Possible reduction in the minimum wage

loctite

I was just reading on the RTE website about the announcement of 370 job losses in the mid west region with Element 6 closing down their production and distribution operations in Shannon.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0722/elementsix.html

And in the corner of the page was a further article about the possibility of cutting the minimum wage, if it were to become an obstacle in the provision of jobs in this country or as the article put it inhibiting job creation.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0722/economy.html

The government is trying to develop Ireland as a knowledge based economy, attracting R&D investment etc, by decreasing the minimum wage, this is going to do nothing to attract these sort of employers.

Why not put a cap on wages?? I read 3 years ago about the semi - state owned company, the ESB. The average wage in Poolbeg was in the region of 160k a year and that the average in Kilrush was circa 140K euro. If all these manufacturing facilities are employing similar skill types I can understand why they are leaving.

My argument is that, I don't think Ireland's minimum wage is the cause of uncompetitiveness. What do people think about this???

Martyr

The inflated wages of public sector employees is the primary cause of uncompetitiveness in this country.

Minimum wage has nothing to do with it.

99% of the people asking for a reduction wouldn't work minimum wage, they'd sit on the dole instead, or sit in some cushy office scratching their balls, surfing twitter and bebo, all at the expense of tha taxpayer.

ei.sdraob

Martyr wrote: »

The inflated wages of public sector employees is the primary cause of uncompetitiveness in this country.

Minimum wage has nothing to do with it.

99% of the people asking for a reduction wouldn't work minimum wage, they'd sit on the dole instead, or sit in some cushy office scratching their balls, surfing twitter and bebo, all at the expense of tha taxpayer.

you right about inflated wages of public sector

but you are wrong about minimum wage

just look north of the border

their dole is ALOT less and the minimum wage is less and things cost less hence they are more competitive

see?

TheInquisitor

Martyr wrote: »

The inflated wages of public sector employees is the primary cause of uncompetitiveness in this country.

Minimum wage has nothing to do with it.

99% of the people asking for a reduction wouldn't work minimum wage, they'd sit on the dole instead, or sit in some cushy office scratching their balls, surfing twitter and bebo, all at the expense of tha taxpayer.

Your dead right man not only should be slash the minimum wage to at least E7 we should also cut the ridiculously high dole. In england its less than E100 per week. Why the hell is it double that amount here??? Easily cut it to 125. Sure people have their rent paid for, health paid for 125 euro on food and the basics is PLENTLY! Your not meant to be living the good life on the dole you should be just surviving and therefore more wanting of a job.

ei.sdraob

if they just cut the minimum wage and not the dole

then people wont bother working

its already more practical to stay at home on dole than work the minimum wage

loctite

Whoa there pony....

You are making some serious generalisations..... For a start, explain how public sector wages adds to uncompetitiveness with a view to job creation in the private sector???

I understand that the min wage is an international indicator of Ireland's level of competitiveness. But cutting the minimum wage means sweet FA when electrical engineers (for example) are receiving a pay increase. The country is not run on unskilled labour. What I am trying to say is that minimum wage decreases will serve not to increase Ireland's competitiveness. Only when those who are highly skilled and in receipt of the highest wages are receiving the sharpest cuts will that happen.

Secondly you say that social welfare benefits are too high. I am and have for a long time worked in the private sector. So if I should loose my job in the short term, I should loose all my assets also? Someone may be out of work for 6 months which is ample time to fall behind in mortgage repayments and loose their home. Do you believe that to be fair or equitable??

It is very easy to criticise the level of social welfare spending, but it is not that black and white. Not everybody wants to be on social welfare. Some people take pride in the fact that they do not rely on state payments, and it can be a soul destroying experience. But of course there are people who will take advantage of the system.

I would rather work for minimum wage than receive social welfare and this is coming from someone who has a very high probability of joining that que in a couple of months.

astrofool

The cost of producing/selling a product is highly dependent on the wages being spent on the people who produce/sell the product (+ capital assets + services needed(phones etc.).

The high public sector wages in this country, push up the private sector wages (who look for a greater return due to less security of tenure). This in turn pushes the costs of all goods in the country higher.

Dole should be based on what you have contributed via PRSI (hence the insurance part), and not try and treat everyone equally, other countries, such as Germany do this, it works because people's lifestyle costs are based on their wages, when they lose their wages, that lifestyle becomes unmaintainable until they get another job, basing dole payments on previous contributions makes this easier to manage. Eventually if that person stays out of work, they will have to sell all their assets to survive, as their dole payments get reduced down to the lowest level.

femur61

Martyr wrote: »

The inflated wages of public sector employees is the primary cause of uncompetitiveness in this country.

Minimum wage has nothing to do with it.

99% of the people asking for a reduction wouldn't work minimum wage, they'd sit on the dole instead, or sit in some cushy office scratching their balls, surfing twitter and bebo, all at the expense of tha taxpayer.

What has public sector wages got to do with foreign investment in Ireland. Most of these companies are in low cost manufacturing so would make sence to go elsewhere.

Also, in the Letters section in tne Independent an American couple couldn't understand how a cup of coffe here is €3 and the same in California is 50 cent!

ragg

The high dole and minimum wage are what is keeping this country from downright disaster.

people who have worked hard and paid a lot into this system over the years, are they now expected to lose their homes, their cars, their dignaty? all because they lost their jobs? We don't live in the united states.. Also the knock on effects of that would be a complete firesale of all property and assets in this country, leaving all of us in an even worse position.

the minimum wage for a 39hour weeks is now almost 340 quid a week - not really that much, is it?

1huge1

Martyr wrote: »

The inflated wages of public sector employees is the primary cause of uncompetitiveness in this country.

Minimum wage has nothing to do with it.

99% of the people asking for a reduction wouldn't work minimum wage, they'd sit on the dole instead, or sit in some cushy office scratching their balls, surfing twitter and bebo, all at the expense of tha taxpayer.

Thats why social welfare should be decreased aswel.

ceret

loctite wrote: »

For a start, explain how public sector wages adds to uncompetitiveness with a view to job creation in the private sector???

Highly paid public sector worker have more money to spend, so they push up the prices, so the private sector has to pay more in salary.

MysticalRain

Why not put a cap on wages?? I read 3 years ago about the semi - state owned company, the ESB. The average wage in Poolbeg was in the region of 160k a year and that the average in Kilrush was circa 140K euro. If all these manufacturing facilities are employing similar skill types I can understand why they are leaving.

Talk about comparing apples to oranges. A heavily unionized semi-state company Vs non-unionized factories run by multinationals. Added to the fact that the ESB is a unique organization that can hold the entire nation to ransom anytime they go on strike.

Cut the minimum wage and you're only reducing people's incentive to get off the dole and work. Of course you'll say we should cut the dole as well. But with so many people on the live register at the moment, that's probably a recipe for revolution - something which might not actually be a bad thing I might add.

No matter how much we cut wages to the bone, we will never be able to compete with Eastern Europe or developing countries for low skilled manufacturing jobs. Our best hope is to develop our own high-tech export sector because that's where the real future lies, and those kinds of jobs can more than justify higher wages.

eamonnm79

MysticalRain wrote: »

Talk about comparing apples to oranges. A heavily unionized semi-state company Vs non-unionized factories run by multinationals. Added to the fact that the ESB is a unique organization that can hold the entire nation to ransom anytime they go on strike.

Cut the minimum wage and you're only reducing people's incentive to get off the dole and work. Of course you'll say we should cut the dole as well. But with so many people on the live register at the moment, that's probably a recipe for revolution - something which might not actually be a bad thing I might add.

No matter how much we cut wages to the bone, we will never be able to compete with Eastern Europe or developing countries for low skilled manufacturing jobs. Our best hope is to develop our own high-tech export sector because that's where the real future lies, and those kinds of jobs can more than justify higher wages.

Amen Brother

I thought todays Headline in the Independent was a disgrace.
Talk about right wing and misleading.
"12 euro an hour wage gap blamed for job losses"
Further in to the article it reveals that the place where the jobs will be going will be to South africa where the wages are €3 an hour.

Even if we reduced the minwage to €6 an hour and debeers only paid the min wage it would make sense for them to halve their wage bill and head to South Africa.

This disingenious headline only serves to increase the disinformation out there and lead to well meaning idiots calling for a reduction in the minimum wage in order to save jobs such as the ones lost in the above example.

Elmo

I would assume that only EirGrid could halt Electricity around the country with Bord Gais and Airtricity both providing similar services now.

8.65 is a tiny amount of money amounting to 17,668 per annum on a 40 hour week.

Perhaps we should see more reductions in Middle to higher management fees, rather then with the low paid worker.

And yes I know management in most sectors have take a cut but realistically it prob not enough. I mean we don't know how much they get paid, a person on 300,000 PA taking a 15% pay cut isn't really reducing their wages significantly IMO. 255,000 PA is still a huge amount of money.

loctite

ceret wrote: »

Highly paid public sector worker have more money to spend, so they push up the prices, so the private sector has to pay more in salary.

That argument doesn't hold imo. If Consumption by the public sector dictated prices, well we would expect that the increase in money chasing fewer goods would drive up prices and then private employers can afford to pay higher wages as they are charging higher prices due to increases in demand.

but this apparently isn't the case....

for a start. Marginal propensity to Consume.

loctite

MysticalRain wrote: »

Talk about comparing apples to oranges. A heavily unionized semi-state company Vs non-unionized factories run by multinationals. Added to the fact that the ESB is a unique organization that can hold the entire nation to ransom anytime they go on strike.

Cut the minimum wage and you're only reducing people's incentive to get off the dole and work. Of course you'll say we should cut the dole as well. But with so many people on the live register at the moment, that's probably a recipe for revolution - something which might not actually be a bad thing I might add.

No matter how much we cut wages to the bone, we will never be able to compete with Eastern Europe or developing countries for low skilled manufacturing jobs. Our best hope is to develop our own high-tech export sector because that's where the real future lies, and those kinds of jobs can more than justify higher wages.

I wasn't comparing anything to anything.....
I was highlighting that Public sector workers who apparently receive a lower pay to that in the private sector (apparently) are receiving such high wages, and if this is the same within private sector that it is completely understandable why firms will leave this country seeking a lower cost base.

Even developing a high skill/technological capacity won't help. The country is still too expensive. There are similar standards of technological innovation and capacity in India etc at a far lower cost. Tell me how that will justify a higher wage??

hellboy99

Just listened to this now and all I can say is fair dues to him saying what a lot of people are thinking. We wouldn't need to see the minimum wage cut if carry on like the below wasn't happening, especially giving the times we're in :rolleyes:

Doctor says pay increase is 'absurd'

Dr John Barton, consultant physician at Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe, says his €25,000 pay increase is ridiculous under current economic conditions

Link:
http://www.rte.ie/news/news1pm/player.html?20090723,2584547,2584548,real,209

Keep the rich, rich and make the not so well off and poor suffer :mad:

Elmo

You also have to take in to consideration the exchange rate.

A few months ago our 8.65 was worth 8.65 in the north, it is currently worth 7.45 pounds 5.73 is the current UK min wage. A current 1.72 pound more than the UK, and it could and will fluctuate again.

I generally hate when people look at the north when we know in the past the euro was only worth 62p it is currently worth 86p.

In relation to people that have just been let go the 240 should remain as is since they will be trying to get out of the poverty trap as soon as the can, but a reduction for the long term unemployed needs to be done with care.

As I said lets see the big shots reduce their wages down to around 150,000 euro first.

hellboy99

Elmo wrote: »

As I said lets see the big shots reduce their wages down to around 150,000 euro first.

Dam right, but can't see that happening :rolleyes:

MysticalRain

loctite wrote: »

I wasn't comparing anything to anything.....
I was highlighting that Public sector workers who apparently receive a lower pay to that in the private sector (apparently) are receiving such high wages, and if this is the same within private sector that it is completely understandable why firms will leave this country seeking a lower cost base.

Even developing a high skill/technological capacity won't help. The country is still too expensive. There are similar standards of technological innovation and capacity in India etc at a far lower cost. Tell me how that will justify a higher wage??

I don't really understand the first point you're making, other than that it seems to be some vague notion that we should keep cutting wages until the average Irish worker is paid the same as someone in Bangladesh or India (it ain't going to happen). Those folks are always going to beat us in any race to the bottom, and if it isn't Indians who are cheaper, it will be Filipinos or Vietnamese.

The other point I'll add that there are plenty of other relatively high cost economies out there that have a vibrant, and innovation-led export sector -- Singapore, Israel, Taiwan for instance. Of course to achieve that requires less greedy short-term thinking and more forward planning from our politicians and entrepreneurs. Perhaps if those people who spent money buying and selling houses to each other during the height of the Celtic Tiger had instead invested some of that money in developing real businesses, we wouldn't be in such a mess in the first place.

loctite

MysticalRain wrote: »

I don't really understand the first point you're making, other than that it seems to be some vague notion that we should keep cutting wages until the average Irish worker is paid the same as someone in Bangladesh or India (it ain't going to happen). Those folks are always going to beat us in any race to the bottom, and if it isn't Indians who are cheaper, it will be Filipinos or Vietnamese.

The other point I'll add that there are plenty of other relatively high cost economies out there that have a vibrant, and innovation-led export sector -- Singapore, Israel, Taiwan for instance. Of course to achieve that requires less greedy short-term thinking and more forward planning from our politicians and entrepreneurs. Perhaps if those people who spent money buying and selling houses to each other during the height of the Celtic Tiger had instead invested some of that money in developing real businesses, we wouldn't be in such a mess in the first place.

No, I don't have a "vague notion" (whatever you mean by that) of cutting wages to the point that we become par with India/ Bangladesh. But yet some people think that it is perfectly acceptable to propose cuts to the min wage & social welfare and still allow those in relatively high paying jobs to continue to receive pay increases....

Totally agree, there is some serious short termism going on....

I also agree that there needs to be an innovative export led sector, but other low cost economies are and have been investing in such for a substantial period of time..

Ashlinggnilsia

Martyr wrote: »

The inflated wages of public sector employees is the primary cause of uncompetitiveness in this country.

Minimum wage has nothing to do with it.

99% of the people asking for a reduction wouldn't work minimum wage, they'd sit on the dole instead, or sit in some cushy office scratching their balls, surfing twitter and bebo, all at the expense of tha taxpayer.

I agree about your point on minimum wage?

I do not agree one bit about your public sector employees comment.

And clearly you are talking about public sector employees once again in you last statement!!

I would love for you to work in a government office for a day at the front counter and have to deal with the public...bet you couldnt hack it.... You are extremely uneducated when you talk about it being a cushy job!

Elmo

Ashlinggnilsia wrote: »

I would love for you to work in a government office for a day at the front counter and have to deal with the public...bet you couldnt hack it.... You are extremely uneducated when you talk about it being a cushy job!

To an extent the Public Service and in particular the Civil Service is a cushy number. No one is talking about how hard the public service work, they just have issues surrounding the fact that many other in other sectors have taken pay cuts or lost jobs and have seen their pensions disappear. Unlike the Public Sector that have seen very little change happening for them.

However the public sector did suffer through the boom, with wages that could not compete with the private sector. It is unlike that a person who had a high job in the private sector would want to go into a high job in the public sector where wages are capped and there are no bonus, no shares and no cars (unless your the General Sectary of a Dept I believe you would get a car at the very least, perhaps even a driver).

Would you start job on the following wages during the boom

24,000 Clerical Officer
30,000 Executive Officer (Lower Management)
49,000 Higher Executive Officer (Middle Management)
43,000 Admin Officer (Middle Management)
72,000 Assistant Principal (Management)
86,000 Principal (Head of Division)
131,000 Assistant Secretary
177,000 Deputy Secretary
221,000 SECRETARY GENERAL (Head of Department)

IMO AP up are getting too much and should see their pay reduce significantly. Above are only starting wages, and are before income tax, pension levy, income levy, PAYE and PRSI.

I note that some Public Servants don't pay PRSI but they don't get the same benefits.

They could freeze the public sector.

irish_bob

Ashlinggnilsia wrote: »

I agree about your point on minimum wage?

I do not agree one bit about your public sector employees comment.

And clearly you are talking about public sector employees once again in you last statement!!

I would love for you to work in a government office for a day at the front counter and have to deal with the public...bet you couldnt hack it.... You are extremely uneducated when you talk about it being a cushy job!

since when was having a different opinion been equal to being uneducated

Ashlinggnilsia

irish_bob wrote: »

since when was having a different opinion been equal to being uneducated

uneducated in the sense that it was being said the public sector workers sat on their arses all day and went on the internet and if ya were to work in a public sector office you would know that is simply untrue!! Its like sayin you know what is inside a box when you havent even looked!

Ashlinggnilsia

Elmo wrote: »

To an extent the Public Service and in particular the Civil Service is a cushy number. No one is talking about how hard the public service work, they just have issues surrounding the fact that many other in other sectors have taken pay cuts or lost jobs and have seen their pensions disappear. Unlike the Public Sector that have seen very little change happening for them.

However the public sector did suffer through the boom, with wages that could not compete with the private sector. It is unlike that a person who had a high job in the private sector would want to go into a high job in the public sector where wages are capped and there are no bonus, no shares and no cars (unless your the General Sectary of a Dept I believe you would get a car at the very least, perhaps even a driver).

Would you start job on the following wages during the boom

24,000 Clerical Officer
30,000 Executive Officer (Lower Management)
49,000 Higher Executive Officer (Middle Management)
43,000 Admin Officer (Middle Management)
72,000 Assistant Principal (Management)
86,000 Principal (Head of Division)
131,000 Assistant Secretary
177,000 Deputy Secretary
221,000 SECRETARY GENERAL (Head of Department)

IMO AP up are getting too much and should see their pay reduce significantly. Above are only starting wages, and are before income tax, pension levy, income levy, PAYE and PRSI.

I note that some Public Servants don't pay PRSI but they don't get the same benefits.

They could freeze the public sector.

Ya i pay freeze would be grand it just pisses me off when i hear ppl sayin public sector do sweet **** all and dont deserve the money i get, i worked in the public sector in a council for 11 months i was a clerical officer, guess what happened ... they were told they had to make cut backs all temporary staff are gone. That meaning anybody not permenant had to go i was one of them so they did make cuts, because i was one of them.

My father also works for them no clerical work engineering, hes down in his wages, my mother is a teacher she has no pension set up for herself and there is no point in it now!! Last june 5 teachers left took early retirement because of with this pension levy thing they brought in they would be better off leavin because they would be gettin nothing from it!!

Teachers are spending the extra time doing work they would have been paid to do before but nobody is doing now because they were told they dont have the funds! If your boss said to you hey i need you to do an extra hours work everyday but im not payin you for it? dont think any1 would be too impressed with that!!

Plus out of curiosity one day i remember when i was in work i went lookin through a phone book thing we had and it gave everyone in my buidings title and to be fair in my building anyway not talkin about any other offices but in mine they were mostly clerical officers the smallest bracket! Thought that was just my building!!

The only reason im annoyed about this public sector slaggin match is basically because i was there i was one of them not anymore but i ws and they have to put up with some load of abuse ... I think people forget they are people do they are just doing their jobs yano! Pay freeze thats fair enough!

Alot of offices are severly understaffed aswel which is a joke like the building i was in there is nobody to cover maternity leave or sickness or anything like that!! So everyone else is fairly ****ed over with the amount of work they have to do...again thats just the building i was in!! Cant speak for everyone but thats just my opinion anyway!!

irish_bob

Ashlinggnilsia wrote: »

uneducated in the sense that it was being said the public sector workers sat on their arses all day and went on the internet and if ya were to work in a public sector office you would know that is simply untrue!! Its like sayin you know what is inside a box when you havent even looked!

ive often went into different state depts in this country , county council office , dept of agriculture

Ashlinggnilsia

irish_bob wrote: »

ive often went into different state depts in this country , county council office , dept of agriculture

Whats your point? i wasnt making the point at you to begin with i was making the point at the person that said all they do is sit on their ass, scratch their balls and go on twitter etc.

It is ignorant to say that you know such and such a job is easy and talk about what they do or do not do if you havent even done it yourself!!

irish_bob

Ashlinggnilsia wrote: »

Whats your point? i wasnt making the point at you to begin with i was making the point at the person that said all they do is sit on their ass, scratch their balls and go on twitter etc.

It is ignorant to say that you know such and such a job is easy and talk about what they do or do not do if you havent even done it yourself!!

ive went into the dept of agri many times as my bro is a farmer , i never got the impression that the staff there were ran of thier feet , same with county council offices , besides thier working hours( dept of agri ) are 9.30 am to 4.30 pm with 90 minutes for lunch , add to that the fact that thier are 6000 civil servants in the dept of agri , one for every 16 full time farmers , under staffing is hardly a problem

ps , how do you know civil servants work hard , your a student

Ashlinggnilsia

irish_bob wrote: »

ive went into the dept of agri many times as my bro is a farmer , i never got the impression that the staff there were ran of thier feet , same with county council offices , besides thier working hours( dept of agri ) are 9.30 am to 4.30 pm with 90 minutes for lunch , add to that the fact that thier are 6000 civil servants in the dept of agri , one for every 16 full time farmers , under staffing is hardly a problem

ps , how do you know civil servants work hard , your a student

Check out the comment before yours! the one i left at 21.49 should answer your questions

irish_bob

Ashlinggnilsia wrote: »

Check out the comment before yours! the one i left at 21.49 should answer your questions

i checked it out , its full of untruths and myths about everyone in the private sector having a company car and thier wages having been higher than those working in the public sector