Lisbon 2 The Return!

tolosenc

I'm gonna vote no because I'm a rebel without a cause.

Paddy Samurai

I'll be voting no , but i reckon with so many scared people the yes vote will win this time.

I wonder when the yes gang win,will they hold vote again so the no crowd get another go.

towel401

Mere humans are not to be trusted, let the computer rule the world

Failing that, lets get a group of experts (i.e Biffo, Sarkozy and Mary Hanafin) to do everything for us.

The people should just shut up and do what the government tells them to

The EU superstate is inevitable and it is selfish for us to hold up progress towards this

After all the money the EU has given us, they deserve our sovereignty

Once the EU superstate is brought into existence, mandatory chip implants will be necessary.

Mandatory chip implants will reduce crime to zero and allow everyone to live the boring family life they always wanted to.

If a country joins a trading bloc, it should expect to eventually give itself up to something like the impending EU superstate.

Diversity is no longer acceptable in this modern world

If you like free movement of goods and people in the EU, you must also like the EU making all the decisions for you.

Every miniscule detail of your life must have some law related to this. This law must be made enforceable through technology.

Sam Vimes

Why will you be voting no?

thelordofcheese

towel401 wrote: »

Mere humans are not to be trusted, let the computer rule the world

Failing that, lets get a group of experts (i.e Biffo, Sarkozy and Mary Hanafin) to do everything for us.

The people should just shut up and do what the government tells them to

The EU superstate is inevitable and it is selfish for us to hold up progress towards this

After all the money the EU has given us, they deserve our sovereignty

Once the EU superstate is brought into existence, mandatory chip implants will be necessary.

Mandatory chip implants will reduce crime to zero and allow everyone to live the boring family life they always wanted to.

If a country joins a trading bloc, it should expect to eventually give itself up to something like the impending EU superstate.

Diversity is no longer acceptable in this modern world

If you like free movement of goods and people in the EU, you must also like the EU making all the decisions for you.

Every miniscule detail of your life must have some law related to this. This law must be made enforceable through technology.

The way that the internet manages to create hyperbole of such magnitude has always intrigued me.
If only we could harness this all this hot air, we'd never want for electricity ever again.

uprising

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Why will you be voting no?

Why do you ask Sam?, so you can post another link to a previous post.
Your a little obsessed with this thread I think, what will your life become if "yes" wins?, you'll lose your need to live.
Well dont worry you'll have plenty to quote again, I'll start "Lisbon 3, The boomerang" just for you.

towel401

thelordofcheese wrote: »

The way that the internet manages to create hyperbole of such magnitude has always intrigued me.
If only we could harness this all this hot air, we'd never want for electricity ever again.

a large balloon should do the trick.. hold it directly above the internets

Sam Vimes

uprising wrote: »

Why do you ask Sam?, so you can post another link to a previous post.
Your a little obsessed with this thread I think, what will your life become if "yes" wins?, you'll lose your need to live.
Well dont worry you'll have plenty to quote again, I'll start "Lisbon 3, The boomerang" just for you.

I ask because after two years of searching I thought that paddy there might give me a good reason to vote no. I live in hope

But if he posts the same old irrelevant points that get repeated ad nauseum despite being corrected every time they're posted, I'll just copy and paste a stock answer rather than waste my time

Nice to see you've now moved over to calling me obsessed rather than explaining why you think I'm wrong btw. Ad hominem attacks, the last desperate flailing of a defeated man

towel401

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I ask because after two years of searching I thought that paddy there might give me a good reason to vote no. I live in hope

But if he posts the same old irrelevant points that get repeated ad nauseum despite being correctied every time they're posted, I'll just copy and paste a stock answer rather than waste my time

so if you want to have a dig at the EU and possibly biffo what way are you supposed to vote?

Sam Vimes

towel401 wrote: »

so if you want to have a dig at the EU and possibly biffo what way are you supposed to vote?

If you want to have a dig at the EU for some reason you should vote no but why do you want to have a dig at them?

If you want to have a dig at biffo, vote for Susan Boyle on Britain's got talent, because Britain's got talent has exactly as much to do with biffo as the Lisbon treaty

Screaming Eagle

No here too.

MaGrOtTeN

obl wrote: »

I'm gonna vote no because I'm a rebel without a cause.

Just like too many people, unfortunatly

wylo

voting yes,

but refusing to engage in any argument with people anymore about it, its just too frustrating listening to ridiculous reasons for voting against something that is good for our country. Especially hearing from people that havent even looked at it. Its madness and I just get annoyed when its brought up so now when my friends or family mention it I keep my mouth shut.
This whole Lisbon debate has revealed to me how ignorant and easily led people can be.

Scrambled egg

A "maybe" option on the ballot card would be nice.

granite man

towel401 wrote: »

Mere humans are not to be trusted, let the computer rule the world

Failing that, lets get a group of experts (i.e Biffo, Sarkozy and Mary Hanafin) to do everything for us.

The people should just shut up and do what the government tells them to

The EU superstate is inevitable and it is selfish for us to hold up progress towards this

After all the money the EU has given us, they deserve our sovereignty

Once the EU superstate is brought into existence, mandatory chip implants will be necessary.

Mandatory chip implants will reduce crime to zero and allow everyone to live the boring family life they always wanted to.

If a country joins a trading bloc, it should expect to eventually give itself up to something like the impending EU superstate.

Diversity is no longer acceptable in this modern world

If you like free movement of goods and people in the EU, you must also like the EU making all the decisions for you.

Every miniscule detail of your life must have some law related to this. This law must be made enforceable through technology.

This.

granite man

wylo wrote: »

voting yes,

but refusing to engage in any argument with people anymore about it, its just too frustrating listening to ridiculous reasons for voting against something that is good for our country. Especially hearing from people that havent even looked at it. Its madness and I just get annoyed when its brought up so now when my friends or family mention it I keep my mouth shut.
This whole Lisbon debate has revealed to me how ignorant and easily led people can be.

That is the problem with most yes voters, they reveal to me how ignorant and easily led they are. The guarantees aren't worth the paper they're written on for a start. They don't even start to explain the undemocratic institutionalisation of the treaty, ie the possibility of Tony warmonger Blair being or any other unelected savage being the head of the EU, they don't mention the fact that Ireland and many other smaller countries are to lose the most part of our voting power to the likes of Germany, UK and France.
Note; because of interest rate changes that helped the German economy Spain, Greece and Ireland have imploded. ie, it didn't matter because we're smaller economies of scale, don't produce much in the way of valuables and at the end of the day are only another 'market' to sell to and exploit with the soon to be cheap labour.
The EU will not 'save us' as you presume with a yes vote. As it stands as nation states everyone has an equal voice. A yes vote means Ireland (and others) lose that. Yes we might get a commissioner( as long as he fits the bill) but sure, we already have one anyway!!! By rejecting this treaty we aren't saying NO to Europe, we're saying we don't agree with the totalitarian element of it. So therefore, rewrite it and come up with something acceptable the people of Europe can agree on that is actually for the benefit of the people, not corporate Europe/World.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG2yzaiqezI&feature=channel
an MEP's opinion. Obviously correct as the yes side hang off the politicians every lying word oops, wrong side, grrr!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqr51vmaEOo&feature=channel
I'd like to point out that there are many beneficial points to the Lisbon treaty but to me the bad outweighs the good. If they want an EU Constitution that much try consulting the people for a change, not the politicians. Cos they aren't that smart, obviously.

tolosenc

granite man wrote: »

Ireland and many other smaller countries are to lose the most part of our voting power to the likes of Germany, UK and France.

Voting weights determined by relative population size? Sounds undemocratic.

RandomName2

Scrambled egg wrote: »

A "maybe" option on the ballot card would be nice.

THERE IS! It may also be listed as 'no', mind you

granite man

obl wrote: »

Voting weights determined by relative population size? Sounds undemocratic.

Not really, we're not talking about county councils here but seperate nation states with their own traditions and cultures. Good trading partners but not much else culturally in common. Lets leave it that way until there's a better plan. This one sucks.

BlitzKrieg

granite man wrote: »

That is the problem with most yes voters, they reveal to me how ignorant and easily led they are.

Have examples of those voting yes being easily led? I could just as easily say no voters are easily led and embarass most sensible no voters by linking to the coir website,

The guarantees aren't worth the paper they're written on for a start.

Except of course to the UN who are playing the role of legal gaurantee to ensure they are upheld.

They don't even start to explain the undemocratic institutionalisation of the treaty, ie the possibility of Tony warmonger Blair being or any other unelected savage being the head of the EU,

This is so wrong its embarrasing. First there is no head of the EU position, the position people are talking about is the President of the European Council Not the EU, in that position the president has no voting power, no executive power and no legaslative power. His role is to play middle man between the institutes, The European Council's job being the council made up of all the head of states is to set a general objective for the EU in the immediate future (such as an improvement on enviromental policy.) its up to the other 3 institutions to attend to the specifics.

And I hate to be the bearer of bad news but good old Tony has held this position at least twice already seeing as it already exists. At the moment its a 6 month position that is rotated among member states, so every time the UK held the position during his very long tenure, Tony was President of the European Council. This system has proven to be a bit inconsistent with such a short term, so the president has been moved to a position on its own which will last 2 and half years. Considering that the current President is the head of a government that collapsed and the prior one was Sarkozy (who just simply p*ssed all the no voters off by being french and loud) I think this is sensible move in the right direction.

And on Tony being the new president, He actually has a very difficult road in front of him for the position, most of the eastern states of Europe from Germany onwards have hinted at supporting Jean-Claude Juncker from luxemberg, And Tony's base in the west is smaller then expected seeing as Ireland hopes to get Bertie elected and France has been on and off on who they would elect. So I doubt he would get the position.

they don't mention the fact that Ireland and many other smaller countries are to lose the most part of our voting power to the likes of Germany, UK and France.

And you dont mention the fact that its a double quantity voting system which means the population aspect of our voting power is only half the requirement the other half ignores population size and has limits on the big population states (Germany UK and France) being able to dictate laws.

But yeah go ahead ignore half the system and complain about the other half because you are not ignorant and easily led

I'd like to point out that there are many beneficial points to the Lisbon treaty but to me the bad outweighs the good.

yet the points you named here are either wrong or missing vital elements. Want to add more genuine bad points to outweigh the good.

Baaa.

cooperguy

granite man wrote: »

That is the problem with most yes voters, they reveal to me how ignorant and easily led they are. The guarantees aren't worth the paper they're written on for a start. They don't even start to explain the undemocratic institutionalisation of the treaty, ie the possibility of Tony warmonger Blair being or any other unelected savage being the head of the EU, they don't mention the fact that Ireland and many other smaller countries are to lose the most part of our voting power to the likes of Germany, UK and France.
Note; because of interest rate changes that helped the German economy Spain, Greece and Ireland have imploded. ie, it didn't matter because we're smaller economies of scale, don't produce much in the way of valuables and at the end of the day are only another 'market' to sell to and exploit with the soon to be cheap labour.
The EU will not 'save us' as you presume with a yes vote. As it stands as nation states everyone has an equal voice. A yes vote means Ireland (and others) lose that. Yes we might get a commissioner( as long as he fits the bill) but sure, we already have one anyway!!! By rejecting this treaty we aren't saying NO to Europe, we're saying we don't agree with the totalitarian element of it. So therefore, rewrite it and come up with something acceptable the people of Europe can agree on that is actually for the benefit of the people, not corporate Europe/World.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG2yzaiqezI&feature=channel
an MEP's opinion. Obviously correct as the yes side hang off the politicians every lying word oops, wrong side, grrr!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqr51vmaEOo&feature=channel
I'd like to point out that there are many beneficial points to the Lisbon treaty but to me the bad outweighs the good. If they want an EU Constitution that much try consulting the people for a change, not the politicians. Cos they aren't that smart, obviously.

Congratulations your the perfect proof of what wylo said! Misrepresenting facts and saying things that are just completely wrong.

Mrmoe

I'll be voting no to stick it to the "man"

G_R

good for u

thats pointless but sure hey, who needs a point

K-9

granite man wrote: »

That is the problem with most yes voters, they reveal to me how ignorant and easily led they are. The guarantees aren't worth the paper they're written on for a start.

Fair enough, people who I respect disagree and I do too. Not lecturing, just going on the chances of the EU disregarding the garentees and what that means.

granite man wrote:

They don't even start to explain the undemocratic institutionalisation of the treaty, ie the possibility of Tony warmonger Blair being or any other unelected savage being the head of the EU, they don't mention the fact that Ireland and many other smaller countries are to lose the most part of our voting power to the likes of Germany, UK and France.

Fair enough. We have more chance now of stopping Blair being EU President now. He has been President before, with no input whatsoever of us.

granite man wrote:

Note; because of interest rate changes that helped the German economy Spain, Greece and Ireland have imploded. ie, it didn't matter because we're smaller economies of scale, don't produce much in the way of valuables and at the end of the day are only another 'market' to sell to and exploit with the soon to be cheap labour.

Interestingly Spain and Ireland are the worst affected along with Latvia. Common denominator, Property! France, Germany are doing OK considering.

Interest rates where raised in 06 and what did our Govt. do? Double Mortgage Interest Relief! The Opposition, reduce Stamp Duty, even worse!

granite man wrote:

The EU will not 'save us' as you presume with a yes vote. As it stands as nation states everyone has an equal voice. A yes vote means Ireland (and others) lose that. Yes we might get a commissioner( as long as he fits the bill) but sure, we already have one anyway!!! By rejecting this treaty we aren't saying NO to Europe, we're saying we don't agree with the totalitarian element of it. So therefore, rewrite it and come up with something acceptable the people of Europe can agree on that is actually for the benefit of the people, not corporate Europe/World.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG2yzaiqezI&feature=channel
an MEP's opinion. Obviously correct as the yes side hang off the politicians every lying word oops, wrong side, grrr!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqr51vmaEOo&feature=channel
I'd like to point out that there are many beneficial points to the Lisbon treaty but to me the bad outweighs the good. If they want an EU Constitution that much try consulting the people for a change, not the politicians. Cos they aren't that smart, obviously.

Maybe you can expand on these points?

uprising

granite man wrote: »

That is the problem with most yes voters, they reveal to me how ignorant and easily led they are. The guarantees aren't worth the paper they're written on for a start. They don't even start to explain the undemocratic institutionalisation of the treaty, ie the possibility of Tony warmonger Blair being or any other unelected savage being the head of the EU, they don't mention the fact that Ireland and many other smaller countries are to lose the most part of our voting power to the likes of Germany, UK and France.
Note; because of interest rate changes that helped the German economy Spain, Greece and Ireland have imploded. ie, it didn't matter because we're smaller economies of scale, don't produce much in the way of valuables and at the end of the day are only another 'market' to sell to and exploit with the soon to be cheap labour.
The EU will not 'save us' as you presume with a yes vote. As it stands as nation states everyone has an equal voice. A yes vote means Ireland (and others) lose that. Yes we might get a commissioner( as long as he fits the bill) but sure, we already have one anyway!!! By rejecting this treaty we aren't saying NO to Europe, we're saying we don't agree with the totalitarian element of it. So therefore, rewrite it and come up with something acceptable the people of Europe can agree on that is actually for the benefit of the people, not corporate Europe/World.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG2yzaiqezI&feature=channel
an MEP's opinion. Obviously correct as the yes side hang off the politicians every lying word oops, wrong side, grrr!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqr51vmaEOo&feature=channel
I'd like to point out that there are many beneficial points to the Lisbon treaty but to me the bad outweighs the good. If they want an EU Constitution that much try consulting the people for a change, not the politicians. Cos they aren't that smart, obviously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG2yzaiqezI&feature=channel


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqr51vmaEOo&feature=channel

Very informative video's there, a voice of reason.

Also watch related video's, the cuunts are trying to con us, oppose these filthy lying animals and stick a no vote up their holes, then kick it so it actually reaches their brains.

And I think the whole of europe should be allowed vote, after all it is them who will ultimately be the recievers of this treaty.
It was hastily rushed through europe till it hit a little stumbling block Ireland.
And as is said a couple of million (Irish voters) should'nt be allowed decide the future of europe, all of the people of europe should decide, not their governments without the slightest consideration of their people, if these scum actually cared for what their people truly want then they would allow them to vote on it.

They actually fear what this little poll seem's to be saying, more people will vote no than those sheep who will vote yes.

Dinner

uprising wrote: »

And I think the whole of europe should be allowed vote, after all it is them who will ultimately be the recievers of this treaty.

Then you better book a flight to Holland and Germany and the rest and demand that they change their constitution to be in line with ours. Or would you consider that sticking your nose in other countries business.

How countries ratify a treaty is up to the individual country, so painting the EU as the big bad bully for for pushing the treaty through without a referendum in each country is wrong.

Do you even care that your wrong?

uprising

Dinner wrote: »

Then you better book a flight to Holland and Germany and the rest and demand that they change their constitution to be in line with ours. Or would you consider that sticking your nose in other countries business.

How countries ratify a treaty is up to the individual country, so painting the EU as the big bad bully for for pushing the treaty through without a referendum in each country is wrong.

Do you even care that your wrong?

I have no desire to tell any country how it should be run, the people of these countries should actually have a say in their own country and how its run, europe is run by a pack of fuccking gangsters, eager to tighten the noose ever so slightly tighter, till the next step and another slight twist.
Foreign (european) troops on our streets isn't as far fetched as you may think, foreign troops are always more likely to control uncivilised people that little bit stricter than domestic troops.
I see all these treaties as stepping stones to a bad place for all of europe, without european people actually having any input whatsoever, it's an undemocratic piece of crap.

Dinner

uprising wrote: »

I have no desire to tell any country how it should be run, the people of these countries should actually have a say in their own country and how its run

Your post, where you say you want all countries to vote on Lisbon says otherwise.

uprising wrote: »

europe is run by a pack of fuccking gangsters, eager to tighten the noose ever so slightly tighter, till the next step and another slight twist.

Ah yeah, the mysterious, faceless European elites determined ruin our lives, to ruin Europe all for... eh well for themselves obviously. Ruining everybody else's lives has always been a path to long life and pure happiness.

uprising wrote: »

Foreign (european) troops on our streets isn't as far fetched as you may think, foreign troops are always more likely to control uncivilised people that little bit stricter than domestic troops.

Haha, sorry for a minute there I mistook you for someone worth having a discussion with. Back to the Conspiracy Theories forum with ye! Unless there's a mysterious clause in Lisbon that establishes an EU army, you're just making **** up based on unfounded beliefs.

And you call other yes voters sheeple. Go watch another YouTube video.

uprising

Dinner wrote: »

Haha, sorry for a minute there I mistook you for someone worth having a discussion with. Back to the Conspiracy Theories forum with ye! Unless there's a mysterious clause in Lisbon that establishes an EU army, you're just making **** up based on unfounded beliefs.

And you call other yes voters sheeple. Go watch another YouTube video.

Haha for a minute, then fuccking think, 10 years ago did you see the world being as it is now?, how much has changed in that time?, how much more is possible to change in another 10 years, if in 1999 I was able to tell you how it would be now, you would also have haha'ed then.
Lets see who'll be haha-ing in 2019, not fuccking many i bet.

BlitzKrieg

I see all these treaties as stepping stones to a bad place for all of europe, without european people actually having any input whatsoever, it's an undemocratic piece of crap.

Except of course every Treaty has increased the powers of the European Parliament...you know that democratic institution that is directly elected by the oh what were they called...Oh yes! the PEOPLE! You know the one where we just had a direct input by electing our MEPS.

And guess what Lisbon continues that trend by increasing the powers of the European Parliament even more in comparison to the other institutions of the EU. Not in comparison with national parliaments though which still hold vastly more power considering they not only are the direct link with their own member state but are also represented directly in two of the four central eu institutions.). So of the four central EU institutions. Three of them are chaired by members directly elected by people, either europe wide ala Parliament or by the people of each individual member state ala the Council of Ministers and European Council. The only one not directly elected by people is the Commission, which is appointed via its President (who is appointed by the European Council) and is required to be approved by the European Parliament.

Gee...So Undemocratic.