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Lisbon 2 The Return!

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    #152
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    im sorry but we have some housekeeping to do

    Ireland first Europe second

    Fianna Fail needs a second fatal black eye

    once they are finally banished from power

    third referendum massive yes landslide


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    #153
    Martin 2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Martin 2


    Yes, because there is nothing in the treaty to make me vote no
    Yes, because its acceptance seems better for the economy given multinationals and business orgs support a Yes, know of none that supports a No.
    Yes, because I don’t want Ireland to be isolated in Europe, if we vote No we will be the only country to reject the Lisbon treaty.
    Yes, because I don’t want Ireland to be perceived as anti-European.


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    #154
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    TheZohan wrote: »
    It does, but that just means we won't have to vote on more silly referenda on certain things.

    The men in Brussels will make up our minds for us, we can trust them they smile a lot.

    We'd     be silly not to vote yes!

    And how exactly?


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    #155
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    TheZohan wrote: »
    It does, but that just means we won't have to vote on more silly referenda on certain things.

    The men in Brussels will make up our minds for us, we can trust them they smile a lot.

    We'd     be silly not to vote yes!

    Self ammending doesn't work how you think it works.


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    #156
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    Self ammending doesn't work how you think it works.

    I was thinking he was going to go for for that porkie alright.


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    #157
    Slash/ED
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Slash/ED


    People shouldn't be allowed vote unless they educate themselves on what they're voting on. There should be an exam on the treaty and if you don't pass you don't get to vote, anyone who wouldn't pass voting for either side is doing more harm than good to the democratic process imo.

    I wouldn't pass, so I wont vote.


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    #158
    Stev_o
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    TheZohan wrote: »
    It does, but that just means we won't have to vote on more silly referenda on certain things.

    The men in Brussels will make up our minds for us, we can trust them they smile a lot.

    We'd     be silly not to vote yes!

    To bad Belgium as a country isn't the best symbol of unionism, cooperation and tolerance.


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    #159
    _
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭_


    Slash/ED wrote: »
    People shouldn't be allowed vote unless they educate themselves on what they're voting on. There should be an exam on the treaty and if you don't pass you don't get to vote, anyone who wouldn't pass voting for either side is doing more harm than good to the democratic process imo.

    I wouldn't pass, so I wont vote.

    Well said, honest and human.


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    #160
    MaGrOtTeN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭MaGrOtTeN


    unreggd wrote: »
    They still didnt explain why a yes vote is better

    So, all the 'Yes' lobbyists on the radio, tv, newspapers, internet ect didn't call to your door for tea and cakes to explain to you personally? You can't find out for yourself? You just based your decision on somebody who told you 'No' was better first?

    Two other things:
    1) F@CK the constitution if it constrains us in any way from being better.

    2) Any hatred towards FF has NO PLACE in this debate.
    A gentle reminder of the 'NO' parties:
    Libertas (corrupt as@holes)
    Sinn Fein (dangerous as@holes)
    Some socialists (paranoid/delusional!)


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    #161
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    Self ammending doesn't work how you think it works.
    marco_polo wrote: »
    I was thinking he was going to go for for that porkie alright.


    The Dutch and the French held a referendum on the European Constitution, they voted NO.

    It was changed and turned into what is now called the Lisbon Treaty, the French and Dutch voters didn't get a change to vote on it; why not? If it's such a good Treaty then why not leave in a form that would require a YES vote from the people?

    We voted NO and they did not accept out vote. There was no public outcry at the result.

    The politicians decided we were wrong and they were right so we're having another referendum.


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    #162
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    TheZohan wrote: »
    The Dutch and the French held a referendum on the European Constitution, they voted NO.

    It was changed and turned into what is now called the Lisbon Treaty, the French and Dutch voters didn't get a change to vote on it; why not? If it's such a good Treaty then why not leave in a form that would require a YES vote from the people?

    We voted NO and they did not accept out vote. There was no public outcry at the result.

    The politicians decided we were wrong and they were right so we're having another referendum.

    That is completely different from:
    TheZohan wrote:
    It does, but that just means we won't have to vote on more silly referenda on certain things.
    The men in Brussels will make up our minds for us, we can trust them they smile a lot.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #163
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    TheZohan wrote: »
    The Dutch and the French held a referendum on the European Constitution, they voted NO.

    It was changed and turned into what is now called the Lisbon Treaty, the French and Dutch voters didn't get a change to vote on it; why not? If it's such a good Treaty then why not leave in a form that would require a YES vote from the people?

    They got concessions and changes made that addressed the bulk of their concerns. Afterwards the French elected a governemnt who clearly stated they would ratify the treaty.
    We voted NO and they did not accept out vote. There was no public outcry at the result.

    As far as I am aware we have still not ratified the treaty, so the result of the vote stood did it not?

    The politicians decided we were wrong and they were right so we're having another referendum.

    Now as far as I am aware there will still be two options on the ballot paper and you will be free to choose either of them? Sounds reasonably democratic to me.

    Also you mentioned something about the constitution that you seem to have glossed over?


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    #164
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    K-9 wrote: »
    That is completely different from:

    No it's not.


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    #165
    Mossy Monk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28,128 ✭✭✭✭Mossy Monk


    dannym08 wrote: »
    want to give a reason why?

    Because I choose to. I don't have to explain my choice to you or anyone else.


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    #166
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    TheZohan wrote: »
    No it's not.

    Why won't we have to vote on any more silly referenda?

    Is there a specific article or protocol that I can lookup?


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    #167
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Why won't we have to vote on any more silly referenda?

    Is there a specific article or protocol that I can lookup?

    Please don't mis-quote me marco_polo.
    TheZohan wrote: »
    It does, but that just means we won't have to vote on more silly referenda on certain things.

    My comment was indeed relating to the Lisbon Treaty being self amending.


    Give me ONE GOOD REASON why I should vote yes...


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    #168
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    TheZohan wrote: »
    The Dutch and the French held a referendum on the European Constitution, they voted NO.

    It was changed and turned into what is now called the Lisbon Treaty, the French and Dutch voters didn't get a change to vote on it; why not? If it's such a good Treaty then why not leave in a form that would require a YES vote from the people?

    It was redrafted and changed, and how it was changed was that instead of it replacing the old treaties, which is what the constitution intended, it was made into this unweildly beast, which ammends previous treaties.

    The notion that the changes were soley to bypass the French and Dutch vote is nonsense. Pure and simple.

    TheZohan wrote: »
    We voted NO and they did not accept out vote.

    were this in the slightest bit true, we wouldn't be having a second vote at all.
    TheZohan wrote: »
    The politicians decided we were wrong and they were right so we're having another referendum.

    Were we still in high infants, maybe.
    however in reality what happened was this

    The reasons why the treaty was rejected were investigated,
    Ireland go to the EU and ask for it in writing that all our fears can't come true
    the EU oblige
    The government are now asking us, given that we have legally binding agreements that mean we can't be drafted into the EU's super army of abortionist or whatever people were afraid of, are we ok with this.

    You can still say 'No' for whatever reason you feel like, but if you're going to pull this kind of "they be stealin' mah democracy" horseshit, expect to get called on it.


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    #169
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Please don't mis-quote me marco_polo.



    My comment was indeed relating to the Lisbon Treaty being self amending.


    Give me ONE GOOD REASON why I should vote yes...

    Which is a long debunked lie.


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    #170
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    TheZohan wrote: »
    It does, but that just means we won't have to vote on more silly referenda on certain things.

    The men in Brussels will make up our minds for us, we can trust them they smile a lot.

    We'd     be silly not to vote yes!

    Grand, can you explain how we, that is Ireland, will not be having anymore silly referenda on certain things?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #171
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Which is a long debunked lie.

    Not even one eh?


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    #172
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Not even one eh?

    Divert attention when caught out much?


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    #173
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    TheZohan wrote: »
    The Dutch and the French held a referendum on the European Constitution, they voted NO.

    It was changed and turned into what is now called the Lisbon Treaty, the French and Dutch voters didn't get a change to vote on it; why not? If it's such a good Treaty then why not leave in a form that would require a YES vote from the people?

    The parts that the French and Dutch objected to were removed and the remainder forms the contents of Lisbon + a few extras.

    It's worth noting that Sarkozy in France made no secret of the fact that he wouldn't have a referendum on Lisbon and to date there has been no public outcry in France.
    TheZohan wrote: »
    We voted NO and they did not accept out vote. There was no public outcry at the result.

    The politicians decided we were wrong and they were right so we're having another referendum.

    They did accept the vote. Lisbon has not been ratified.

    After the last vote studies were carried out to determine the reasons for voting no (and yes). The majority of no voters gave reasons like they didn't understand the contents (42% of no voters) and with 26% were voters who voted no because of neutrality, abortion, conscription and taxation or other similar reasons.

    In the case of people not understanding, this was a huge **** up by the yes camp. They just didn't try hard enough. But people who don't understand need to try to understand. In order for democracy to work most effectivly, the electorate need to understand what they are voting on. But some people just won't put in the effort themselves.

    In the case of the second group of reasons, the government went back to Europe with these statistics and tried to solve peoples concerns, even though the treaty would have no effect on them. The result of these are the legally binding protocols that cover many of the areas that many no votes were concerned with.

    So it's not about the government disrespecting the vote, they haven't as proven by the fact that Lisbon hasn't been ratified and that another referendum is taking place since many concerns have been met.


    In real life people have concerns and reservations about making decisions. But once their concerns have been satisfied they have no problems changing their mind, so whats the issue with a second vote? If the public's mind has not changed another no vote will be returned. If their concerns have been met then they are entitled to change their mind.


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    #174
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Divert attention when caught out much?

    Not even able to give one good reason much?


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    #175
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    EDIT: i'm deleting the post

    i misread what i quoted


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    #176
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Please don't mis-quote me marco_polo.



    My comment was indeed relating to the Lisbon Treaty being self amending.


    Give me ONE GOOD REASON why I should vote yes...

    Whoever told you that it is self amending, meaning Ireland will not have silly referenda on certain things ,told you a fib or else seen something in the Treaty that they wanted to see.

    One good reason to vote Yes? It isn't self amending as some people make out.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #177
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    K-9 wrote: »
    One good reason to vote Yes? It isn't self amending as some people make out.

    It's not a good enough reason to vote yes K-9.

    Voting No will show the government that we mean business and that we want the mess that this government made of the economy sorted out now.

    The above reason alone is a good enough one for me to vote No.


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    #178
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Not even able to give one good reason much?

    I am more interested in preventing the spread of BS than convincing you to vote yes.

    Backup your point first or admit lying.


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    #179
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    TheZohan wrote: »
    It's not a good enough reason to vote yes K-9.

    Voting No will show the government that we mean business and that we want the mess that this government made of the economy sorted out now.

    The above reason alone is a good enough one for me to vote No.

    That is an even worse reason than imagined conscription to vote no.

    How can our constitution be changed without a referendum?


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    #180
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    TheZohan wrote: »
    The above reason alone is a good enough one for me to vote No.

    it really isnt tho. its not the EU's fault that Dail Eireann is filled with a bunch of incompetent jackasses, its people who voted for FF for putting them there in the first place


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    #181
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    An analogy to show the ridiculousness of the argument that being asked to vote again is undemocratic and is enough reason in itself to vote no:
    1. You buy a car based on a salesman's recommendation (you listen to the no campaign, especially the people who said the treaty was incomprehensible and you shouldn't bother trying to understand it)
    2. You bring it home and your friend points out that the car is a dud and the salesman lied to you (the yes campaign points out that the no campaign was mostly lies and gets legal guarantees to prove this, and tries to explain the treaty as best it can)
    3. You get angry at your friend, call him condescending and demeaning and say he should respect your decision and should not ask you to change it no matter what new information comes to light (you don't give a sh!t that you had no idea what you were voting on, you just don't want to admit you were wrong)


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