Lisbon 2 The Return!

Dinner

TheZohan wrote: »

Yes it would, a general election would be called within weeks.

The question you need to ask however is does the end justify the means.

Not a chance. This is the government that has survived a disastrous local election and a motion of no confidence in the Dail.

I think another no confidence motion can be called around the time of the budget so maybe then.

But it won't be because of Lisbon.

G_R

TheZohan wrote: »

Yes it would, a general election would be called within weeks.

The question you need to ask however is does the end justify the means.

the simple answer to that is, no. the end doesnt justify the means.

I honestly don't think the Government would fall if Lisbon II failed to be ratified. The only way i can see of getting rid of them is a mass march on the Dail, demanding resignations and a dissolution of the Dail. Short of that I think your gonna have to wait till the next General.

zenno

i just seen a lisbon vote no sign driving earlier and it looks like it said the minimum wage will be dropped to €1.84 an hour if the treaty is ratified. i wonder how that assumption came to be. maybe i misread it i only glanced at it. it doesn't make sense.

G_R

zenno wrote: »

i just seen a lisbon vote no sign driving earlier and it looks like it said the minimum wage will be dropped to €1.84 an hour if the treaty is ratified. i wonder how that assumption came to be. maybe i misread it i only glanced at it. it doesn't make sense.

its signs like that that put doubt into peoples mind.

there should be a body that you can report false claims to (by both the Yes and No camp) and there should be penalties for leading people to believe BS about the treaty

zenno

dannym08 wrote: »

its signs like that that put doubt into peoples mind.

there should be a body that you can report false claims to (by both the Yes and No camp) and there should be penalties for leading people to believe BS about the treaty

yes. i'm not into that sort of stuff myself. i wouldn't believe it anyway if what i seen was correct

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

zenno wrote: »

i just seen a lisbon vote no sign driving earlier and it looks like it said the minimum wage will be dropped to €1.84 an hour if the treaty is ratified. i wonder how that assumption came to be. maybe i misread it i only glanced at it. it doesn't make sense.

You know, people would be able to work in Ireland for whatever their home countries wage would be... say an electrician earns 20 euro an hour here, and in poland it's 6 euro an hour. He can be employed here for 8.65 an hour... Madness.

K-9

The sign would be COIR, basically Youth Defence, the Irish Monster Raving Looney party, though that's a sleight on Lord Sutch!

Basically go your average pro life rally and you'll see COIR members.

Anybody that says our voting weight is down to .8% can't be trusted to be objective.

K-9

Miriam Warm Men wrote: »

You know, people would be able to work in Ireland for whatever their home countries wage would be... say an electrician earns 20 euro an hour here, and in poland it's 6 euro an hour. He can be employed here for 8.65 an hour... Madness.

AFAIK, only if it is a Polish company. They are working on fixing the Lavel judgment.

zenno

these tactics are crazy as well from the yes side: 'The main tactic of the Yes side will be to try to use a "shock doctrine" effect to scare people into voting for their Treaty. They will claim that if Ireland votes No, it will create Iceland style conditions which will deepen the recession. LOL

K-9

zenno wrote: »

these tactics are crazy as well from the yes side: 'The main tactic of the Yes side will be to try to use a "shock doctrine" effect to scare people into voting for their Treaty. They will claim that if Ireland votes No, it will create Iceland style conditions which will deepen the recession. LOL

That is stupid. We'll still be in the Euro.

The latest PR slogan seems to be "the heart of Europe". No campaigners seem to assume the opposite applies if we vote No. Haven't seen to many stating that. It's a sign of No voters seeking offense when none is intended.

Btw, who said that?

marco_polo

zenno wrote: »

I can't believe how many irish people like being screwed by this government it's insane. how could a country like ireland let itself be screwed for so long by these people i have no idea. you yes voters are seriously in need of some proper education as if this country's future is left up to you we may as well just sink to the end of the irish sea.

Could you clarify your reasoning for making this Ad Hominem attack?

K-9

Miriam Warm Men wrote: »

You know, people would be able to work in Ireland for whatever their home countries wage would be... say an electrician earns 20 euro an hour here, and in poland it's 6 euro an hour. He can be employed here for 8.65 an hour... Madness.

The reverse of that is if an Irish company gets a contract in Poland, they have to pay Irish workers the Irish minimum wage! Handy in the current times!

zenno

K-9 wrote: »

That is stupid. We'll still be in the Euro.

The latest PR slogan seems to be "the heart of Europe". No campaigners seem to assume the opposite applies if we vote No. Haven't seen to many stating that. It's a sign of No voters seeking offense when none is intended.

Btw, who said that?

the socialist workers party lol

TheZohanS

K-9 wrote: »

The reverse of that is if an Irish company gets a contract in Poland, they have to pay Irish workers the Irish minimum wage! Handy in the current times!

Like what happened with Dell?

marco_polo

zenno wrote: »

i just seen a lisbon vote no sign driving earlier and it looks like it said the minimum wage will be dropped to €1.84 an hour if the treaty is ratified. i wonder how that assumption came to be. maybe i misread it i only glanced at it. it doesn't make sense.

I believe it was the rates that Gama, a turkish company, were paying their workers in Ireland in Breech of our minimum wage laws.

Relevance to the EU or Lisbon is zero, but that sort of thing doesn't bother Coir

zenno

marco_polo wrote: »

I believe it was the rates that Gama, a turkish company, were paying their workers in Ireland in Breech of our minimum wage laws.

Relevance to the EU or Lisbon is zero, but that sort of thing doesn't bother Coir

i see

K-9

Fcuk wrote: »

Dear god why can't we have marches to stop all this nama and the like, bollix. Now the 5 year job license immigration rule is being sidelined to help with "rental" properties.

Excellent point. The Govt. blames the EU for everything, remember that. Immigration policy, the elephant in the room, was set by FF, not the EU.

If we'd have availed of the 7 year derogation, free movement of accession countries would only be happening now.

PS. Yes does not equal FF as NO does not equal SF or Coir.

K-9

TheZohan wrote: »

Like what happened with Dell?

Like how we got Dell in the first place.

Nothing to with the EU, just our own uncompetitiveness!

You really think Dell is in anyway related to the EU? I take it you are joking?

K-9

zenno wrote: »

the socialist workers party lol

LOL!

Love the ahem, radical voices on the No side!

TheZohanS

K-9 wrote: »

Like how we got Dell in the first place.

Nothing to with the EU, just our own uncompetitiveness!

You really think Dell is in anyway related to the EU? I take it you are joking?

You've missed my point K-9.

Minimum wage here is a hell of a lot higher than in the accession states, I believe the figure is €1.84.

So what would stop me closing my company here, relocating it to one of these countries and bringing workers over here?

Answer that question.

Stark

zenno wrote: »

i just seen a lisbon vote no sign driving earlier and it looks like it said the minimum wage will be dropped to €1.84 an hour if the treaty is ratified. i wonder how that assumption came to be. maybe i misread it i only glanced at it. it doesn't make sense.

The "No" side is back at it with the lies and scaremongering I see. We'll have pictures of chopped up fetuses and nazis riding dinosaurs on signs next.

Bob_Harris

Stark wrote: »

The "No" side is back at it with the lies and scaremongering I see. We'll have pictures of chopped up fetuses and nazis riding dinosaurs on signs next.

Opposed to the Yes side making ludicrous claims about economic recovery coming faster if we vote yes, or if we vote no we will be isolating ourselves in Europe, possibly kicked out?

marco_polo

TheZohan wrote: »

You've missed my point K-9.

Minimum wage here is a hell of a lot higher than in the accession states, I believe the figure is €1.84.

So what would stop me closing my company here, relocating it to one of these countries and bringing workers over here?

Answer that question.

The Posting of workers directive would stop you.

The European Commission issued Directive 96/71/EC, which was adopted in 1996, which guarantees application of the host country's provisions relating to work periods, minimum paid holidays, minimum rates of pay and the conditions of hiring-out of workers and the supply of workers by temporary employment undertakings.

Edit: And I am aware of the problems surrounding the Laval and Vikinig cases with regard to local bargaining agreements, but the implications of these judgement and ways to improve matters are being worked on, and in any case are not related to Lisbon.

G_R

i wouldn't be so sure sbout us not being kicked out if we say no.

Ireland has less than 1% of the population of europe. the no side (judging by the last time) represents 52% (i think) of us. So thats less than 0.52% of Europe holding back the treaty. Do you really think they are going to say ok fine we'll just throw the 300 page multi million euro document in the shredder and forget it was ever mentioned?

Jim236

dannym08 wrote: »

i wouldn't be so sure sbout us not being kicked out if we say no.

Ireland has less than 1% of the population of europe. the no side (judging by the last time) represents 52% (i think) of us. So thats less than 0.52% of Europe holding back the treaty. Do you really think they are going to say ok fine we'll just throw the 300 page multi million euro document in the shredder and forget it was ever mentioned?

What makes you think every single person in every other country supports the treaty?

An Fear Aniar

dannym08 wrote: »

Do you really think they are going to say ok fine we'll just throw the 300 page multi million euro document in the shredder and forget it was ever mentioned?

That's what they were supposed to do, yeah.

.

zenno

dannym08 wrote: »

i wouldn't be so sure sbout us not being kicked out if we say no.

Ireland has less than 1% of the population of europe. the no side (judging by the last time) represents 52% (i think) of us. So thats less than 0.52% of Europe holding back the treaty. Do you really think they are going to say ok fine we'll just throw the 300 page multi million euro document in the shredder and forget it was ever mentioned?

im sure their multi-million euro spent is in no way as expensive as their bed and pillow that kind of money to them is like 1 cent to you and me.

Bob_Harris

dannym08 wrote: »

i wouldn't be so sure sbout us not being kicked out if we say no.

It's legally impossible for any member to be kicked out.

Elessar

Can someone tell me of an unbiased website where I can read, in plain english, what the lisbon treaty will mean? Non-government and non-NO vote sponsored sites preferably.

Don't think I'll bother voting but I can find some uncluttered information about it I might get off my arse.

marco_polo

Elessar wrote: »

Can someone tell me of an unbiased website where I can read, in plain english, what the lisbon treaty will mean? Non-government and non-NO vote sponsored sites preferably.

Don't think I'll bother voting but I can find some uncluttered information about it I might get off my arse.

Referendum Commission would be the best bet.

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/