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Lisbon 2 The Return!
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leitrim lad wrote: »yes ,i see what you have done , but my point was ,the people of the country want a new government , the existing one wont leave unlesss we open fire on them, so the only way to do this is vote no to lisbon, and then we have enough mounting pressure to make biffo and lenehan emigrate to the other side of the uneverse with that turkey mary coughlan,
and we should be already be on the streets protesting now ,we are too soft for our own good as a nation , our attitude is a sher maybe it will sort it self out, that is why we are being bullied into another waste of taxpayers money in this farce in october
I absolutely agree that we should open fire on them, I just disagree that the Lisbon treaty is the way to do it. It's an issue that effects the whole of Europe and it is not acceptable to deny the treaty to the countries that have ratified it because we don't like Fianna Fail, not to mention that if their catalogue of failures so far aren't enough to make them go, I highly doubt this will. It won't be the final nail in their coffin, it will be just one more nail that drops out of the news a few weeks later. They'll just say that people voted no for other reasons and sweep it under the carpet. It'll be business as usual except for the other ramifications that come from holding Europe to ransom over internal affairs.
We should already be on the streets protesting so let's get out and do it but Lisbon has nothing to do with our dissatisfaction with our government and voting no to Lisbon because you don't like the government is an abuse of the privilege of voting0 -
agreed sam but how do we organise enough people to protest, you know what us paddys are like , very promising but when the job need doing we rearly show up, should we start a thread on it.
i have views on lisbon that i will share with this thread later , that may be of interest0 -
leitrim lad wrote: »i have views on lisbon that i will share with this thread later , that may be of interest
Ah go on tell us - I can't handle the suspence!!0 -
leitrim lad wrote: »agreed sam but how do we organise enough people to protest, you know what us paddys are like , very promising but when the job need doing we rearly show up, should we start a thread on it.
i have views on lisbon that i will share with this thread later , that may be of interest
It is very hard to get Irish people motivated but I think NAMA should do it once they put us €90 billion (?) in debt and slash everything. It's only about a month away now.0 -
leitrim lad wrote: »then we the voters choose a government that will look after the people of the country ,not look after themselves at our expence , and only then will the rest of the world look at us as a nation of heroes who stud up for ourselves against the 50 or so corrupt individuals who have gotten us into this famine ,and are trying to force us to vote in another of their failed treatys, by running it a second time,
They've gotten us into a famine?
That's a bit dramatic, no?0 -
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Right, so your objection is to a situation that currently exists that wouldn't exist if the Irish Navy was doing it's job properly. I can't see the connection to Lisbon tbh.
Which area of voting is moving to QMV that will effect fishing quotas btw? I'm not suggesting that it's not, just curious as to which area covers it and where it says it's moving to QMV?
No, the answer is that no sane person would drop a 300 page document because someone has an objection to one paragraph of it. Instead they renegotiate the paragraph. It's how democracy works.
Seriously, why should they drop articles 1-37 if you say you don't like article 38? How does that make any sense?
No my objection is to a system where we lose 66% of our quota and somehow see that as a fair deal. The changes in the decision making processes within the EU are well detailed and it's not my job to spell them out to you. This is particularly relevant since this year or next will see the introduction of a CFP.
Because we are voting on a treaty, not 38 different ones. The treaty has been rejected, and that no vote is being ignored. The treaty has not been changed, and whether or not that vote was based on ignorance is irrelevant. The claim that democracy is being served in this instance is a lie, and the second referendum is nothing but a farce.0 -
I'm just interested because you're voicing an objection to the treaty and it would be helpful if you could point to the article that covers this so I can read it for myself. Can you help me out?No my objection is to a system where we lose 66% of our quota and somehow see that as a fair deal. The changes in the decision making processes within the EU are well detailed and it's not my job to spell them out to you. This is particularly relevant since this year or next will see the introduction of a CFP.
In fact we are voting on a 300 page document, all of which is negotiable. If Ireland had clearly stated that they had objections to articles A, B and C they would have been renegotiated. It's happened many times in the past, for example with France, Holland and Denmark. Unfortunately Ireland did not clearly state valid objections to the treaty so our government got assurances to settle our fears over possible ramifications that were never going to happen and asked us to reconsider. I fail to see the problemBecause we are voting on a treaty, not 38 different ones.
If someone voted no because they thought it would bring in abortion and now they have assurances that it won't, what is so wrong with asking them to reconsider?
sorry which part of the treaty has been rejected? you can't honestly have a fundamental objection to every word of a 300 page document can you?The treaty has been rejected, and that no vote is being ignored. The treaty has not been changed, and whether or not that vote was based on ignorance is irrelevant. The claim that democracy is being served in this instance is a lie, and the second referendum is nothing but a farce.0 -
I'm just interested because you're voicing an objection to the treaty and it would be helpful if you could point to the article that covers this so I can read it for myself. Can you help me out?
In fact we are voting on a 300 page document, all of which is negotiable. If Ireland had clearly stated that they had objections to articles A, B and C they would have been renegotiated. It's happened many times in the past, for example with France, Holland and Denmark. Unfortunately Ireland did not clearly state valid objections to the treaty so our government got assurances to settle our fears over possible ramifications that were never going to happen and asked us to reconsider. I fail to see the problem
If someone voted no because they thought it would bring in abortion and now they have assurances that it won't, what is so wrong with asking them to reconsider?
sorry which part of the treaty has been rejected? you can't honestly have a fundamental objection to every word of a 300 page document can you?
I will link this to you later I'm supposedly studying at the mo.
But just at your second point. I am curious as to how you can realistically work out why people voted no. Should we all in future be given a questionnaire with a box to fill in;
'Why are you voting against the agreed party line you idiot'
Of course this will not be required for those voting yes in the current treaty.
Asking someone to reconsider is all well and good, but will I or any other no voter have the power to force (not ask) someone to reconsider their yes vote. Do I have the right to argue their reasoning is wrong, and that their vote is not as worthy as my own. Or would that action be hubris on my part, and would it not be better if I shut up and accepted their opinion?
P.S You can't fundamentally agree with every word of a 300 page document can you?;)0 -
It's called "operation cut your nose off to spite your face". I know if this was the divorce referendum I'd find out which way Brian Cowen wanted me to vote and ensure I voted the other way :rolleyes:
You ask why we're being asked to vote again and then you say:
The Irish government has nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty. Irish politics in general has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty. I hate them just as much as you but I realise that the government and the treaty are separate issues. If you voted last time because of your dislike of the government then you have yet to give your opinion on the Lisbon treaty, you gave your opinion on the Irish government which wasn't the question you were asked. And unfortunately it looks like you still think that the Lisbon treaty is a general election. Is it any wonder people are talking about a no vote damaging our reputation when the predominant reasons given for voting no are ones like yours that have nothing to do with the treaty and when we're effectively holding Europe to ransom because we don't like our government, yet we keep voting them back in?
edit: and let's not forget that if you do get this general election you want, unless Sinn Fein become the majority party the new government will be formed by parties that are just as pro-Lisbon. It's madness
Would you not think that maybe all the major political parties are saying that the treaty is good because it actually is good, rather than coming out against something they agree with just to give FF a bloody nose?
Sam, you sound like a politician.
I certainly will not enter into a 'back and forth' with you on this as I have no clue whats the Lisbon treaty is about, no one does. Even the most well read reader of it probably knows about 20% of it's content. We're just being patronized, remember when you were sick as a child and your mam poured some horrible looking Goop on a spoon, you asked... whats that? and the reply was 'Dont ask questions, it's good for you'.
It's the sheer cheek of the Penguins in Dail Eireann to tell us to vote yes, if not we'll suffer the consequences.
No all the way.0 -
Don't know if the following point has been made already, there are too many pages in this thread to read through in the time I have:
We've had reruns of referenda before (not just EU ones). The issue of abortion was put to the people a few times I think, others here can correct me if I'm wrong. I'm too young to remember fully, but as far as I know, divorce is only legal because we held more than one referendum on the topic. The people made their opinion known the first time, and then next time around that opinion had obviously changed, so the result changed too. That's democracy- the current opinion of the people is listened to. Sometimes that means asking the same (or a similar) question more than once.
I don't see why someone would vote no this time and expect that the country (not to mention the continent) would be better off for it.0 -
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There was a survey done and I saw the results. The figure I remember off the top of my head was that 42% of people didn't know enough about the treaty, which is a perfectly valid reason to give them some time to familiarise themselves with it and ask them to reconsider.But just at your second point. I am curious as to how you can realistically work out why people voted no. Should we all in future be given a questionnaire with a box to fill in;
If you feel someone is voting yes for bogus reasons you absolutely have the right to ask them to reconsider, the vote isn't for a few months yet.Asking someone to reconsider is all well and good, but will I or any other no voter have the power to force (not ask) someone to reconsider their yes vote. Do I have the right to argue their reasoning is wrong, and that their vote is not as worthy as my own. Or would that action be hubris on my part, and would it not be better if I shut up and accepted their opinion?
No one ever said your vote wasn't as worthy as anyone else's, just that the people who rejected the treaty could not overall explain why with valid reasoning, hence asking them to reconsider.
btw, if the treaty goes through and enough people feel strongly enough that it has been a disaster we can all lobby our politicians to change aspects of it. But that's not going to happen because the objections are pretty much invariably scaremongeringSoupyNorman wrote: »Sam, you sound like a politician.
I certainly will not enter into a 'back and forth' with you on this as I have no clue whats the Lisbon treaty is about, no one does. Even the most well read reader of it probably knows about 20% of it's content. We're just being patronized, remember when you were sick as a child and your mam poured some horrible looking Goop on a spoon, you asked... whats that? and the reply was 'Dont ask questions, it's good for you'.
It's the sheer cheek of the Penguins in Dail Eireann to tell us to vote yes, if not we'll suffer the consequences.
No all the way.
Another person who thinks their vote on the Lisbon treaty should be effected in some way by their dislike of Irish politicians. And people wonder why we were asked to vote again....0 -
well here is what is scaring the farmers of ireland about europe, and lisbon,
in ireland we are an island with limited amounts of land for producing food stuffs, such as ,milk,and dairies,beef, and cereal, however the irish farmer is as you are all aware against the import of food stuff, from anywhere, especially beef from brazil, but the view of the irish farmer is that europe is trying in a long drawn out process to kill off the irish farmer , and all they produce, and move the production of food to countries like germany, poland ,france,spain and so on, which all have mass areas of land several times bigger than ireland, which would result in ireland being a derelect , little island off the coast of europe where tourists from america go to see where their great grandparents suffered from poverty,
so the ifa are "supporting" lisbon, all for political reasons but the inside view is that only the top brass of the ifa are supporting lisbon to do themselves political favours, and every farmer i have met over the last 15 months since the last polling day has said no to lisbon, as they are afraid it will put them off the land and leave them living on the side of some town, which would desecrate the culture of farming , and really annoy the farmers whos ancestors fought for 700 years for their land off the british,
and might i add that coming from a farming back ground my self ,i know they are a fairly big stuborn organisation, who want little or no change to their way of life.
so thats the opinion of the rural people on lisbon, and thats why i cant see it going trough0 -
How exactly will the treaty allow this to happen?0
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I'll be voting yes.
Can't wait for them to get this European Army thing up and running. :pac:0 -
How exactly will the treaty allow this to happen?
it may not state clearly in the treaty itself that this is the commission plan, however we all know how the farmer thinks, when their nerves are at them ,"everyone is trying to rob them blind" and this weather alot of their nerves are at them, so basically this is the next stepping stone towards turning ireland into a small crannog off the nw coast of europe0 -
Poccington wrote: »I'll be voting yes.
Can't wait for them to get this European Army thing up and running. :pac:
ya it will be the 1940s all over again.
and look what that done,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,0 -
leitrim lad wrote: »well here is what is scaring the farmers of ireland about europe, and lisbon,
in ireland we are an island with limited amounts of land for producing food stuffs, such as ,milk,and dairies,beef, and cereal, however the irish farmer is as you are all aware against the import of food stuff, from anywhere, especially beef from brazil, but the view of the irish farmer is that europe is trying in a long drawn out process to kill off the irish farmer , and all they produce, and move the production of food to countries like germany, poland ,france,spain and so on, which all have mass areas of land several times bigger than ireland, which would result in ireland being a derelect , little island off the coast of europe where tourists from america go to see where their great grandparents suffered from poverty,
so the ifa are "supporting" lisbon, all for political reasons but the inside view is that only the top brass of the ifa are supporting lisbon to do themselves political favours, and every farmer i have met over the last 15 months since the last polling day has said no to lisbon, as they are afraid it will put them off the land and leave them living on the side of some town, which would desecrate the culture of farming , and really annoy the farmers whos ancestors fought for 700 years for their land off the british,
and might i add that coming from a farming back ground my self ,i know they are a fairly big stuborn organisation, who want little or no change to their way of life.
so thats the opinion of the rural people on lisbon, and thats why i cant see it going trough
And where does over €1 Billion in subsidies a year tie in?
Where does free trade fit in?
Sorry to break it to the farmers, but the EU is their best hope!
Same with the fishermen. The EU has protected over fishing and the quotas should be far less. PS. That head of the new farmers organisation that said Lisbon allows Turkey to join should be banned from speaking publically again!Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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did some eejit actually say that?
It wouldn't surprise me in the least. This treaty has become the scapegoat for everything undesirable in the fooking world. Don't like Fianna Fail, vote no! Don't like Fine Gael, vote no! Don't like abortion, vote no! Don't like war, vote no! Don't like taxation, vote no! Don't like Spanish fishermen, vote no! Don't like Israel, vote no! (seriously) Don't like the way other countries ratify treaties, vote no! Don't like the imaginary EU elite, vote no! Ever flown Ryanair, vote no! Got athletes foot, vote no! Feeling a bit tired, vote no! Not arsed finding out what's in the treaty, vote no! Afraid of clauses deliberately hidden away in public view and made available for free download, vote no! Etc ad infinitum
The only explanation I can think of is that the chairman of the group that drafted this treaty is the prince of darkness himself. There is no other way there could possibly be this much evil concentrated into 300 pages0 -
The only explanation I can think of is that the chairman of the group that drafted this treaty is the prince of darkness himself. There is no other way there could possibly be this much evil concentrated into 300 pages
that must be it. And the treaty probably contains some hidden clause we dont know about that allows for him to come to power as supreme leader of the EU once Ireland ratifies it:rolleyes:0 -
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It wouldn't surprise me in the least. This treaty has become the scapegoat for everything undesirable in the fooking world. Don't like Fianna Fail, vote no! Don't like Fine Gael, vote no! Don't like abortion, vote no! Don't like war, vote no! Don't like taxation, vote no! Don't like Spanish fishermen, vote no! Don't like Israel, vote no! (seriously) Don't like the way other countries ratify treaties, vote no! Don't like the imaginary EU elite, vote no! Ever flown Ryanair, vote no! Got athletes foot, vote no! Feeling a bit tired, vote no! Not arsed finding out what's in the treaty, vote no! Afraid of clauses deliberately hidden away in public view and made available for free download, vote no! Etc ad infinitum
The only explanation I can think of is that the chairman of the group that drafted this treaty is the prince of darkness himself. There is no other way there could possibly be this much evil concentrated into 300 pages
Can I quote that post?
Then I can be cool?
I know voting No is cool and the sheeple are voting No because it's cool.
Some cool man said voting NO is cool.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Richard Cranium, the divorce/abortion referenda are not comparable as there were 10 year gaps between the first/second referenda in those cases. Also, they were not being held on foot of pressure from foreign powers, unlike Lisbon. I'd like to thank my fellow no voters in this and the other poll for not wavering into the face of the Establishment big guns. We are going to be blitzed by them in the coming weeks, but I still hold out strong hopes of victory. Let it be our finest hour. I think no voters are very determined to preserve our remaining independence.0
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It wouldn't surprise me in the least. This treaty has become the scapegoat for everything undesirable in the fooking world. Don't like Fianna Fail, vote no! Don't like Fine Gael, vote no! Don't like abortion, vote no! Don't like war, vote no! Don't like taxation, vote no! Don't like Spanish fishermen, vote no! Don't like Israel, vote no! (seriously) Don't like the way other countries ratify treaties, vote no! Don't like the imaginary EU elite, vote no! Ever flown Ryanair, vote no! Got athletes foot, vote no! Feeling a bit tired, vote no! Not arsed finding out what's in the treaty, vote no! Afraid of clauses deliberately hidden away in public view and made available for free download, vote no! Etc ad infinitum
The only explanation I can think of is that the chairman of the group that drafted this treaty is the prince of darkness himself. There is no other way there could possibly be this much evil concentrated into 300 pages
Any those are all excuses used by the Yes side to get people to vote for the treaty , these are all inaccuracies and they are hiding the real bad aspects of this flawed treaty behind it.0 -
It wouldn't surprise me in the least. This treaty has become the scapegoat for everything undesirable in the fooking world. Don't like Fianna Fail, vote no! Don't like Fine Gael, vote no! Don't like abortion, vote no! Don't like war, vote no! Don't like taxation, vote no! Don't like Spanish fishermen, vote no! Don't like Israel, vote no! (seriously) Don't like the way other countries ratify treaties, vote no! Don't like the imaginary EU elite, vote no! Ever flown Ryanair, vote no! Got athletes foot, vote no! Feeling a bit tired, vote no! Not arsed finding out what's in the treaty, vote no! Afraid of clauses deliberately hidden away in public view and made available for free download, vote no! Etc ad infinitum
The only explanation I can think of is that the chairman of the group that drafted this treaty is the prince of darkness himself. There is no other way there could possibly be this much evil concentrated into 300 pages
that actually made me lol quite a bit, thanks.0 -
leitrim lad wrote: »well here is what is scaring the farmers of ireland about europe, and lisbon,
in ireland we are an island with limited amounts of land for producing food stuffs, such as ,milk,and dairies,beef, and cereal, however the irish farmer is as you are all aware against the import of food stuff, from anywhere, especially beef from brazil, but the view of the irish farmer is that europe is trying in a long drawn out process to kill off the irish farmer , and all they produce, and move the production of food to countries like germany, poland ,france,spain and so on, which all have mass areas of land several times bigger than ireland, which would result in ireland being a derelect , little island off the coast of europe where tourists from america go to see where their great grandparents suffered from poverty,
so the ifa are "supporting" lisbon, all for political reasons but the inside view is that only the top brass of the ifa are supporting lisbon to do themselves political favours, and every farmer i have met over the last 15 months since the last polling day has said no to lisbon, as they are afraid it will put them off the land and leave them living on the side of some town, which would desecrate the culture of farming , and really annoy the farmers whos ancestors fought for 700 years for their land off the british,
and might i add that coming from a farming back ground my self ,i know they are a fairly big stuborn organisation, who want little or no change to their way of life.
so thats the opinion of the rural people on lisbon, and thats why i cant see it going trough
Are all farmers fúcktards?
Without the EU to protect the shower of gobshítes who call themselves farmers external farmers would long since have wiped them out. The inefficient fools who farm in this country would not survive a week without the EU to protect them. Imagine if we could buy Brazilian beef for a lot less than Irish beef. I know which I;d buy.
Because trust me, I;ve been to Brazil, and their beef tastes beautiful. A lot better than the Irish crap you can buy in Tesco.
And they think tehy should vote no?0 -
Will vote no. Keep Ireland soverign please.
This makes no sense. All a 'No' vote will do will push Ireland further into the clutches of "British Isles" ideologues, otherwise known as British eurosceptics.
A 'Yes', in contrast, will bring us more freedom from the British state through pushing us closer to the rest of Europe and modernising our currently deeply anglocentric state, a state within which hundreds of thousands of people read, and are influenced by, British nationalist rags which consistently stoke up hatred of the EU among the least educated of Irish society.0 -
anonymous_joe wrote: »A lot better than the Irish crap you can buy in Tesco.
I see where you went wrong...
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I already voted on this. Why the **** am I voting again, until I deliver the correct result?
I'll be voting no, like the first time.0 -
That post underlines the national-inferiority complex of some on the yes side. They seem to see Ireland as having to align itself with conflicting spheres of influence. As a no voter, I prefer we retain our existing independence, irrespective of who happens to share my views on the desirability or otherwise of the Treaty. In the post-GFA context, I also think it's very old-fashioned to cling on to a sort of Anglophobia that thinks that just because one view is the British view, that we have to always think the opposite. It's ironic that in these referendum campaigns, the side that comes out with this sort of stuff has the audacity to accuse anti-EU treaty campaigners of Europhobia or xenophobia. They seem to forget their own Anglophobia. We fought for our independence - not just to join another empire where we have a tiny percentage of power even compared to the old one. :rolleyes:Rebelheart wrote: »This makes no sense. All a 'No' vote will do will push Ireland further into the clutches of "British Isles" ideologues, otherwise known as British eurosceptics.
A 'Yes', in contrast, will bring us more freedom from the British state through pushing us closer to the rest of Europe and modernising our currently deeply anglocentric state, a state within which hundreds of thousands of people read, and are influenced by, British nationalist rags which consistently stoke up hatred of the EU among the least educated of Irish society.0 -
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And where does over €1 Billion in subsidies a year tie in?
Where does free trade fit in?
Sorry to break it to the farmers, but the EU is their best hope!
Same with the fishermen. The EU has protected over fishing and the quotas should be far less. PS. That head of the new farmers organisation that said Lisbon allows Turkey to join should be banned from speaking publically again!
You have no idea what you are talking about. Show me any evidence that quotas are too high (in fact there are signs of a massive cod recovery at present). Also explain to me why lowering quotas while increasing the percentage of Irish fish that Irish fishermen are allowed catch would not benefit the country. Or are you trying to talk about something of which you have no comprehension?
I think it is hilarious in this country how people 'turn on' primary producers of food. Where do you think your three meals a day come from? The FSM?0
This discussion has been closed.
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