.

Not sure if it is that different. I did not mention the Thomas Cook example as it so recent. And we all know about it. Thomas Cook Group plc is one of the world's leading leisure travel groups with sales of £8.8 billion, in 21 countries. The Irish base was not profitable so they closed it down. Employees are still looking to get more than the statutory redundancy but operations are gone in Ireland. Negotiators now say discussions are being dragged out to avoid negative publicity

Element Six had a turnover in 2007 of US $500 million and 3600 employees and is profitable in other countrie. Will that plant make a profit after the survival plan and any redundancy pay outs? I expect a factor in the Shannon issue will be the negative publicity being generated by the expected dispute and the “us and them” approach which is clearly apparent between the workers and management.