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Lisbon 2 The Return!
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But none of those reasons are trueSix months time. We have voted yes in the Lisbon two? Should we hold a Lisbon three?- The treaty is important
- Only a tiny number of yes voters could give a reason that wasn't a lie and/or fear mongering spread by groups who have been for every treaty since we joined the EU and/or nothing to do with the treaty such as a love of Fianna Fail
- A significant reason given for acceptance last time was lack of knowledge of the treaty but people just did what they were told.
Sam Vimes, I appreciate that you have a rotten set of facts to work with. However it is impossible for you to argue that Lisbon must be rerun for reasons which, with a small tweaking can be used to argue re-running the treaty after a Yes result.
(except for the treaty being important)
Those reasons are your perception of why people voted yes, my reasons came from a national survey and were the actual reasons given. People stated in the survey that they voted no for reasons that were provably false. Besides which, in a representative democracy we vote people in to represent us and there is nothing inherently wrong in voting a certain way because the representative that you voted in to represent you in political matters tells you that it is good to vote that way, although I would argue that there is something inherently wrong with voting no just because your elected representatives say that you should vote yes.
The problem is that the declared wishes of the Irish people were that they didn't want abortion, taxation and an EU army. The EU has listened to those wishes by never having anything of the sort in the treaty in the first place and would now like our opinion on the treaty, now that they know our stance on abortion.We must therefore conclude, that unless the government wishes to run referenda on this issue until the end of time, that Lisbon 2 is nothing more than an attempt to ride roughshod over the declared wishes of the Irish people.
If Lisbon passes and it turns out that it was a disaster, it's highly unlikely that Ireland is the only country that will think so. In that case the people of Europe can call for further changes to be made. Lisbon is not the last word in the EU. But of course that's not going to happen because it's all fear mongering. If Lisbon passes and when the implications become known there will be a collective cry of "What the hell was all the fuss about!!"0 -
Things change and people's opinions change. And don't tell me 'not a comma' has changed in the Treaty. That's right to a degree...but it either deliberately or accidentally misses the point. Ireland's situation has changed. Our guarantees do have a 'legal basis' whether the No side believe it or not and this will be put 100% beyond doubt in 6-12 months (most likely in Iceland's accession Treaty) when they become protocols and hence part of the Treaties if we pass Lisbon.
What people don't quite seem to grasp is that, except for the change with how the commissioners are handled, all of the guarantees are already in the treaty. All they do is spell it out in simple language so that the groups who were spreading lies can no longer do so. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to have worked
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FutureTaoiseach wrote: »I know. I don't think most no voters are anti-EU. We just don't want to lose our remaining independence. But the point I'm making is that in research based on a "tick the box" format, such concerns can have the appearance of being filtered out.
We're not losing out remaining independence, we're voting for a more democratic system where a tiny minority cannot prevent the vast majority from making a necessary change.
As for the poll, I bet you a dollar that had the results come out the way you think they should have you wouldn't be talking about the limitations of surveys
What other method do you suggest they use? Your method seems to be to assume that the majority of no voters had the same reasons as you0 -
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By "the vast majority" of course you mean of the govts represented on the Council of Ministers/European Parliament and other EU institutions. But I am looking at this issue primarily as an Irishman, with Ireland's unique interests at heart. At times, they will conflict with those of Germany, the UK, France etc. When that happens, I want the comfort of knowing our Government (despite being spineless) can block unwelcome measures that contravene our interests.We're not losing out remaining independence, we're voting for a more democratic system where a tiny minority cannot prevent the vast majority from making a necessary change.
As for the poll, I bet you a dollar that had the results come out the way you think they should have you wouldn't be talking about the limitations of surveys
What other method do you suggest they use? Your method seems to be to assume that the majority of no voters had the same reasons as you
The Helen Wallace (London School of Economics) study showed there is no gridlock in the EU arising from Enlargement. In that context, it's hard to justify the erosion/pooling of so much sovereignty involved in the abolition of 60 vetoes in the Lisbon Treaty. This is not about 'streamlining' or a 'tidying up exercise' (of which the EU seems to have another every 5 years). It is about turning the EU into a state incrementally. And that imho is the underlying reason why so many voted no last time. We have finally copped on that that is the name of the game, whatever the platitudes and patronising tones our rulers claim to the contrary.
It's nothing like half. But understand this. The Government which claims we have an optout in the Justice and Home Affairs area has sneaked wording into the referendum legislation allowing them to surrender that optout. The relevant wording is in Paragraph 7 below, referring to the Protocol on the Position of the UK and Ireland:marco polo wrote:How come you are claiming we are losing 60 vetos (in your last post) then if you know the treaty so well. Surely you are aware that many of the areas coming under QMV are new such as the appointment of the president, and almost half are in areas that we have never opted in to in the first place.
I have posted the vetoes surrendered under Lisbon, below. Those in bold are the ones we theoretically have an optout from. But those related to Justice and Home Affairs come under the Protocol that the referendum legislation states the Government/Oireachtas will be allowed to scrap if we vote yes. As such, we will be empowering the Government to abolish the very optouts they claim we have with respect to JHA.The State may exercise the options or discretions: (ii) under Protocol 21 on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice, so annexed, including the option that the said Protocol No.21 shall in whole or in part, cease to apply to the State, but any such exercise shall be subject to approval of both houses of the Oireachtas.
Vetoes removed under Lisbon:
(1) Initiatives of the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and
Security Policy relating to the CFSP at the request of the European Council
(article 15b EU treaty)
(2) Common Security and Defence Policy: statute, seat and operational rules of the
Armaments Agency (article 28D§2 EU treaty)
FEU Treaty
(3) Freedom of establishment, access to activities as self-employed persons,
involving amendment of the principles laid down by law in at least one Member
State (article 47§2 FEU treaty)
(4) Administrative cooperation in the area of freedom, security and justice (article
61G FEU treaty)
(5) Border checks (article 62 FEU treaty)
(6) Asylum (article 63 FEU treaty)
(7) Immigration (article 69a FEU treaty)
(8) Incentive measures in the field of crime prevention (article 69C traité FUE)
(9) Eurojust – structure, operation, field of action and tasks (article 69D FEU treaty)
(10) Non-operational police cooperation (article 69F FEU treaty)
(11) Europol – structure, operation, field of action and tasks (article 69G FEU treaty)
1 References correspond to the numerotation of EU and FEU treaties as amended by the Lisbon
Treaty.
2 CR 19.12.2007
(12) "Derogations" in the field of transport (now absorbed by the common transport
policy) (article 71§2 FEU treaty)
(13) Amendment to certain provisions in the Statute of the European System of
Central Banks (article 107§3 FEU treaty)
(14) Measures in the field of culture (article151 FEU treaty)
(15) Definition of the tasks and objectives of the Structural Funds and the Cohesion
Fund (article 161 FEU treaty)
(16) Council Presidencies – decision of the European Council (article 201b FEU
treaty)
(17) Court of Justice – establishment of specialised courts (article 225a FEU treaty)
(18) Court of Justice – amendment to the provisions of the Statute, with the exception
of the statute of judges and advocates general and the language regime (article
245 FEU treaty)
(19) Appointment of the members of the Executive Board of the ECB – decision of
the European Council (article 245b FEU treaty)
(20) Mechanisms for control of the Commission's exercise of implementing powers
(replacing comitology) (article 249C FEU treaty)
Qualified majority voting accompanied by supplementary mechanisms (Emergency
brake)
(21) Freedom of movement for workers, social security benefits (article 42 FEU
treaty)
(22) Judicial cooperation in criminal matters (article 69A FEU treaty)
(23) Approximation of criminal legislation, offences and sanctions, possibly
enhanced cooperation (article 69B FEU treaty)
List of the new legal bases requiring qualified majority voting
EU Treaty
(24) Election, by the European Council, of the President of the European Council
(article 9B§5 EU treaty)
(25) Appointment by the European Council of the High Representative of the Union
for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (article 9E§1 EU treaty)
(26) Financial provisions in CFSP - procedures for setting up and financing the startup
fund (article 28 EU treaty)
(27) Establishment of permanent structured cooperation in the area of defence (article
28E EU treaty)
3 CR 19.12.2007
(28) Admission of a Member State to the permanent structured cooperation
arrangement in the area of defence (article 28E EU treaty)
(29) Suspension of a Member State from the permanent structured cooperation
arrangement in the area of defence (article 28E EU treaty)
(30) Agreement for the withdrawal of a Member State (article 49A EU treaty)
FUE Treaty
(31) Principles and conditions for the functioning of services of general economic
interest (article 16 FEU treaty)
(32) Measures to secure diplomatic and consular protection (article 20 FEU treaty)
(33) Citizens’ initiative for the tabling of a European law (article 21 FEU treaty FUE)
(34) Arrangements for a mutual evaluation mechanism of the implementation of the
Union policies in the area of freedom, security and justice (article 61C FEU
treaty)
(35) Intellectual property rights and centralised schemes (article 97a FEU treaty )
(36) Member States whose currency is the euro, common position and unified
representation on the international scene (article 115C FEU treaty)
(37) Sport (article 149 FEU treaty)
(38) Space policy (article 172a FEU treaty)
(39) Energy (article 176A FEU treaty)2
(40) Tourism (article 176B FEU treaty)
(41) Civil protection (article 176C FEU treaty)3
(42) Administrative cooperation (article 176D FEU treaty)
(43) Urgent financial assistance to third countries (article 188I FEU treaty)
(44) Humanitarian aid (article 188J FEU treaty)4
(45) Arrangements for the implementation by the Union of the solidarity clause in
case of terrorist attack or natural disaster, where this decision has no defence
implications (article 188R§3 FEU treaty)
2 Note that most of the measures in the area of energy are at present adopted on the basis of provisions
which already require QMV (Art. 95 EC, Art. 175 EC).
3 Note that measures in the area of civil protection are at present adopted on the basis of provisions
which already require QMV (Art. 175 EC).
4 Note that measures in the area of humanitarian aid are at present adopted on the basis of provisions
which already require QMV (Art. 179 EC).
4 CR 19.12.2007
(46) List of Council configurations (article 201b FEU treaty)
(47) Operating rules and appointment of the members of the panel set up in order to
give an opinion on candidates' suitability to perform the duties of Judge and
Advocate-General of the Court of Justice before their appointment (article 224a
FEU treaty)
(48) Administration of the European Union (article 254a FEU treaty)5
(49) Revision of the rules governing the nature and composition of the Committee of
the Regions and the Economic and Social Committee (article 256a FEU treaty)
(50) Implementing measures for the system of own resources (article 269 FEU treaty)0 -
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