Lisbon 2 The Return!

Sam Vimes

x MarK x wrote: »

Lets hear your arguments for a yes vote then Einstein. Wait till i strap myself in. Quantitive, and qualitive arguments please.

There ya go: http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60775332&postcount=57

x MarK x

Wagon wrote: »

I voted no the first time. And now im told it was the wrong choice. So this time they can fúck off with themselves, I've stopped caring.

Then make sure ta give them a " NO F.UCKIN WAY " this time.

marco_polo

uprising wrote: »

If people called for another referendum it would be one thing, but they didnt, its been forced on us, same as no divorce was forced on us at that time.
I havent seen nor heard of mass demonstrations calling for another go at lisbon, I'm all for power to the people, so stop the crap about divorce and your assumptions of how I think, whatever the people oppose I see as undemocratic.

If you are all for power to the people then you should have no objections to another referendum. We shall see in a few weeks what the final verdict of the people on the treaty + guarantees is.

Sam Vimes

uprising wrote: »

If people called for another referendum it would be one thing, but they didnt, its been forced on us, same as no divorce was forced on us at that time.
I havent seen nor heard of mass demonstrations calling for another go at lisbon, I'm all for power to the people, so stop the crap about divorce and your assumptions of how I think, whatever the people oppose I see as undemocratic.

There were no mass demonstrations for the second divorce referendum and it passed the second time with a margin of 50.28%. Almost half of the country didn't want it so you stop with your attempts to say the two situations are totally different

The results for Lisbon the last time were almost as close and there are calls for another referendum from most of the yes side, most of Europe, the EU itself (although they have no power to force us to have one) and most importantly the government. It was rejected the last time because of ignorance and lies so I want another go at it

Edit: and even if there were calls for another referendum, it's supposed to be no means no. So it's not then?

uprising

Sam Vimes wrote: »

There were no mass demonstrations for the second divorce referendum and it passed the second time with a margin of 50.28%. Almost half of the country didn't want it so you stop with your attempts to say the two situations are totally different

The results for Lisbon the last time were almost as close and there are calls for another referendum from most of the yes side, most of Europe, the EU itself (although they have no power to force us to have one) and most importantly the government. It was rejected the last time because of ignorance and lies so I want another go at it

Edit: and even if there were calls for another referendum, it's supposed to be no means no. So it's not then?

Well if this poll has any significance your going to lose again, and you said "(although they have no power to force us to have one)" well they did, the Irish politicians scupperd to brussells and promised they'd get it right next time, like little kids afraid of the big bully.
Brian Coward the fat headed windbag, this country is fukked, a pack of retards is our option for government, its a lose, lose situation, but hopefully we can get some credability by telling brussells to stick lisbon up their holes.

x MarK x

Sam Vimes wrote: »

There were no mass demonstrations for the second divorce referendum and it passed the second time with a margin of 50.28%. Almost half of the country didn't want it so you stop with your attempts to say the two situations are totally different

The results for Lisbon the last time were almost as close and there are calls for another referendum from most of the yes side, most of Europe, the EU itself (although they have no power to force us to have one) and most importantly the government. It was rejected the last time because of ignorance and lies so I want another go at it

Edit: and even if there were calls for another referendum, it's supposed to be no means no. So it's not then?

Try, to forget about your desires for one moment. Were we told if we rejected the treaty, that it would be dead in the water? Why, within hours of expressing our democratic will, did we know, we would be FORCED to vote again? Doesnt this sh.it scare you at all? Lisbon, they tell us will give us a stronger voice in europe!!! Why then, wasnt our voice heard?

marco_polo

uprising wrote: »

Well if this poll has any significance your going to lose again, and you said "(although they have no power to force us to have one)" well they did, the Irish politicians scupperd to brussells and promised they'd get it right next time, like little kids afraid of the big bully.
Brian Coward the fat headed windbag, this country is fukked, a pack of retards is our option for government, its a lose, lose situation, but hopefully we can get some credability by telling brussells to stick lisbon up their holes.

Spoken like a true European. We had our chance to depose of the Government in the GE and didn't bother. It is two years too late to give them a kicking now. Now is neither the the time not or place for petty point scoring against the Government..

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

x MarK x wrote: »

Lets hear your arguments for a yes vote then Einstein. Wait till i strap myself in. Quantitive, and qualitive arguments please.

His name is Snyper :eek:

uprising

x MarK x wrote: »

Try, to forget about your desires for one moment. Were we told if we rejected the treaty, that it would be dead in the water? Why, within hours of expressing our democratic will, did we know, we would be FORCED to vote again? Doesnt this sh.it scare you at all? Lisbon, they tell us will give us a stronger voice in europe!!! Why then, wasnt our voice heard?

Well said mark, but I fear your pissing into the wind with this lot.

x MarK x

uprising wrote: »

Well if this poll has any significance your going to lose again, and you said "(although they have no power to force us to have one)" well they did, the Irish politicians scupperd to brussells and promised they'd get it right next time, like little kids afraid of the big bully.
Brian Coward the fat headed windbag, this country is fukked, a pack of retards is our option for government, its a lose, lose situation, but hopefully we can get some credability by telling brussells to stick lisbon up their holes.

Exactly. Are we now afraid to say no to the EU for fear they can hurt us with the powers they hold, or do we give in like cowards, and ironically, give them even more power over us? Article 48, should have you all very weary, once ratified, the treaty becomes self amending, in other words, they wont need your imput any more, the treaty can be altered without you having any say. HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dinner

uprising wrote: »

"(although they have no power to force us to have one)" well they did, the Irish politicians scupperd to brussells and promised they'd get it right next time, like little kids afraid of the big bully.

No, the government went back to the EU, explained the reasons that were given for the no vote, got guarantees for those reasons and are now having another referendum with those protocols included.

There was NO bullying. What part of that don't you understand. It is a very simple, straight forward concept that seems to alude you.

Any delusions of bullying and anti-democratic referenda are just that. Delusions.

marco_polo

x MarK x wrote: »

Try, to forget about your desires for one moment. Were we told if we rejected the treaty, that it would be dead in the water? Why, within hours of expressing our democratic will, did we know, we would be FORCED to vote again? Doesnt this sh.it scare you at all? Lisbon, they tell us will give us a stronger voice in europe!!! Why then, wasnt our voice heard?

It was because we did not ratify the treaty.

We were not forced to vote again but the Govenment decided that it would be worthwhile to get some clarifications some of the issues of concern and present them to the people again. Now we have some further clarifications and we are voting on Lisbon + the Guarentees. Perhaps it will not be enough, if so then that will be that.

There will still be two options on the ballot and you are free to chose whichever one you please.

Dinner

x MarK x wrote: »

Exactly. Are we now afraid to say no to the EU for fear they can hurt us with the powers they hold, or do we give in like cowards, and ironically, give them even more power over us? Article 48, should have you all very weary, once ratified, the treaty becomes self amending, in other words, they wont need your imput any more, the treaty can be altered without you having any say. HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wrong. Have a look at para 4 of Article 48.

x MarK x

uprising wrote: »

Well said mark, but I fear your pissing into the wind with this lot.

Cheers, i kno what ya mean. It was pointed out by the yes men ( no pun intended ), that alot of people voted NO because they didnt understand the treaty. I would argue the opposite, most the yes men, are simply listening to all the FF morons, and thinking it "must" be good for Ireland, but havnt a clue really.

marco_polo

x MarK x wrote: »

Exactly. Are we now afraid to say no to the EU for fear they can hurt us with the powers they hold, or do we give in like cowards, and ironically, give them even more power over us? Article 48, should have you all very weary, once ratified, the treaty becomes self amending, in other words, they wont need your imput any more, the treaty can be altered without you having any say. HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sorry but the lies really won't wash this time around. There is nothing that can change within the treaty without the express agreement of all 27 member states.

uprising

marco_polo wrote: »

Spoken like a true European. We had our chance to depose of the Government in the GE and didn't bother. It is two years too late to give them a kicking now. Now is neither the the time not or place for petty point scoring against the Government..

Listen marco polo, depose of one pack of windbags for what?, enda fukking kenny, I'd love to choke that cuunt and most leaders of the other parties for that matter, If I had my way I'd fukk a few pipebombs into the bar in dail eireann and start afresh with real fukking leaders.

marco_polo

uprising wrote: »

Listen marco polo, depose of one pack of windbags for what?, enda fukking kenny, I'd love to choke that cuunt and most leaders of the other parties for that matter, If I had my way I'd fukk a few pipebombs into the bar in dail eireann and start afresh with real fukking leaders.

Creepy.

x MarK x

Dinner wrote: »

No, the government went back to the EU, explained the reasons that were given for the no vote, got guarantees for those reasons and are now having another referendum with those protocols included.

There was NO bullying. What part of that don't you understand. It is a very simple, straight forward concept that seems to alude you.

Any delusions of bullying and anti-democratic referenda are just that. Delusions.

Funny that, i vividly remember Sarkozy saying they (us) will have to vote again, before fat coward went back to them, with his tail between his fat legs.

marco_polo

uprising wrote: »

Listen marco polo, depose of one pack of windbags for what?, enda fukking kenny, I'd love to choke that cuunt and most leaders of the other parties for that matter, If I had my way I'd fukk a few pipebombs into the bar in dail eireann and start afresh with real fukking leaders.

x MarK x wrote: »

Funny that, i vividly remember Sarkozy saying they (us) will have to vote again, before fat coward went back to them, with his tail between his fat legs.

I'm off to bed now lads this level of debate is becoming far two sopisticated for me.

Any constructive opinions about Politics before I go?

uprising

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article4251614.ece

From The Times

July 2, 2008


The Lisbon treaty: Sarkozy's next move

With the rejection of the treaty; France must rethink its EU presidency





Recommend?
Relishing the spotlight, President Sarkozy is rarely loath to travel to a foreign capital to demonstrate France's international initiatives. But he cannot be pleased at having to add Warsaw yesterday to his planned visit to Dublin next month to discuss what to do about the Lisbon treaty. For what first appeared as an exercise in arm-twisting to force Ireland to reconsider its veto now looks a lot more complicated.

uprising

marco_polo wrote: »

I'm off to bed now lads this level of debate is becoming far two sopisticated for me.

Any constructive opinions about Politics before I go?

Yes it must be TOO sophisticated for you, considering you cant spell it. And you'd have us believe you understand everything the experts tell you about lisbon......sleep well.

marco_polo

uprising wrote: »

Yes it must be TOO sophisticated for you, considering you cant spell it. And you'd have us believe you understand everything the experts tell you about lisbon......sleep well.

Ah spelling, the last resort of a desperate poster. Goodnight

I make no apologies for it at 4am.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

uprising wrote: »

Listen marco polo, depose of one pack of windbags for what?, enda fukking kenny, I'd love to choke that cuunt and most leaders of the other parties for that matter, If I had my way I'd fukk a few pipebombs into the bar in dail eireann and start afresh with real fukking leaders.

:eek:

x MarK x

marco_polo wrote: »

I'm off to bed now lads this level of debate is becoming far two sopisticated for me.

Any constructive opinions about Politics before I go?

Bring your toys with ya. Whinger

s. lacker

I voted yes the first time and will vote yes the second time! Think it is a bit mad that it is still up for debate after it was rejected democratically but.... actually I got nothing!

Luke Creed

Ill be voting no, I voted no last time but now i am voting no for the simple fact that it is not a democracy to ask you to vote again. Its shocking.

meglome

Luke Creed wrote: »

Ill be voting no, I voted no last time but now i am voting no for the simple fact that it is not a democracy to ask you to vote again. Its shocking.

I'm really not a fan of voting more than once on a referendum but the reality is there's nothing that says we can't. In fact we've got a history of voting more than once on the same or similar issues. Where does it say in a democracy you only vote once on something? No one needs to like it but shocking or undemocratic it isn't.

BlitzKrieg

uprising wrote: »

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article4251614.ece

From The Times

July 2, 2008


The Lisbon treaty: Sarkozy's next move

With the rejection of the treaty; France must rethink its EU presidency


Recommend?
Relishing the spotlight, President Sarkozy is rarely loath to travel to a foreign capital to demonstrate France's international initiatives. But he cannot be pleased at having to add Warsaw yesterday to his planned visit to Dublin next month to discuss what to do about the Lisbon treaty. For what first appeared as an exercise in arm-twisting to force Ireland to reconsider its veto now looks a lot more complicated.

I am in very bad humour (thread elswhere on why) so I'll be brief

Sarkozy is no longer EU president, it now sits with the czech republic and thats over soon. Sarkozy for lack of better term was a bad president of the european council that we were forced to accept because of the current system, and six months later he is no longer president, at the moment he is nothing more then prime minister of france.

Exactly. Are we now afraid to say no to the EU for fear they can hurt us with the powers they hold,

We said no, what we failed to do was capatilize on a genuine policy on what should be done next. THe closest we got was Sinn Fein's outline which for the most part resolved in the gauruntees.

Where were libertas, Coir, the socialist party etc? None of them offered any form of alternative. No one even tried to argue with the other member states the benefits of the current status quo.

You cannot vote no and simply walk away in any referendum, you need to offer a definite answer to the issue.

In the case of Lisbon there was no such answer allowing a government to walk in and claim ignorance as the answer.

You have no one to blame but yourself for the 2nd referendum.

or do we give in like cowards, and ironically, give them even more power over us? Article 48, should have you all very weary, once ratified, the treaty becomes self amending, in other words, they wont need your imput any more, the treaty can be altered without you having any say. HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to actually read the f*cking treaty. The key phrase is:

after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with
their respective constitutional requirements.

Our constitutional requirement is if any transfer of sovergnity occurs we must have a referendum.

So stop spreading such blatant lies and read the treaty before you say such absolute bollocks!

Sam Vimes

uprising wrote: »

Well if this poll has any significance your going to lose again, and you said "(although they have no power to force us to have one)" well they did, the Irish politicians scupperd to brussells and promised they'd get it right next time, like little kids afraid of the big bully.
Brian Coward the fat headed windbag, this country is fukked, a pack of retards is our option for government, its a lose, lose situation, but hopefully we can get some credability by telling brussells to stick lisbon up their holes.

When all else fails, change the subject. So lets see, we showed all of your reasons for voting no were not true, we showed that the EU can not just go back on the guarantees because the example you gave was just misread, we showed that a second referendum to allow people to change their minds is not undemocratic and you resorted to calling the EU bullies. I think this was overall a success

x MarK x wrote: »

Try, to forget about your desires for one moment. Were we told if we rejected the treaty, that it would be dead in the water? Why, within hours of expressing our democratic will, did we know, we would be FORCED to vote again? Doesnt this sh.it scare you at all? Lisbon, they tell us will give us a stronger voice in europe!!! Why then, wasnt our voice heard?

No it doesn't scare me because the reasons for voting no were, by and large, bullsh!t. I'm glad we got another chance at it and hopefully this time the government will get off their arses and tell people the truth so they stop believing all these lies and misconceptions

At least 33% of people voted no because of conscription, abortion, neutrality, taxation and other non issues. The government now has guarantees that these were never issues and anyone who said otherwise was lying so now that 33% have no reason to vote no.

42% said they voted no because they didn't understand it. They've now had two years to familiarise themselves with it. They don't have to read every line, that's been done by enough people on both sides of the debate and they've pointed out the few contentious issues. These people can no longer use the excuse that they don't understand it so now 77% of no voters have no reason to vote no anymore. In light of that, a second referendum is more than justified

source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0911/1221039067528.html

Sam Vimes

Luke Creed wrote: »

Ill be voting no, I voted no last time but now i am voting no for the simple fact that it is not a democracy to ask you to vote again. Its shocking.

I suppose I'll ask you the same question I asked uprising:

Ireland had two referendums on divorce. The first was overwhelmingly rejected and the second passed with a margin of 50.28%. Do you think it was undemocratic to have a second referendum and, more importantly, do you think that divorce should always and forever be illegal in Ireland because it was rejected in a referendum?

Also, in light of my post above which shows that at least 77% of no voters don't have a good reason to vote no anymore, can you not see the justification for asking them again?