ANPR interesting read.

WHITE_P

For anyone who interested,

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/numbers-up-for-cartax-dodgers-with-new-gadget-1830410.html

Wibbs

Good idea that.

Stevie Dakota

I think it's a great invention, I just hope the Garda act rather than issue verbal warnings the whole time. It must be a lot more admin work for them.

JHMEG

The UK police have had that system for several years. Because it takes weeks to get the data from the tax offices, the system generates a lot of false positives.

Berty

Lovely little system.

The amount of people in this country dodging tax and Insurance are exceptional.

If the Gardai stop every car that flashes on the screen they will get nothing done.

thebiglad

This will work fine for tax but the Irish System is nowhere near as developed as UK for Insurance.

In UK it is the responsibility of Motor Insurers to update a central database which is in turn used by Police to identify uninsured vehicles using their ANPR.

Insurance companies to my knowledge must update the database within 5 working days of incepting or altering a cover and failure to do so results in significant fines for them.

Here in Ireland we renew our tax and are asked to 'accurately' enter the details of our insurance which cannot be confirmed in anyway - therefore every car which is taxed will show up as having legitimate insurance.

Another problem is with the people who tax their cars for 12 months in say June but their insurance renews in August - potentially the details of insurance held by Motortax.ie could be wrong for 10 months at no fault of the driver.

Whilst the introduction of ANPR is a step forward its value is extremely limited for insurance until there is a central database.

Dartz

And it doesn't work on foreign registered cars....

Which are most likely to be taxed and uninsured.

fletch

Brilliant system. Read a good few people complaining about the whole big brother aspect of it....tbh once you've all your documents in order, who cares.

fletch

thebiglad wrote: »

This will work fine for tax but the Irish System is nowhere near as developed as UK for Insurance.

In UK it is the responsibility of Motor Insurers to update a central database which is in turn used by Police to identify uninsured vehicles using their ANPR.

Insurance companies to my knowledge must update the database within 5 working days of incepting or altering a cover and failure to do so results in significant fines for them.

Here in Ireland we renew our tax and are asked to 'accurately' enter the details of our insurance which cannot be confirmed in anyway - therefore every car which is taxed will show up as having legitimate insurance.

Another problem is with the people who tax their cars for 12 months in say June but their insurance renews in August - potentially the details of insurance held by Motortax.ie could be wrong for 10 months at no fault of the driver.

Whilst the introduction of ANPR is a step forward its value is extremely limited for insurance until there is a central database.

Now I didn't know that...I assumed the system would be updated by the insurance companies....sure you can enter any insurance details you want on motortax.ie

Tipsy Mac

Id put someone driving without insurance in the same category as a drink driver, its important there idiots are taken off the road for the rest of us.

OldmanMondeo

fletch wrote: »

Now I didn't know that...I assumed the system would be updated by the insurance companies....sure you can enter any insurance details you want on motortax.ie

Yip, Do it to see if it would be accepted. It asks you for Insurance company, policy number and expiry date. If these details are entered correctly the system would be worrect, but then again messers mike me and people who don't have insurance will always bypass it.

BTW, I am fully insured, just need to tax the beast next week.

Cookie_Monster

Its a good idea and I'm surprised it has taken so long to copy it from the UK.

Was alongside a marked Mondeo with one the other day and they are far from subtle peices of kit. Clunky black box on the boot lid and another bigger one on the parcel shelf.

They'll make the unmarked cars stand out even more

biko

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Was alongside a marked Mondeo with one the other day and they are far from subtle peices of kit. Clunky black box on the boot lid and another bigger one on the parcel shelf.

Saw one yesterday in the city on a marked car

fletch

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Yip, Do it to see if it would be accepted. It asks you for Insurance company, policy number and expiry date. If these details are entered correctly the system would be worrect, but then again messers mike me and people who don't have insurance will always bypass it.

BTW, I am fully insured, just need to tax the beast next week.

Yeh I know, I was helping a friend tax their car a few weeks ago and they didn't know their insurance details at the time so we entered bogus information and it accepted it no problem.

seamus

fletch wrote: »

Yeh I know, I was helping a friend tax their car a few weeks ago and they didn't know their insurance details at the time so we entered bogus information and it accepted it no problem.

Yeah, it's a known problem with the motor tax site because there's no link of any kind with the insurers. So I'm not sure where the Gardai's ANPR system is getting its insurance info from.

Also:

Every morning the system operator downloads the latest list of vehicles with tax and insurance, and details of suspicious and stolen vehicles, on to a memory stick which is inserted into the system.

*Cry*.

Really, what's wrong with updating the cars over a wireless (or even wired) link at the base (you just press an "update" button on the screen), and then have digests of updated information (from people taxing their cars that day) downloaded to the vehicle every hour over one of the 3G networks? That sounds unnecessary, but in reality when you are entrusting the operator to make sure the data is updated every day, things are more likely to go wrong than if they just press a button on the screen.

eringobragh

The whole things useless without an insurance database IMO and knowing Ireland as it is, I suspect some half baked solution to this in the next decade or so :pac:.

JHMEG

seamus wrote: »

Really, what's wrong with updating the cars over a wireless (or even wired) link at the base

Cost. USB sticks are nearly free.

Henry Ford III

Poor Cops won't get 50 yards from base without forty eleven alarms going off

Yakult

Good to see the system coming into play. If its anything like the uk system is should hopefully be a success.

Should be interesting to see what kinda figures they will get for uninsured drivers on our roads.

PanhardPL

What will happen with either Motor Trade or Fleet Policies that don't have registration numbers shown on the Certs or Discs, just the owners name. Will those vehicles show up as uninsured .

R.O.R

PanhardPL wrote: »

What will happen with either Motor Trade or Fleet Policies that don't have registration numbers shown on the Certs or Discs, just the owners name. Will those vehicles show up as uninsured .

If it's being run from the tax database, we still have to input an insurance policy number to be able to tax the car - so if it's taxed it should show as insured.

The policy number is usually not the one that corresponds to the disc on the windscreen though.

cashmni1

While renewing tax forms on-line, I too don't remember if I used my actual policy or just entered bogus numbers. (I think I entered my actual policy details)
In the case where I used all 1's or whatever string of digits, the tax office (or downloaded info to the APNR equipment) will have NO reference to my insurance.
So, for instance, my tax is out 3 weeks, or whatever, and I get pulled over. I have a valid insurance policy, but the boys in blue don't believe me at the side of the road. Remember that you can get a policy and cancel it - hence a disk in the windscreen.
What is the law in relation to carrying your insurance policy document in the car?
Should everyone now carry the actual policy document in the glove box?
As a previous poster said, not everyone pays tax and insurance in the 12 month blocks, i.e 3 months for tax etc. so the insurance will not show up as paid.

PanhardPL

R.O.R wrote: »

If it's being run from the tax database, we still have to input an insurance policy number to be able to tax the car - so if it's taxed it should show as insured.

The policy number is usually not the one that corresponds to the disc on the windscreen though.

You have your facts wrong when you say the policy number does not correspond with the disc on the w/screen, seeing that when a person receives an Insurance Certificate, the screen disc is attached to same.

Buffman

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

They'll make the unmarked cars stand out even more

Ye, it is a waste of an unmarked car. The UK system doesn't seem to be as visible from outside.




Vs

Del2005

Dartz wrote: »

And it doesn't work on foreign registered cars....

Which are most likely to be taxed and uninsured.

They don't need to be taxed....and since we don't know if they are going to be using the Motortax.ie insurance database or actually getting a proper database then the same can be said for any Irish reg car.

But it should help to catch people dodging VRT. When you go to VRT the car or if stopped by customs/Gardai they can check if it has driven past any ANPR camera, if it has then lift it unless they can provide proof that they are legally allowed to be driving it.

R.O.R

PanhardPL wrote: »

You have your facts wrong when you say the policy number does not correspond with the disc on the w/screen, seeing that when a person receives an Insurance Certificate, the screen disc is attached to same.

And you didn't understand what I wrote.

The policy number used when renewing tax on the thousands of fleet vehicles we look after is generally our policy number. The policy number on the disc in the window of the cars is not that number, it's the companies own insurance policy number.

FACT!

PanhardPL

R.O.R wrote: »

And you didn't understand what I wrote.

The policy number used when renewing tax on the thousands of fleet vehicles we look after is generally our policy number. The policy number on the disc in the window of the cars is not that number, it's the companies own insurance policy number.

FACT!

I quote from my own situation.

thebiglad

2 Points

In respect of fleet vehicles.

UK model is that it remains the responsibilty of insurers to update the database - TBH if it was left to us then it would be (is) a pointless exercise to maintain a database at all.

The issue in UK is that it removes the possibility to operate a fleet on a declaration basis (i.e. only declare cars to the Insurer either monthly/quarterly). This may cause some increase in fleet motor premium as additional staff will be required, the offset is of course less uninsured motorists and so a reduction in the levy insurers must pay to maintain the Motor Insurance Bureau.

The Irish ANPR is only good to catch people for no tax - this is good for revenue, it may have some psychological impact that people believe they will also be identified for no insurance. Also people who do not tax or NCT their vehicles are also unlikely to insure their vehicles.

Sorry to keep reverting to the UK (I know some folk find that annoying!!) but it is a model for AGS to follow and in respect of tax, they have a much simpler solution than rely on ANPR - they assume that unless you notify them otherwise that the vehicle is in use, therefore if it is not taxed you will receive a penalty notice (to the registered address of vehicle) automatically, fail to pay and it's enforcement/confiscation. As a fall back the details of non-payment also put out on the ANPR's to catch people as they drive around.

Finally, ANPR is not limited to the police cars, also static cameras on most major routes which will identify if untaxed/uninsured vehicles are mobile - basically may life as difficult as possible.

With the 1st few months of full use of ANPR here AGS will not get to do any other work.

Of course, what it all comes down to is enforcement - lets see how they go with that!!:D

Dartz

By foreign cars, I meant the hundresds of British and continental registered cars that are being driven by people resident within the State...

A machine won't twig anything other than these being foreign registered vehicles, the only way to catch these is with checkpoint enforcement.

Besides, it's a measure of the boring day I've had that out of sheer mindless boredom, I pondered if it would be possible to fix the numberplate of of motorcycle that has been off the road for about 6 years untaxed to the back of a bicycle and pedal around Dublin irritating the feck out of Gardaí by triggering the thing....

Saab Ed

Lads this quote from the article worries me

" The system holds up to 20 days of material, and will eventually be updated throughout the day. At the end of the shift, the information is fed into a central computer in HQ. "

Now anything that takes uninsured drivers off the road to me is a fantastic invention full stop. I do though have major concerns with where this information is stored, for how long it is stored and how the information is used after. It doesnt just record information on the law breakers , it records every vehicle it has seen that day. Now Im not one for shouting about our civil liberties but in fairness I think we all know the short comings of our finest and fairly recent media coverage of some of them hasnt painted them in the best of pictures. ( Nobody mention Donegal ). Information like that can be used to constuct any sort of case against someone. God forbid you drive down the same road 3 or 4 times a day where someone was murdered. And as regards Road Tax ( and before anyone starts mine is all paid up ) is'nt that Revenues job? More waste of time. Lastly and someone else has mentioned this already, what about the like of myself driving everything on a Trade policy. How many times a day am I likely to get stopped and try and convince some guard that the database doesnt matter in this case. Like lads innocent till proven guilty and all that.

jetfiremuck

I wonder if the anpr car can be left parked at the side of the road with no one in it recording away storing data for retrievel later andleading to prosecution later? Having no tax is the only trigger they need as details of the owner address is now at hand. The issue with insurance can be dealt with at the time of the stop. If the person driving cant show drivers license at the time (required to be with you while driving I think) will trigger summons and other issues.