Lisbon 2 The Return!

twinytwo

People dont seem to get that the only people who benefit from this in the long run are the countries with the money.. ie germany france etc. If anyone here who is voting yes thinks that they give 2 fecks what happens to little old ireland then they need their head examined...Not only will i be voting no for myself but for all the millions in europe who want a no vote and all the poor brain washed yes voters.

RandomName2

K-9 wrote: »

Well vote and then vote in the next referenda.

Unless you fell for that No lie? You're are to smart to fall for the No further Referenda lie!

What No Lie?

I'm gearing myself up to vote No to Barcelona Treaty (a.k.a Lisbon III)

leitrim lad

twinytwo wrote: »

People dont seem to get that the only people who benefit from this in the long run are the countries with the money.. ie germany france etc. If anyone here who is voting yes thinks that they give 2 fecks what happens to little old ireland then they need their head examined...Not only will i be voting no for myself but for all the millions in europe who want a no vote and all the poor brain washed yes voters.

at long last someone talking sense, why cant the rest of europe talk like this.

if i go into a resturant and order a steak dinner ,and they bring me out a lamb dinner instead, i say no i ordered steak, i dont sit there and be intimidated by a man from offally who hasnt seen his willie in 15 years ,and be force fed the lamb dinner,

and if this carry on continues i walk out and leave the resteruant without custom,

and thats what we should do to this treaty and government

leitrim lad

how many times has france had to vote on this,

yes thats right they didnt have a choice ,i wonder why

FutureTaoiseach

leitrim lad wrote: »

how many times has france had to vote on this,

yes thats right they didnt have a choice ,i wonder why

It's fitting then that the session of the National Assembly that voted on Lisbon was held in the Palais de Versailles, where the seeds of the new absolutism was sown. The Sun King would be proud.

Dinner wrote: »

I think you'll find his version is more like;

"Well the Dutch and French voted no to the Constitution, so some parts that caused a problem have been removed, additional pieces have been added by the Dutch and the remaining content + new parts are reformated into a reform treaty which is now called Lisbon.

Lisbon was then rejected by the Irish mostly because lots of people didn't understand and for reasons that weren't in the treaty. Let's address those points and see if the Irish Government want to rerun the treaty + guarantees".

But hey! I'm only including the bits that you left out because it doesn't seem as undemocratic. I have no doubt the within the next page or 2 you will repost something similar to the post I quoted ignoring the democratic parts and the whole circle starts again.

If the French and Dutch peoples' concerns have been adequately addressed them then let them have referenda to prove it. It won't happen, because as Sarkozy himself said:

Nicolas Sarkozy (reported Daily Telegraph 14th November 2007) wrote:

A referendum now would bring Europe into danger. There will be no Treaty if we had a referendum in France, which would again be followed by a referendum in the UK.

It's utter nonsense to suggest the French and Dutch people voted no for symbolic reasons like the flag an anthem. And utter nonsense in fact. Look at the Dutch polls continuing to show majorities against Lisbon. The reaction of the EU to the no votes will go down in the annals of EU history as the most disgraceful episode of EU history.

Your post also underlines the arrogance of the pro-Lisbon elites towards no vorts e.g. they didn't understand it etc. Shades of Edmund Burke talking about the ordinary people as the 'swinish multitude'. There is an element of class-prejudice in the yes campaign. What next? Property-qualifications for voting? The EU is regressing with Lisbon to a less democratic, more oligarchic time, where unelected bureaucrats made the decisions while weak parliaments e.g. the European Parliament, provided a democratic veneer for an essentially oligarchic political-system. The Bourbon Restoration (1815-30) in France springs to mind as a parallel. The EU's Ancien Regime must be forced to take no for an answer. I will not eat cake.

An Fear Aniar

Dinner wrote: »

I think you'll find his version is more like;

"Well the Dutch and French voted no to the Constitution, so some parts that caused a problem have been removed, additional pieces have been added by the Dutch and the remaining content + new parts are reformated into a reform treaty which is now called Lisbon.

But they're not going to risk another referendum in France or the Netherlands or anywhere else in Europe for that matter. Why? because it's essentially the same document with a few names changed here and there.

Dinner wrote: »

Lisbon was then rejected by the Irish mostly because lots of people didn't understand and for reasons that weren't in the treaty. Let's address those points and see if the Irish Government want to rerun the treaty + guarantees".

That's the trouble with democracy, eh?

Dinner wrote: »

But hey! I'm only including the bits that you left out because it doesn't seem as undemocratic. I have no doubt the within the next page or 2 you will repost something similar to the post I quoted ignoring the democratic parts and the whole circle starts again.

It's really heartwarming that you places much value on the words uttered by people such as Barroso and other politicians, but their actions belie their words. Barroso made a gaffe in saying the word "empire", you can tell he knew that from the way he hesitated after he had said it. He mentions that 27 countries "freely decided to work together" yet when the French and the Dutch and the Irish people "freely decided" to kill off the current project this decision was ignored.

Don't get me wrong, I was very starry eyed about the EU up until recent years but now I realize that things are getting out of hand over there.

The majority of EU nations have had only a short experience of parliamentary democracy, even long term members like Germany, Italy, Spain or Portugal have only been democratic for a number of decades, and the newer Eastern members, even less time than that.

The cracks are starting to show and we would be foolish to cede any further sovereignty to the EU for the time being.

.

zenno

You must always vote Yes, if you don’t do as we say we will try to intimidate you with name calling such as nonconstructive, terrorists and idiots. vote no.

FutureTaoiseach

Which poll will be closer to the real one. This one or the one on the EU politics section?

zenno

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Which poll will be closer to the real one. This one or the one on the EU politics section?

none. I never trusted polls anyway but there are so many undecided at the moment we will just have to wait and see.

PHB

leitrim lad wrote: »

how many times has france had to vote on this,

yes thats right they didnt have a choice ,i wonder why

This is one of the silliest things that come out from people. France voted no to the referendum.
Sarkozy ran on the line that if he got elected, he would pass the Lisbon Treaty through parliament without a referendum.
He got elected.

Just because we have a referendum doesn't mean other people have to.

And to be honest, its absolutely ludicrous that people think we have a right to tell other countries how they should run themselves. I wonder how everyone would react if Sarkozy told the press that Ireland have the wrong model, and in reality, it should be passed by a parliament vote.
There would be national uproar, and rightly bloody so.

Other countries can pass their laws the way they want, and we can pass ours the way we want. If you want to bitch about France not getting a vote, ask yourself how you'd feel if Sarkozy came out and said it was stupid to have a referendum. If you get annoyed, then imagine how he feels when you do the exact same thing.

FutureTaoiseach

PHB wrote: »

This is one of the silliest things that come out from people. France voted no to the referendum.
Sarkozy ran on the line that if he got elected, he would pass the Lisbon Treaty through parliament without a referendum.
He got elected.

Just because we have a referendum doesn't mean other people have to.

And to be honest, its absolutely ludicrous that people think we have a right to tell other countries how they should run themselves. I wonder how everyone would react if Sarkozy told the press that Ireland have the wrong model, and in reality, it should be passed by a parliament vote.
There would be national uproar, and rightly bloody so.

Other countries can pass their laws the way they want, and we can pass ours the way we want. If you want to bitch about France not getting a vote, ask yourself how you'd feel if Sarkozy came out and said it was stupid to have a referendum. If you get annoyed, then imagine how he feels when you do the exact same thing.

Hold your horses there. The Lisbon Treaty didn't even exist (as Lisbon) when Sarkozy was elected. He promised a "mini-treaty" when in fact Lisbon was thousands of words longer than Lisbon, but compressed with a smaller typeface to disguise that fact. He never - never - promised a Treaty that was almost a carbon copy of the provisions of the EU Constitution. Claiming to the contrary does not make it true. He has already conceded it would be lost in a referendum in France:

Nicolas Sarkozy (reported Daily Telegraph 14th November 2007) wrote:

A referendum now would bring Europe into danger. There will be no Treaty if we had a referendum in France, which would again be followed by a referendum in the UK.

An Fear Aniar

PHB wrote: »

This is one of the silliest things that come out from people. France voted no to the referendum.
Sarkozy ran on the line that if he got elected, he would pass the Lisbon Treaty through parliament without a referendum.
He got elected.

National elections issues will always dominate over EU issues unless there is a specific referendum.

British Labour voters were promised a referendum and they never got one. Why? Because Brown and Sarkozy and the Dutch know that if the EU superstate project is put to a referendum in their countries it will be overwhelmingly rejected. The EU is creating a perfect storm for itself by stifling democracy at this crucial time.

edit: and it doesn't help your case calling people who disagree with you "silly".

.

RasTa

zenno wrote: »

free abortions for all ? what are you talking about, even if the yes side wins the lisbon vote women in this country will still not be allowed to have an abortion. get your facts straight.

and it's a damn shame, hopefully a yes vote will get us closer to abortions.

K-9

Ye are all up and away now. Politics.ie would be proud.

zenno

RasTa wrote: »

and it's a damn shame, hopefully a yes vote will get us closer to abortions.

unfortunately neither a yes or no will allow this abortion thing to happen. the catholic church are the cause of that. it's a pitty we can't have an abortion on this lisbon c rap

RasTa

zenno wrote: »

unfortunately neither a yes or no will allow this abortion thing to happen. the catholic church are the cause of that. it's a pitty we can't have an abortion on this lisbon c rap

But we are going to War if the yes vote comes in right? That's another reason for me voting yes, I also remember somethign about the EU taking away babies, which will also remove the scumbag element from raising kids.

Those are the reasons I voted yes last time and will be again!

zenno

RasTa wrote: »

But we are going to War if the yes vote comes in right? That's another reason for me voting yes, I also remember somethign about the EU taking away babies, which will also remove the scumbag element from raising kids.

Those are the reasons I voted yes last time and will be again!

this is the supposed guarantee we got on war.

going to war ? it say's the lisbon treaty does not affect or prejudice ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality.
it will be for ireland, acting in a spirit of solidarity and without prejudice to it's traditional policy of military neutrality to determine the nature of aid or assistance to be provided to a member state which is the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of armed aggression on it's territory. any dicision to move to a common defence will require a unanimous decision of the european council. it would be a matter for the member states, including ireland, to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the treaty of lisbon and with their respective constitutional requirements, wheather or not to adopt a common defence. and it say's that nothing in this section affects or prejudices the position or policy of any other member state on security and defence.
ireland notes also that nothing obliges it to participate in the european defence agency, or in specific projects or programmes initiated under its auspices.any decision to participate in such projects or programmes will be subject to national decision-making and the approval of dail eireann in accordance with irish law. ireland declares that it will participate only in those projects and programmes that contribute to enhancing the capabilities required for participation in un-mandated missions for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security, in accordance with the principles of the united nations charter.

zenno

here we go again from dick roche of all people getting people panicked again. tosser.

Ireland is facing “a milestone moment” when it votes on the Lisbon Treaty on October 2nd, with ratification representing a major step on the road to national economic and financial recovery, according to Minister for European Affairs Dick Roche.
Mr Roche told the Ógra Fianna Fáil convention in Cork that the Irish people will have the choice of joining with the 26 other EU members in ratifying the treaty or of putting Ireland out on a limb at a time of unprecedented economic turmoil.

And Mr Roche said that the evidence of Ireland’s 36 years of membership since joining the then EEC in 1973 pointed clearly towards ratification of the Lisbon Treaty as the correct option for the Irish people.

"a major step on the road to national economic and financial recovery"

what rubbish again. when are these idiots going to cop on. this countrys economic recovery will happen anyway wheather we vote yes or no and thats a fact. this sap dick roche is scarmongering again. we don't need lisbon and never will need it. the hard working people of ireland will bring back economic growth not this undemocratic lisbon junk.

zenno

Fcuk wrote: »

A NO voter at heart but tempted to vote yes to give more power to Europe and away from the shower of wasters that stand for election in this country, nevermind the fukwits in power at this moment and time.

Dear god why can't we have marches to stop all this nama and the like, bollix. Now the 5 year job license immigration rule is being sidelined to help with "rental" properties.

This place is a joke.

these fukwits in power will be gone either way when the elections start i'm sure of that.

zenno

Fcuk wrote: »

Sadly it is not those idiots that need to cop on. It is the idiots with the vote who need to cop on.

i agree

Anonomyte

zenno wrote: »

these fukwits in power will be gone either way when the elections start i'm sure of that.

You sure? Lets look at the facts, judging by the poll on here I doubt it, most of you complain about the shower running the country but are willing to throw your vote away simply because you aint bothered, FF as bad as they are have a following that always seem to push it for them. ANyone who dosent vote dosent really have the right to bitch, if you want them out, VOTE.

Dinner

zenno wrote: »

You must always vote Yes, if you don’t do as we say we will try to intimidate you with name calling such as nonconstructive, terrorists and idiots. vote no.

Lads, if ye are going to accuse the yes camp of insulting people, then it's best to not do it yourselves.

Fcuk wrote: »

Sadly it is not those idiots that need to cop on. It is the idiots with the vote who need to cop on.

zenno wrote: »

i agree

An Fear Aniar

zenno wrote: »

this is the supposed guarantee we got on war.

going to war ? it say's the lisbon treaty does not affect or prejudice ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality.
it will be for ireland, acting in a spirit of solidarity and without prejudice to it's traditional policy of military neutrality to determine the nature of aid or assistance to be provided to a member state which is the object of a terrorist attack or the victim of armed aggression on it's territory. any dicision to move to a common defence will require a unanimous decision of the european council. it would be a matter for the member states, including ireland, to decide, in accordance with the provisions of the treaty of lisbon and with their respective constitutional requirements, wheather or not to adopt a common defence. and it say's that nothing in this section affects or prejudices the position or policy of any other member state on security and defence.
ireland notes also that nothing obliges it to participate in the european defence agency, or in specific projects or programmes initiated under its auspices.any decision to participate in such projects or programmes will be subject to national decision-making and the approval of dail eireann in accordance with irish law. ireland declares that it will participate only in those projects and programmes that contribute to enhancing the capabilities required for participation in un-mandated missions for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security, in accordance with the principles of the united nations charter.

We might as well enlist in the EU Imperial army right now then.

.

zenno

Anonomyte wrote: »

You sure? Lets look at the facts, judging by the poll on here I doubt it, most of you complain about the shower running the country but are willing to throw your vote away simply because you aint bothered, FF as bad as they are have a following that always seem to push it for them. ANyone who dosent vote dosent really have the right to bitch, if you want them out, VOTE.

I can't believe how many irish people like being screwed by this government it's insane. how could a country like ireland let itself be screwed for so long by these people i have no idea. you yes voters are seriously in need of some proper education as if this country's future is left up to you we may as well just sink to the end of the irish sea.

G_R

we are being screwed by this government. Thats fair enough

but Lisbon has absolutely nothing to do with the Irish Government, with Fianna Fail, with the Greens etc.

Do u really think every political party (besides Sinn Fein), along with all major Business groups and all major Trade Unions and the IFA would really support something that is ultimately bad for Ireland.

I understand that people are p!ssed off with the government, but why should everyone have to suffer so that the no side can prove a point that the government is bad. Even if the no's win again, the government is not going to go anywhere so long as they hold the majority in the Dail, and i dont see them losing it anytime soon

zenno

dannym08 wrote: »

we are being screwed by this government. Thats fair enough

but Lisbon has absolutely nothing to do with the Irish Government, with Fianna Fail, with the Greens etc.

Do u really think every political party (besides Sinn Fein), along with all major Business groups and all major Trade Unions and the IFA would really support something that is ultimately bad for Ireland.

I understand that people are p!ssed off with the government, but why should everyone have to suffer so that the no side can prove a point that the government is bad. Even if the no's win again, the government is not going to go anywhere so long as they hold the majority in the Dail, and i dont see them losing it anytime soon

well i am sure FF will be out in the next elections actually i'm positive and i never said that the government has anything to do with lisbon well except bully people.

G_R

zenno wrote: »

well i am sure FF will be out in the next elections actually i'm positive

i totally agree with you. in the next General Election FF will be lucky to exist I'd say.

however voting No to p!ss off the government in the Lisbon treaty wont achieve that

edit:
i just read ur edited post. I didnt say u ddi i was talking about other people who plan to vote no for the sake of annoying the government

zenno

dannym08 wrote: »

i totally agree with you. in the next General Election FF will be lucky to exist I'd say.

however voting No to p!ss off the government in the Lisbon treaty wont achieve that

edit:
i just read ur edited post. I didnt say u ddi i was talking about other people who plan to vote no for the sake of annoying the government

no problem. but it does seem amazing how long it's actually taking for people to wake up and dispose of this government. the government are public servants and funny as it sounds we are the public servants to the government. how did that happen. it's time for people to get enlightened.

G_R

zenno wrote: »

no problem. but it does seem amazing how long it's actually taking for people to wake up and dispose of this government. the government are public servants and funny as it sounds we are the public servants to the government. how did that happen. it's time for people to get enlightened.

this is going off topic but i'd be all for a march on the dail demanding them to resign

TheZohanS

dannym08 wrote: »

i totally agree with you. in the next General Election FF will be lucky to exist I'd say.

however voting No to p!ss off the government in the Lisbon treaty wont achieve that

Yes it would, a general election would be called within weeks.

The question you need to ask however is does the end justify the means.