Car clamping. Legal??

Paulw

trad wrote: »

I think this covers ithttp://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0030/sec0003.html#parti-sec3

That doesn't say anything about signage. I still don't believe there is any legislation that requires planning permission to erect signs. That legislation only relates to usage of land, and planning requirements for change of use.

trad wrote: »

If a car park does not have proper planning for its operation or signage in my opinion it is acting illegally. There are laws for breach of planning and if they can be used to stop this unregulated activity I'm all in favour.

Your recourse then wouldn't be against the clampers, but would be against the owner of the land.

I do agree that clamping should be properly regulated and controlled. But, if people fail to park properly, or ignore the terms of usage for a car park, then I see nothing wrong with clamping.

trad

PaulW, Paragraph 3.2(a) states

(a) where any structure or other land or any tree or other object on land becomes used for the exhibition of advertisements, or

Advrtisement is a sign in that you are advertising the place to be private property. I spoke to DCC planning about another matter and was informed any sign bigger than an A4 page requires planning.

Just to put your mind at rest I have never been clamped nor so I ever intend to leave my car in such a situation that it may be clamped.

Paulw

trad wrote: »

Advertisement is a sign in that you are advertising the place to be private property. I spoke to DCC planning about another matter and was informed any sign bigger than an A4 page requires planning.

I've never before heard of a sign (of information) to be treated as advertisement. You are not advertising anything, but you are giving information.

Has that ever been tested in court?

I'd say that the vast majority of signs in developments, residential and commercial, would therefore be a breach of planning requirements. I can't see the council taking them up on it though.

I've never been clamped either and don't plan on getting clamped. I always do my best to check where I park. But, at the same time, I've no sympathy for people who get clamped when they park where they shouldn't.

johnfás

There is loads of dubious clamping going on up in UCD at the moment - I cycle past it every day. There are signs on the edge of rubble carparks that do not have lined spaces which say that if you do not park in defined spaces you will be clamped. Given that these are essentially just large spaces of rubble many people are parking in peculiar positions and also with some wheels on bordering grass verges, thereafter having their cars immobilised.

I notice two problems:

1) Their sign is barely visible. It would be incredibly easy to drive into the car park, park and walk to one of the university buildings without ever having sight of the signs.

2) The signs require you to park in defined parking spaces, of which in these car parks there are actually none.

I certainly wouldn't be paying any declamping fine if I were parked in one of those car parks... but I won't be because I can't afford a car and cycle instead

Tom Young

Any Irish Case Law??

Our man in Havana

Nope. There is one district court criminal case which is not binding.

I would imagine the 2 leading UK cases would be persuasive.

cormie

Anyone care to summarise them 2 cases for those of us who see a large block of text and scamper? :P

blackcoat

#15 wrote: »

But, what if the car owner was to remove the clamp, leave it on the ground, and drive home? (therefore not stealing the clamp).

But if the clamp gets stolen by someone else before the clamping company come to collect it, is the car owner liable? Wouldn't the company have to prove the car owner stole it? Surely the photo would not be sufficient proof?

Basically, it comes down to this. Could someone (legally) remove the clamp without damaging it, leave it on the ground and drive home? They would not be legally liable for any fine???

ha ha! very interesting questions! you're certainly not going to pay a clamper without a fight

Victor

trad wrote: »

I am very pro law and order ... If a car park does not have proper planning for its operation or signage in my opinion it is acting illegally.

Then it is your obligation to rectify this. Make some complaints to the local council.

johnfás wrote: »

There is loads of dubious clamping going on up in UCD at the moment - I cycle past it every day. There are signs on the edge of rubble carparks that do not have lined spaces which say that if you do not park in defined spaces you will be clamped. Given that these are essentially just large spaces of rubble many people are parking in peculiar positions and also with some wheels on bordering grass verges, thereafter having their cars immobilised.

I notice two problems:

1) Their sign is barely visible. It would be incredibly easy to drive into the car park, park and walk to one of the university buildings without ever having sight of the signs.

2) The signs require you to park in defined parking spaces, of which in these car parks there are actually none.

I certainly wouldn't be paying any declamping fine if I were parked in one of those car parks... but I won't be because I can't afford a car and cycle instead

You have a secondary issue there where the staff and students may be bound by disciplinary rules. If the spaces aren't defined, they shouldn't be parking there.

ballsymchugh

i'm not entirely sure about the rules re private land, but years ago i worked in the same office as a traffic warden, and he said that to put a ticket on a car that was parked illegally, there had to be almost perfect double or single yellow lines, and a sign close by that was plain and straight to the point. otherwise, some fecker of a solicitor could get the parking fine thrown out.
i'm pretty sure any solicitor worth their salt would be able to win a case against a private clamping company. i got clamped in london a few years ago while i was collecting a friend of mine to give him a lift to the airport. the boot of the car was open and we were putting bags into the boot. the flat was about 2 mins away from the car so they timed it well!!

i have to say, that video of the clamper being clamped was just brilliant.

salamander27

Just found this:

Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act, 1994


Wilful obstruction.
9.—Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, wilfully prevents or interrupts the free passage of any person or vehicle in any public place shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £200.

Is "we didn't think you parked in the right place or parked for too long" reasonable excuse as i doubt if they'd have lawful authority? Maybe it is? Does anyone know where "reasonable excuse" has been defined before?

Victor

I don't think "reasonable excuse" has been defined, it is up to "what a reasonable person would think" (taking both sides of the argument). Legal imperative would almost always be a "reasonable excuse". The clamper will argue contract / reasonable expectation as the basis of "reasonable excuse".

Note that piece says "passage" - can a clamped car "pass"?

afatbollix

Right just got clamped, Have a ticket and all!!!! but it was upside down.. ( to be honest)

I thinking of testing the law.. anyone know a consaw rental in dublin 1/2????

Wombatman

It is €2 for a 24 hour parking ticket at Athenry train station.

On Tue morning (7:16am) on the 20th of Oct I bought two tickets. I spent €4 but got two single day tickets in error. You can push buttons in a different sequence if you need to get follow on tickets but I didn't realise this at the time. I put both tickets on the dash and rushed off to get train.

On my return a day later at 9:30pm I find I'm clamped. I ring the NCPS number and explain what happened. They say that the tickets have expired and I have to pay €120 to get clamp off. They say they will send a guy to me. 30 seconds later a NCPS van drives up to me from the back of the car park.

I explain to your man what has happened and can clearly prove it. I said it is clear I have paid for two days parking. He is having none of it and says he can only remove the clamp if he gets €120. He also said that one of the tickets was folded over and that he could not read it. I ask him how much should I have paid for 48 hours parking. He said €4. I said I paid €4 and can prove it. He said the ticked has expired and that I need to pay him €120.

I walk down to the local Garda Station explain the situation. They say they can't get involved. I ring NCPS and explain what has happen in front of the Garda. They say they won't take it off unless I pay. They say I should pay and can appeal it later. I tell them that I need my car for work and transporting the kids etc and if they don't remove the clamp that I'm going to cut it off. Garda still listening to all this. They say go ahead but I will be fined €500. All this chat was recorded by NCPS phone system.

I cut the clamp off the next day with a bolt cutters mainly. Two and a half hours hard labour and a half day off work. The NCPS guy was standing beside me while I was doing it. He took some photos. He left. It came off. I took the clamp with me and drove off.

Questions:

I'm I the only one that thinks paying the fine and then appealing in this situation would be foolish?
Should I keep the clamp?

Gone Fishin

Don't pay the fine. Unless they have damaged your car (they scraped my wheel), you won't get your money back plus they only do appeals by email, you never get to speak to anyone about it. So long as you can return the clamp undamaged, they haven't a leg to stand on. Have someone weld some chain back on to it to replace what you cut off and you will be fine. Return the clamp repaired to them and supply them with copies of your purchased tickets.

I cut one off last week in front of a Garda and the NCPS guy. The Garda told me that they have legally no right to put a clamp on a car without getting permission from you first, if it is in a private residential area. So long as you return the clamp undamaged you are fine. NCPS guys get paid commission, so they don't care how they get a clamp on, once they get it on. There is not a Garda or court in the country that would prosecute you on behalf of them.

RasTa

Wombatman wrote: »

It is €2 for a 24 hour parking ticket at Athenry train station.

On Tue morning (7:16am) on the 20th of Oct I bought two tickets. I spent €4 but got two single day tickets in error. You can push buttons in a different sequence if you need to get follow on tickets but I didn't realise this at the time. I put both tickets on the dash and rushed off to get train.

On my return a day later at 9:30pm I find I'm clamped. I ring the NCPS number and explain what happened. They say that the tickets have expired and I have to pay €120 to get clamp off. They say they will send a guy to me. 30 seconds later a NCPS van drives up to me from the back of the car park.

I explain to your man what has happened and can clearly prove it. I said it is clear I have paid for two days parking. He is having none of it and says he can only remove the clamp if he gets €120. He also said that one of the tickets was folded over and that he could not read it. I ask him how much should I have paid for 48 hours parking. He said €4. I said I paid €4 and can prove it. He said the ticked has expired and that I need to pay him €120.

I walk down to the local Garda Station explain the situation. They say they can't get involved. I ring NCPS and explain what has happen in front of the Garda. They say they won't take it off unless I pay. They say I should pay and can appeal it later. I tell them that I need my car for work and transporting the kids etc and if they don't remove the clamp that I'm going to cut it off. Garda still listening to all this. They say go ahead but I will be fined €500. All this chat was recorded by NCPS phone system.

I cut the clamp off the next day with a bolt cutters mainly. Two and a half hours hard labour and a half day off work. The NCPS guy was standing beside me while I was doing it. He took some photos. He left. It came off. I took the clamp with me and drove off.

Questions:

I'm I the only one that thinks paying the fine and then appealing in this situation would be foolish?
Should I keep the clamp?

Drop the clamp back into their offices.

Wombatman

I left it out but bolt cutters and two hours work = damaged clamp.

Our man in Havana

They may sue you for the damage and/or report the matter to the Gardaí.

I was heading home from work last month in a taxi as i had to get out to another engagement i had that evening. Normally the trip takes 10 minutes . For some reason the traffic was completly hectic on the main road and my 10 minute trip turned into 35 minutes and a wopping taxi bill.

As i got up the road i saw clampers were out clamping 14 cars and their truck was parked about a foot and a half onto the road causing only one car to pass slowing traffic in both lanes.

14 cars were clamped 1 person literally got out of his car into his house to pick up his training gear for football and came back out and was clamped .

This angered me so i took out my phone to show their truck illegally parked .

I phoned the number on the truck to report an obstruction. I got a guy on the phone and i explained to him that there are 2 guys taking pictures on the street and they have parked their truck about a foot and a half onto the street causing delays in both directions during rush hour. I explained to him that this is after causing me alot of money and delays due to me getting a taxi. I asked him if its legal for these "work men" to do work on this street causing delays and he said no. Its completly illegal for anybody to work on that street during those times that cause delays and he will have a people up there within the next 30 minutes.

I then highlighted to him that it was his people that were causing the delays . Suddenly i got a change in his mood and he wanted me off the phone. He said they are justified to park there as there is no suitable place for them to park . I pointed out that there is a Cul De Sac right across the road. His responce was the clamps are too heavy for the drivers to carry them across the road. He then tried to end the call.

I told him i want to be compensated for my huge taxi bill and he said i have to send in a hand written letter of complaint. I told him that i can email it. He said he would not be able to accept an email . I asked for a manager but all the managers were in a meeting. I asked for a manager's name and he was not entitled to give me one.
I asked him for his name and he was not entitled to give me that . I ended up getting a reference number. When i called back the reference number was not correct.

I did approach the drivers and took their picture , i took a picture of the truck and how it was parked.

What i cant see is why they have the right to clamp and they cant park correct.

Our man in Havana

Go to the Evening Hearld with that.

ciaran76

Our management agent has decided to bring in clamping in our estate.

They say it was agreed at an AGM and I was at the AGM and there was a vote held but the people who voted I am not sure if they were legally allowed vote as they may not have paid their Agent service charges for the year.

Anyway people "voted" in favour so the only way you can get your parking permit is to pay your management fees.

This has caused murder in the estate as its a split development between apartments and houses (dont have driveways)

Anyone know if this is legal (enforcing fee's by using clamping) or not or should this be brought up to a solicitor to be looked into further?

DOC09UNAM

Find out what make the clamps are, that the company is using, then spend the 70-80 euro or however much it is, and buy one for yourself. Put it on when you park, take it off before you leave.

Paulw

ciaran76 wrote: »

Our management agent has decided to bring in clamping in our estate.

Actually, your management company have brought in the clamping.

ciaran76 wrote: »

They say it was agreed at an AGM and I was at the AGM and there was a vote held but the people who voted I am not sure if they were legally allowed vote as they may not have paid their Agent service charges for the year.

You should have raised that as an issue at the start of the AGM. You cannot object after the vote didn't go the way you wanted.

ciaran76 wrote: »

Anyway people "voted" in favour so the only way you can get your parking permit is to pay your management fees.

Nothing wrong with that, that I'm aware of. It's normal and becoming more common. You must pay for the services to be entitled to those services.

ciaran76 wrote: »

Anyone know if this is legal (enforcing fee's by using clamping) or not or should this be brought up to a solicitor to be looked into further?

You could raise it with a solicitor. But, I'm not sure on what grounds. Interesting issue though.

Our man in Havana

There are plenty of legal issues around private clamping but the moral majority don't like talking about them.

ciaran76

Paulw wrote: »

You should have raised that as an issue at the start of the AGM. You cannot object after the vote didn't go the way you wanted.

At the start of the meeting I didn't know we would be voting on something like this.
Tried to object but as the required people like directors etc were not there so they finished up the meeting quite quickly after the vote and re-organised it for another date.

Paulw

ciaran76 wrote: »

At the start of the meeting I didn't know we would be voting on something like this.
Tried to object but as the required people like directors etc were not there so they finished up the meeting quite quickly after the vote and re-organised it for another date.

You should write to the directors and state as above. You may have a case for having the vote retaken when the next meeting is called.

Our man in Havana

Might not be that simple. You will need to read up on their rules from their Memorandum and articles of association. It is a complex area of company law.

Jo King

A lot depends on the leases which you all hold. The management company is a party to the lease and cannot alter it unilaterally. If it is provided in the lease that you can park in the complex then the management company cannot introduce a requirement that you have a permit to do so.

Paulw

I would assume that clamping is being introduced not to penalise those who don't pay their fees, but rather to protect parking spaces from those who shouldn't be parking there. In that way, with a majority vote at an AGM, I can see no reason why they can't introduce clamping.

An issue may come if they try to deny you access to your parking space (if you are entitled to a parking space according to your Lease Contract). If you are not contractually entitled to a parking space, then there doesn't seem to be an issue with what they are doing.

Just my view of it though.

Our man in Havana

There may well be issues in how the implement it.

lobber

The estate I am in has brought in clamping with NCPS (nationwide controlled parking systems) now. I rent from the landlord who was only informed that it was happening on Thursday last week. Signs are already up warning of clamping in operation even though it is not meant to take effect until February next year! Each apartment gets i permit and you have to pay for another one. We will have to ring them for a 24hr permit for any visitors also...
I am at a loss as to why they even need to bring in NCPS. the estate is on the edge of the town and never has anyone other than residents parking.

What to do eh???

Paulw

lobber wrote: »

I am at a loss as to why they even need to bring in NCPS. the estate is on the edge of the town and never has anyone other than residents parking.

What to do eh???

Not a thing you can do, since you are only renting. I assume that the estate is a managed estate (with a management company)?? The introduction of clamping was probably agreed at an AGM (which your landlord may not have attended).

Clamping is probably being introduced because some people are being prevented from using their allocated space by others. Maybe not beside you, but maybe in other parts of the estate.

Again, I'm only making assumptions. But, either way, the issue is for you to organise with the landlord (about permits).

lobber

Paulw wrote: »

Not a thing you can do, since you are only renting. I assume that the estate is a managed estate (with a management company)?? The introduction of clamping was probably agreed at an AGM (which your landlord may not have attended).

Clamping is probably being introduced because some people are being prevented from using their allocated space by others. Maybe not beside you, but maybe in other parts of the estate.

Again, I'm only making assumptions. But, either way, the issue is for you to organise with the landlord (about permits).

I wouldn't mind but there isn't even allocated parking. And it only applies to the apartments and not to the roads through the houses so am sure we will see more parking on and blocking of these roads...

fend

Victor wrote: »

It is generally considered fair game if you can remove it without damaging it.
As the fee is usually for clamp removal, it is also generally considered that the fee won't apply if you remove it yourself.

So what exactly is the point of clamping? By putting a clamp on it just restricts from the driver moving the car to a more suitable location? If the driver can take the clamp off without damage and without the aid of someone [i.e: Clamping Company] to assist in taking it off, is there really a point in clamping?

Also, if on a private street, you park and a private company comes and clamps you, and you decide your are able to remove clamp without damage, return it to the private clamping company and toddle on with the rest of your business, are you liable for any fines, court appearances etc? Is it legal to continue on your life without any implications of what you have just done?

By god if you did that to a county clamping company [Not sure if that's the correct name -- The people employed by the country for public roads?] You'd no doubt be in some serious poop.

Victor

fend wrote: »

So what exactly is the point of clamping? By putting a clamp on it just restricts from the driver moving the car to a more suitable location? If the driver can take the clamp off without damage and without the aid of someone [i.e: Clamping Company] to assist in taking it off, is there really a point in clamping?

Deterrence. Its not easy to remove a clamp.

Also, if on a private street, you park and a private company comes and clamps you, and you decide your are able to remove clamp without damage, return it to the private clamping company and toddle on with the rest of your business, are you liable for any fines, court appearances etc? Is it legal to continue on your life without any implications of what you have just done?

I've not heard of a clamper chasing anyone in such a situation. They are likely to follow up if the clamp is damaged or missing.

By god if you did that to a county clamping company [Not sure if that's the correct name -- The people employed by the country for public roads?] You'd no doubt be in some serious poop.

The difference being that the council / its agents can fine you.

Note clampers tend to take photos.

edditude

Do it French style. The French put clampers out of business by pouring 2 or 3 tubes of super glue into the clamps. If your car gets clamped get someone (anyone) to pour a couple of tubes of super glue into the clamp. Call the clampers to come and take it off and tell them that you are in a huge hurry as you need to get to work. They will not be able to remove the clamp. Call the police and tell them that you called this clamping company to take off the clamp as you were in a big hurry to get to work as you had a very important meeting, which you have now missed. The clampers have inconvenienced you by not having the correct key to remove the clamp. In the end the clampers will have to saw it off and destroy the clamp. The police will witness this and so the clampers will be down a clamp and be sure you refuse to pay due to the terrible inconvenience and traumatic stress this situation has caused you ! You might even lose your job due to their incompetence ! Don't give in to these *@$&ards ! Excuse my French !!!

lynchie

edditude wrote: »

Do it French style. The French put clampers out of business by pouring 2 or 3 tubes of super glue into the clamps. If your car gets clamped get someone (anyone) to pour a couple of tubes of super glue into the clamp. Call the clampers to come and take it off and tell them that you are in a huge hurry as you need to get to work. They will not be able to remove the clamp. Call the police and tell them that you called this clamping company to take off the clamp as you were in a big hurry to get to work as you had a very important meeting, which you have now missed. The clampers have inconvenienced you by not having the correct key to remove the clamp. In the end the clampers will have to saw it off and destroy the clamp. The police will witness this and so the clampers will be down a clamp and be sure you refuse to pay due to the terrible inconvenience and traumatic stress this situation has caused you ! You might even lose your job due to their incompetence ! Don't give in to these *@$&ards ! Excuse my French !!!

A: zombie thread
B: you have to pay before they will come to take the clamp off

Our man in Havana

Depends if they are private clampers. Most of them only deal in cash.

quickdraw2

Irish law regarding clamping

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66568037#post66568037

smartblaa

I've just been clamped in a gated(gate always open) estate, just beside our apartments.I had a sign in the window with my apartment number, and they didn't make any attempt to contact me. Does anyone have experience in removing the triangular clamps(with chain). Can these be removed without cutting?

Cheers

Our man in Havana

Not without dismantling your front suspension first.

I would cut off the clamp and let them do their worst. This is not for everyone and this is not legal advice. Your mileage may vary etc etc.

smartblaa

Haddockman wrote: »

Not without dismantling your front suspension first.

I would cut off the clamp and let them do their worst. This is not for everyone and this is not legal advice. Your mileage may vary etc etc.

That's ok Haddockman, I had pretty much made my mind up on cutting through just one of the chain links. Any idea of the best tool? I've heard that bolt-cutters may not be strong enough.

smartblaa

nuf said!

Our man in Havana

Did you open the lock?

smartblaa

Haddockman wrote: »

Did you open the lock?

found a man who knew a man.
no cutting necessary

Our man in Havana

Have the clampers contacted you get?

smartblaa

Haddockman wrote: »

Have the clampers contacted you get?

nope, will drop the un-harmed(but possibly traumatised) clamp to their offices in the morning. I don't really think they can do a thing.

Kevin!

smartblaa wrote: »

nope, will drop the un-harmed(but possibly traumatised) clamp to their offices in the morning. I don't really think they can do a thing.

don't park your car outside the building ;p

Manwell

:pac: Clamping in Ireland should be illegal. It is an unfair way to make money and you never will be refund in the case they make a mistake. If they clamp your car and they are not right you pay. If you cut the chain you pay. If you leave the car clamped you pay. What kind of justice is it? I would like to destroy this mafia. I want to have my money back.

#15 wrote: »

Hi.
I read over a few old threads on other forums about clamping. No one seemed to be sure about the legal situation. I thought I might be able to get some clarification here. Private clamping is crime as to stole, but legalized by the Irish law. We should stop this kind of private companies seriously.

Is it legal to remove a clamp from a car? I'm talking about clamping on private property; apartment blocks, shopping centres etc.

I mean, is it not an offence to interfere with someone else's private property?

I have never been clamped but I would be interested to know the legal position on clamping.

Thanks.

edditude

I made a short documentary on private clamping...

Its here if you want to look at it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr5K__fyMW8

If you like it you should share.

There is some shocking news in there. Traffic wardens on the public streets of Limerick will soon be replaced by clampers... Sucks doesnt it !

Only way to beat this is to pour glue into the locks of the clamps. This is how the French beat the clampers and had them outlawed. Clampers are a bunch of thugs... and now Limerick city council is going to give them a license to blackmail citizens out of money.

Limerick city is going downhill fast and clamping is only going to assist in its own destruction.

These ba$tards in the city hall just want money and the will use clampers to get it. Hope you enjoy the short documentary. Share it if you do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr5K__fyMW8