Lisbon 2 The Return!

bug

seanl wrote: »

Firstly I will be voting Yes to the Lisbon Treaty. Just as I did the last time.

The EU is a miracle - the best thing to happen Europe in a hell of a long time. It has brought peace, prosperity and the possibility of Europe as a real power in the world and not just a pawn of America.

For Ireland what better vehicle for the preservation of our culture than a union of 27 states where no one state can dominate. For hundreds of years Irish people struggled to break free of the overbearing influence of our bigger neighbour. Now we have found the perfect structure for small nations like ours to thrive and we want to throw it all away.

It is important we vote yes and get out of this recent atmosphere of negativity towards the EU and everything else as well.

Voting yes will change the atmosphere? Will there be more Nitrogen and less Oxygen? Oh-noes.

Now we have found the perfect structure for small nations like ours to thrive and we want to throw it all away.

This is just cosy, warm, rhetoric. It's also misleading.
Are you or are you not saying that we will thrive as a small nation, if we vote yes?
Because... that's just not really..true is it? What's your definition of thrive?

KeyLimePie

damn dirty liberals voting no.

K-9

twinytwo wrote: »

Thus why countries like England and italy whos people wanted a vote but they are not required to have one.. were not allowed vote on one of the most important documents in the history of their country?.. maybe to do with the french people voting no the last time.... If people believe democracy is at the heart of the EU then alot of people are seriously deluded

I'll give you the UK but Italy has their rules on Referenda, which is their own business. I think the UK should have a referendum, not on Lisbon, but on EU Membership, because that's just pussy footing around the issue. Lisbon isn't the issue in the UK, the EU is.

bug wrote: »

Dead right.

So get a copy of the treaty, and other referenced documents and take a few days off work/or on the picket line to reference them all between each other.

"VOTE YES" brought to you by the same lot that brought you "Nice for jobs".

YEP, Full employment. Nice brought that? Massive growth in employment numbers?

Nice did not bring that, neither did it bring the recession. Blame FF for that. They had a perfectly decent economy in 01 and messed it up themselves, with the help of bankers, property developers and an often gullible, greedy public.

twinytwo wrote: »

i love they way that gets thrown around just like if we vote no there will be a "2 tier" europe or we "will be left behind"... Europe is controlled by the money powerhouses. and thats the way it will always be

It's hard to know what another No means. A proper debate needs to be held here and if the other 26 want to go ahead, let them.

Morzadec

twinytwo wrote: »

i love they way that gets thrown around just like if we vote no there will be a "2 tier" europe or we "will be left behind"... Europe is controlled by the money powerhouses. and thats the way it will always be

My comment was not meant to be interpreted that way. I didn't say anything like this. These bolded parts are misquotes in fairness because I didn't spout any such rhetoric. Who knows what will hapen if we vote no again? I certainly don't.

My point was that it seems that a huge amount of people are voting no for the wrong reasons. Not that voting No is fundamentally or inherently wrong.

I would also argue that anyone voting Yes 'because Brian Cowen told me to' is also voting Yes for the wrong reasons.

To clarify, my main gripe is with people who are voting No for ridiculous reasons (reasons that I posted about an hour and a half ago, I'm sure you read them), not with people voting No in general.

bug

K-9 wrote: »

YEP, Full employment. Nice brought that? Massive growth in employment numbers?

Nice did not bring that, neither did it being the recession. Blame FF for that. They had a perfectly decent economy in 01 and messed it up themselves, with the help of bankers, property developers and an often gullible, greedy public.

I was actually agreeing with you.
I made no reference to the current government because, i don't really think they really figure in this debate at all.

Where they get on my proverbial tits is, (and I wait to see how they manage this in the campaign in the next few months- this is also where they do figure), is that these assurances, are not part of the treaty.
They are not amendments to the treaty and are not binding.

Also, I'm afraid that people are so absolutely ****ed and downtrodden right now that they may or may not hopefully,in my view of course, vote in the absence of knowledge of the treaty itself, hoping that a YES vote may dig us all out of this recessionary hole.

That is about as much of a guarantee as the government addressing our concerns about Lisbon 1.

Valmont

NB: WE DO NOT LOSE OUR SOVEREIGNTY IF WE VOTE YES

I for one will be voting yes because I have taken the time to read over the arguments from both sides of the debate and the Yes vote is the only logical, reasonable and rational option. That much is blatantly obvious when you read some the obfuscatory and fear inducing bullcrap the no-team are coming out with.

Ah well, I can only cross my fingers at this stage.

TheZohanS

seanl wrote: »

For Ireland what better vehicle for the preservation of our culture than a union of 27 states where no one state can dominate.

Germany, France and Britain dominate the E.U. , if you think they don't you are misinformed.

If any of these countries rejected the Lisbon treaty it would be seriously overhauled if not entirely changed.

The changes that have taken place since the initial No vote are superficial and it could easily be argued that these changes are detrimental to Ireland as they merely address what the likes of Ganley and his cronies were scaremongering about.

Biggins

Voting yet again "NO".
The European superpowers can go fcuk themselves.

K-9

bug wrote: »

I was actually agreeing with you.
I made no reference to the current government because, i don't really think they really figure in this debate at all.

Just seen the "Nice for jobs" line! Sorry. Just was pointing out the other side of that line!

bug wrote:

Where they get on my proverbial tits is, (and I wait to see how they manage this in the campaign in the next few months- this is also where they do figure), is that these assurances, are not part of the treaty.
They are not amendments to the treaty and are not binding.

I did quote before that they are international agreements. Now, if I accept your point they could just ignore them, where does that leave the EU in the next Referendum? I'll be voting No for one! Do you have any reason to believe that will happen?

bug wrote:

Also, I'm afraid that people are so absolutely ****ed and downtrodden right now that they may or may not hopefully,in my view of course, vote in the absence of knowledge of the treaty itself, hoping that a YES vote may dig us all out of this recessionary hole.

True, then again it seemed they voted the last time without knowledge of the Treaty itself. It really is up to the Govt. to get the info out there, but far more importantly in my view, the public to get involved. If they have doubts, seek the answers out. I don't care what way they choose, just seek the info. It is out there!

The Govt. can only do so much. They commissioned research. Personally I think abortion and EU army/Neutrality concerns are done to death at this stage.

Whoever still has worries over those issues, no assurances can put their mind at ease.

Taxation is a big worry for people.

There is a percentage who the Govt. probably can't address their concerns, well not in the context of Lisbon anyway.

K-9

TheZohan wrote: »

Germany, France and Britain dominate the E.U. , if you think they don't you are misinformed.

But do they? They probably more disagree on issues than agree. Agriculture eg. Britain and Germany would be against France and indeed Ireland.

TheZohan wrote:

The changes that have taken place since the initial No vote are superficial and it could easily be argued that these changes are detrimental to Ireland as they merely address what the likes of Ganley and his cronies were scaremongering about.

So what are the issues that need to be addressed? The Govt. did research but couldn't find specific answers barring the ould reliables.

Ibrahimovic91

Yes.

Its really annoying to see some of the responses on here, if you don't believe in EU, or just against Lisbon for what it entails(for what reason idk unless you're anti-eu but Lisbon gives a nation a streamlined way to exit EU) then fine but because FF happen to be pro-lisbon you are against it?:rolleyes:

and trusting ****ing communists? i like joe higgins but i wouldn't listen to anything he has to say(except his views on a secular ireland)

jumpguy

I think people also forget one of our attractions to foreign investors is that we are an easy access to the EU Common Market, due to our lower taxes and improved infrastructure thanks to who...the EU.

BlitzKrieg

Dave! wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV5wmDhzgY8

I'll be voting TÁ

perfer this version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfBo8x3D3MI

Will be voting yes again.

Havnt met a single convincing argument for voting no yet.

ShooterSF

dannym08 wrote: »

im voting yes for 3 reasons:

1) every political party in the country is supporting it except (sinn fein and tbh i dont really trust their judgement - and the socialist party hardly counts, its one man i think).

2) all the concerns (however ridiculous) that the no camp had have been resolved by way of legal guarantees from all other heads of state in the EU. By Ridiculous concers i mean the ones like conscription to the great european army and forced abortion.

and3) I dont trust that ganley fella

This got through 3 pages without being called up? Seriously? How is this any better than people voting no because the are unsure?
1) What the hell does a political party's opinion on the subject matter? Can you not read up on the issue and make a decision for yourself. Every political party decides on an issue by what is good for their party not what is good for the nation. You should really know atleast that much about politics by now.
2) All the concerns? Sure, if you're going to listen to a pro yes vote media trying to play down a no vote. I voted no and it had nothing to do with conscription, abortion(which I'm for!), change to corporation tax or commission (which Im for reducing and wont happen now if we pass Lisbon).
3) I don't trust that Cowen fella. Fantastic thinking bud.

AckwelFoley

ShooterSF wrote: »

This got through 3 pages without being called up? Seriously? How is this any better than people voting no because the are unsure?
1) What the hell does a political party's opinion on the subject matter? Can you not read up on the issue and make a decision for yourself. Every political party decides on an issue by what is good for their party not what is good for the nation. You should really know atleast that much about politics by now.
2) All the concerns? Sure, if you're going to listen to a pro yes vote media trying to play down a no vote. I voted no and it had nothing to do with conscription, abortion(which I'm for!), change to corporation tax or commission (which Im for reducing and wont happen now if we pass Lisbon).
3) I don't trust that Cowen fella. Fantastic thinking bud.

On point 1.

We elect the political parties and in many cases we do so because we aling ourselves with their political stance. To say we should go out and read the treaty ourselves and make up our own mind is what should be done but in practice wont be done. Most people a, couldnt be arsed, b, havnt "the time" (which is basically a) and most importantly c, couldnt understand the treaty and the language within it. The language is not used in legal bills are not to confuse people but to be as accurate and unambigious as possible, unfortunatly most of us dont have a degree in english hence why we will vote with the party.

i find it amusing all the people here that said they have read the treaty. Most of you are liars.


Im not addressing points 2 and 3... its just jibba jabba.

netwhizkid

I am voting no because I both disagree with the EU and the way it is ran but my main reason is to batter Fianna Fail and hopefully when the Lisbon Treaty is defeated the Government will collapse and a GE called.

ben bedlam

netwhizkid wrote: »

I am voting no because I both disagree with the EU and the way it is ran but my main reason is to batter Fianna Fail and hopefully when the Lisbon Treaty is defeated the Government will collapse and a GE called.

here here.

thelordofcheese

snyper wrote: »

Most people a, couldnt be arsed, b, havnt "the time" (which is basically a) and most importantly c, couldnt understand the treaty and the language within it.

i find i stop taking people seriously when they claim either A or B.

As for C, there are plenty of resources available that condense and translate the lisbon treaty, so C is just A&B with some fancy pants on.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

Morzadec wrote: »

But this election is not about Fianna fail or the government! It's not about a mandate for their policies. It's about europe and Ireland's role in Europe.

You do realise that if you got what you wanted and a general election was held tomorrow and Fianna Fail were turfed out, the new government would still support the Lisbon Treaty? Would this, then, by your logic make you vote yes?

The logic is so flawed it's unbelievable.

I'm going to say it again because I feel it's important.

This referendum is not about Fianna Fail. It is not about the Government. It is a mandate on either Fianna Fail or the government.

It is a referendum on a Treaty.

Everyone should be voting on the merits of this treaty and the effect it will have on our country and on Europe, and nothing else.

wrong

the EU knows by now that the present gov is hated with a passion
this FF and Compost party - abortion of a government have destroyed us.

for us to be at the heart of europe and show europe we are serious
we need to remove this government , the EU must be nervous about these imbeciles who are hated trying to push another vote through.


if FF really had any concern for the country, instead itself
it would call an election , now .this would be the honourable sacrifice , but they wont as they are greedy , fat parasites who are only concerned with themselves.

we nee to put a new team in charge , and allow us to vote on the treaty with a clean slate .

if it means voting no, to hopefully cause the FF lot to go to the country , get some new blood in charge
then so be it. and thats how i will vote , and i know many others will as well.


the government has to go , then we vote on the treaty.

ShooterSF

thelordofcheese wrote: »

i find i stop taking people seriously when they claim either A or B.

As for C, there are plenty of resources available that condense and translate the lisbon treaty, so C is just A&B with some fancy pants on.

I would add that human beings even when trying to remain impartial may subconsciously phrase their wording partially. I offer this so people can keep it in mind when reading the ultra condensed things like the commission we had last time who I'm sure accidentally phrased things like "We will keep some of our vetoes" rather than "We will lose some of our vetoes" or the best choice "We will keep some vetoes and lose others". Just be aware of what you read and be careful. Oh and please don't base your vote on claims by indymedia even if they support a no vote!

K-9

DaDumTish wrote: »

wrong

the EU knows by now that the present gov is hated with a passion
this FF and Compost party - abortion of a government have destroyed us.

for us to be at the heart of europe and show europe we are serious
we need to remove this government , the EU must be nervous about these imbeciles who are hated trying to push another vote through.


if FF really had any concern for the country, instead itself
it would call an election , now .this would be the honourable sacrifice , but they wont as they are greedy , fat parasites who are only concerned with themselves.

we nee to put a new team in charge , and allow us to vote on the treaty with a clean slate .

if it means voting no, to hopefully cause the FF lot to go to the country , get some new blood in charge
then so be it. and thats how i will vote , and i know many others will as well.


the government has to go , then we vote on the treaty.

The alternative Govt. also wants a Yes vote.

ShooterSF

K-9 wrote: »

The alternative Govt. also wants a Yes vote.

What if it's a FG Lab and SF coalition?
Not that it matters because we should be voting on the issue.
(I always find the need to say this but SF in my name does not stand for Sinn Fein)

IvySlayer

I am voting No, like I did last time.

I have many reasons, I am very pro-EU.

I like the current Treaty

tolosenc

DaDumTish wrote: »

wrong

the EU knows by now that the present gov is hated with a passion
this FF and Compost party - abortion of a government have destroyed us.

for us to be at the heart of europe and show europe we are serious
we need to remove this government , the EU must be nervous about these imbeciles who are hated trying to push another vote through.


if FF really had any concern for the country, instead itself
it would call an election , now .this would be the honourable sacrifice , but they wont as they are greedy , fat parasites who are only concerned with themselves.

we nee to put a new team in charge , and allow us to vote on the treaty with a clean slate .

if it means voting no, to hopefully cause the FF lot to go to the country , get some new blood in charge
then so be it. and thats how i will vote , and i know many others will as well.


the government has to go , then we vote on the treaty.

Oh, for the love of God...

K-9

ShooterSF wrote: »

What if it's a FG Lab and SF coalition?
Not that it matters because we should be voting on the issue.
(I always find the need to say this but SF in my name does not stand for Sinn Fein)

I know, had a similar problem myself until I changed my name.

Well unless SF get a hell of a lot of seats they would be the minority party.

humanji

I'll be voting yes because I haven't come across a single reason to vote no based on the contents of the treaty, and only found a few minor reasons to vote yes.

The reality of the thing is that it'll make f*ck all difference to the majority of our lives whether it is passed or not. The world will keep turning.

Morzadec

netwhizkid wrote: »

I am voting no because I both disagree with the EU and the way it is ran but my main reason is to batter Fianna Fail and hopefully when the Lisbon Treaty is defeated the Government will collapse and a GE called.

[quote=DaDumTish]wrong

the EU knows by now that the present gov is hated with a passion
this FF and Compost party - abortion of a government have destroyed us.

for us to be at the heart of europe and show europe we are serious
we need to remove this government , the EU must be nervous about these imbeciles who are hated trying to push another vote through.


if FF really had any concern for the country, instead itself
it would call an election , now .this would be the honourable sacrifice , but they wont as they are greedy , fat parasites who are only concerned with themselves.

we nee to put a new team in charge , and allow us to vote on the treaty with a clean slate .

if it means voting no, to hopefully cause the FF lot to go to the country , get some new blood in charge
then so be it. and thats how i will vote , and i know many others will as well.


the government has to go , then we vote on the treaty.[/quote]

Firstly I want to say that I am not an FF supporter. I have never voted for them and never will because I disagree with their ideology and unlike a hoard of retards in the last GE realised that we needed a change of government.

Just wanted to get this out of the way in case anyone thought I was defending FF.

To all those voting No for the ridiculous reason of trying to stick it to Cowen/FF/the government, do you fully realise that the opposition (apart from the relatively small SF and socialists) are all in support of the treaty as well?!? This treaty has nothing to do with changing our government or as a mandate for our government. FF will stay in power if this treaty is defeated.

If you really hate the government that much, get off your arse and get in the street and start protesting, mobolise a petition for a GE etc...

Don't make your voice/protest heard by voting on an important issue that has nothing to do with what you want to protest against.

I'll say it once more:

Political support for Lisbon is not limited to the Government and FF.

Voting No for this reason just loses all political merit when the above statement is taken into account I'm afraid.

AckwelFoley

thelordofcheese wrote: »

i find i stop taking people seriously when they claim either A or B.

As for C, there are plenty of resources available that condense and translate the lisbon treaty, so C is just A&B with some fancy pants on.

while i agree with you, that is the fact imo, most people couldnt be arsed.

And one thing that really pisses me off is people that vote no solely because they dont "like" fianna fail.

Idiotic thinking.. would you vote no on a debate on abortion or divorce solely because of the government?

K-9

snyper wrote: »

while i agree with you, that is the fact imo, most people couldnt be arsed.

And one thing that really pisses me off is people that vote no solely because they dont "like" fianna fail.

Idiotic thinking

It's similar to voting Yes because they like FF/FF Lite or Labour. The more things change, the more they stay the same!

BlitzKrieg

Min wrote: »

As a pro-European I will be voting no.

I believe in democracy, I feel we the people of Europe should be able to have a US style presidential election for European president instead of the politicians telling us who they want and then instill as president of Europe.

there is no president of Europe, its president of the European council and its a position that already exists and has no executive power, why should we have a Europe wide election for a position with no mandate, how do you even run a campaign? "Vote for me I look prettier in a suit?" he makes no policy, has no voting power (literally, he cant vote in any decision) and has no interaction with anything outside of the EU institutions and maybe a media interview (where it would only be his opinion.).

Essentially its a glorified middle management role who's job is it to go to the European parliament/Council/Commission and announce the decision of the council also he arranges the meetings for the European council (and lays out the biscuits and tea:D). All Lisbon is doing is making it a permanent position for 2 years (i think could be 2 and a half) rather then a rotating position between member states every 6 months.

Considering how much of a f*ck up Sarkozy was when he held the position (managing to p*ss off alot of irish voters) and seeing the trouble the Czech presidency suffered. I think for such a simple position its a rather sensible idea.