Stage 18 TDF - (Warning Contains Spoilers)

kmart6 · 23-07-2009 4:35pm

Meh....can other riders not be tired?! Wiggins had cramps in the last 5 it's coming out,Cancellara didn't have a great first leg to his TT! Just cause they're considered the best/better than him doesn't mean they're always going to win/beat AC! Can it not be possible that he rode out of his skin today!?

kennyb3 · 23-07-2009 4:35pm

other TT people? a 3 times olympic TT champion no?

Nietzschean · 23-07-2009 4:39pm

kennyb3 wrote: »

other TT people? a 3 times olympic TT champion no?

Yes, better TT people then, i don't think it necessarily matters too much, lance won 6/7 of the TT's to finish of his tour wins, surely there were TT specialists in those tours too?

i don't know maybe i'm just alone in thinking after a 3 week tour, the last week in the mountains GC contenders(most of whom are more climbers than TTers) might be surviving better than TT people who spend most of their year doing 1 day events?

davyjose · 23-07-2009 4:42pm

@Kmart. Basically I'm saying that since the days of Eddy merckx -- before my time -- I haven't heard of a specialist climber that could do this. I would love to know what phsiological aspect of AC's body allows him to do this?

I've explained what aspect of Indurain's physiology allows him to do this; I've explained what aspect of Armstrong's physiology allows him to do this. They are convincing arguments.

Now, I want to know what aspects of Contador's physiology allow him to excel in a way we've not seen since the days of Merckx?

My defence of Armstrong would be the same as my defense of Wiggins, they changed their physiques to suit the Tour (I have no doubt Wiggins is clean). Contador hasn't. So BOTTOM LINE.... my second Question is: what the FOOK happened Contador to make him the most impressive cyclist of all time?

Liamo08 · 23-07-2009 4:43pm

Nietzschean wrote: »

but so basically nothing has changed since then? Why all the fresh outrage by people? worlds best mountain climber and spanish TT champ beats other TT people by 3 seconds after a week in the alps...its got to be among the least suspect of all his feats no?

Because a lot of people don't watch Paris Nice and the Tour prologue had a tough hill in it (for a prologue) so it wasn't so clear. Nobody is saying that he only started doping in the last few weeks, but that performance today was incredible ,I can't get past the point that he was putting out very similar wattage to Cancellara even though Contador is 61kg and Cancellara is 80kg. And surely Contador in winning the tour in the mountains had to work just as hard as Cancellara did to just get over the mountains.

Hermy · 23-07-2009 4:44pm

Aoibheann wrote: »

...he really did get to ease up a fair bit yesterday. The Schlecks did most of his work for him, especially towards the end!

I have never raced so a stupid question perhaps.
How could Contador ease up yesterday when he still had to match the pace of the Schlecks?

Nietzschean · 23-07-2009 4:45pm

Liamo08 wrote: »

Because a lot of people don't watch Paris Nice and the Tour prologue had a tough hill in it (for a prologue) so it wasn't so clear. Nobody is saying that he only started doping in the last few weeks, but that performance today was incredible ,I can't get past the point that he was putting out very similar wattage to Cancellara even though Contador is 61kg and Cancellara is 80kg.

Is there wattage info available for them from today?

And surely Contador in winning the tour in the mountains had to work just as hard as Cancellara did to just get over the mountains.

He won one day in the mountains, the rest of it he's sat in and been protected(not saying it was easy, but if he did a verbier every day i'd find it much harder to believe). Cancellara would always have been working for his team...

Captain Havoc · 23-07-2009 4:46pm

All this drug talk is like a bad episode of Fair City, infact it's about as interesting as a thread about Fair City. I'm just going to rely on the drug testers to inform of the cheating b*****ds and assume in the mean time everyone else is inocent. I'll stop here.

Aoibheann · 23-07-2009 4:49pm

Just as an aside - Nicolas Roche in 25th overall (think he dropped one place), 6th in the young riders still. Only 2 minutes between him and Rolland if he was gunning for a tap 5 in that classification, has practically 11 minutes on Sorensen, so if he has a good last few days, he could well move up that spot. About 6 mins behind Feillu in 4th spot also.

Solution: breakaway tomorrow!

Interesting to see where he finishes.

Liamo08 · 23-07-2009 4:55pm

Nietzschean wrote: »

Is there wattage info available for them from today?

Got this from cyclingnews forum not sure how accurate it is:

Wiggins: 416 W (5.86 W/kg) - 5.8% decrease in performance
Contador: 404 W (6.63 W/kg) - 2.6 % decrease in performance

Decrease is from stage to Verbier.

davyjose · 23-07-2009 5:04pm

jerseyeire wrote: »

All this drug talk is like a bad episode of Fair City, infact it's about as interesting as a thread about Fair City. I'm just going to rely on the drug testers to inform of the cheating b*****ds and assume in the mean time everyone else is inocent. I'll stop here.

I never once accused AC of taking drugs, or doping. But I have asked at least twice, what physiological gift has allowed him to do what he did today? Because I'll tell you this: many, many lesser men have been accused, and many, many lesser men have bee caught!

Also, I don't watch Fair City, but ... there was an episode on Professional Cycling?

titan18 · 23-07-2009 5:17pm

Kloden,Leipheimer and Evans are similar weights to Contador and they are all good time trialists.Why does it have to about weight?

Diarmuid · 23-07-2009 5:18pm

Nietzschean wrote: »

but so basically nothing has changed since then? Why all the fresh outrage by people? worlds best mountain climber and spanish TT champ beats other TT people by 3 seconds after a week in the alps...its got to be among the least suspect of all his feats no?

Are you more interested in why people are questioning his win now or the fact that they are questioning it at all?

Because if it's the former, well this is the biggest cycling race in the world and if its the latter then you need a physics lesson.

Nietzschean · 23-07-2009 5:21pm

Diarmuid wrote: »

Are you more interested in why people are questioning his win now or the fact that they are questioning it at all?

Because if it's the former, well this is the biggest cycling race in the world and if its the latter then you need a physics lesson.

Please do elaborate on how my physics is lacking. On both counts we seem to disagree, he might have pulled off an impressive feat, but i can't see how its so suspect relative to anything else....

Diarmuid · 23-07-2009 5:23pm

titan18 wrote: »

Kloden,Leipheimer and Evans are similar weights to Contador and they are all good time trialists.

Kloden - tick
Leipheimer - tick
Evans - 1'14 down on Contador and 5kgs heavier

Why does it have to about weight?

physics.

Nietzschean · 23-07-2009 5:28pm

Diarmuid wrote: »

physics.

That directed at me? i've yet to make an inaccurate physics statement that i'm aware of

Diarmuid · 23-07-2009 5:30pm

Nietzschean wrote: »

Please do elaborate on how my physics is lacking. On both counts we seem to disagree, he might have pulled off an impressive feat, but i can't see how its so suspect relative to anything else....

He is between 10 and 30% smaller than most TT specialists but he put out similar power to those guys.

Nietzschean wrote: »

That directed at me? i've yet to make an inaccurate physics statement that i'm aware of

Not directed at you.

Nietzschean · 23-07-2009 5:34pm

Diarmuid wrote: »

He is between 10 and 30% smaller than most TT specialists but he put out similar power to those guys.

And emm, i've said he should have the same power output? I've yet to see peak/average power output from the riders for today, and that versus the original TT which is more important than Wattage/weight figures for today imo. Fatigue at this point would de-rail any kind meaningfull weight vs power output comparison without including data from not fatigued times.

Liam mentioned some figures which showed a lower power output by contator today vs wiggo, but even then those came from a forum so i don't know what he put out.

titan18 · 23-07-2009 5:37pm

Diarmuid wrote: »

Kloden - tick
Leipheimer - tick
Evans - 1'14 down on Contador and 5kgs heavier

physics.

Considering that Kloden has been around riders who've been caught doping and has never been caught, I think he's clean.Just as someone has been associated Ferrari doesn't mean they have been taking drugs either.Evans is 2kg heavier according to the tour site, and has had a bad tour.

Where's the article on that site that says that extra weight makes you better at time trialing.It's very confusing to read and I can't find it.If you mean that it means that it gives you more power, it is not always the case tbh

Nietzschean · 23-07-2009 5:41pm

titan18 wrote: »

Where's the article on that site that says that extra weight makes you better at time trialing.It's very confusing to read and I can't find it.

I haven't read that site so can't point it out, but my understanding goes that the bigger/heavier riders have more muscle(you won't find its fat making up the difference in a pro rider). In the mountains its all about your power to weight ratio, but on the flat weight doesn't matter nearly as much so the more powerfull riders should have an advantage.

Diarmuid · 23-07-2009 5:45pm

Nietzschean wrote: »

And emm, i've said he should have the same power output?

you didn't. A TT is pretty much about absolute power. The guy who can put out the most power will win.

We are clearly not going to agree. No point beating it to death

heinrichaussler · 23-07-2009 6:05pm

Diarmuid wrote: »

He is between 10 and 30% smaller than most TT specialists but he put out similar power to those guys.

Unlike every other climber of the last 106 years. I misread you comment - I guess we're working the same argument here.

Bottom line, if every other TDF winner in the history in the sport has been in doubt, then how come the most doubtful gets off? He's under suspicion - very much so.

titan18 · 23-07-2009 6:52pm

heinrichaussler wrote: »

Unlike every other climber of the last 106 years. I misread you comment - I guess we're working the same argument here.

Bottom line, if every other TDF winner in the history in the sport has been in doubt, then how come the most doubtful gets off? He's under suspicion - very much so.

Ya, but you can't really put him under suspicion for this considering he's been time trialing like this for the last 2 years.There's plenty of other stuff you can put him under suspicion for, the teams he's been on for one.He was 4th in the Olympics ffs.

Orizio · 23-07-2009 9:48pm

There is three new posts up on The Science Of Sport and one new post up on cycling fans anonymous.

petethedrummer · 23-07-2009 11:37pm

When Contador finally has that DNA test to prove the blood bag marked 'A.C.' is not his, then I'll believe him.

http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/2008/02/operacin-puerto-judge-to-allow.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Contador

Nietzschean · 23-07-2009 11:47pm

tbh i wouldn't if i was him, innocent or guilty...there is no upside. If he agreed 90% of people who suspect he dopes still would as that first article even suggests it was just one blood bank of many. So basically he has the risk of there being some of his blood for a legit reason(if thats even possible? ) or a false positive Or of course it implicates him. And the upside? He doesn't seem to have anything to gain?

Oh just wondering is there another article which mentions A.C. was on one of the blood bags? that article doesn't mention it and wikipedia says they were on a note saying "Nothing or like J.J." (well in spanish..)

Hermy · 24-07-2009 12:02am

Velogames is back up and running.

petethedrummer · 24-07-2009 12:13am

Actually you're right it was on accompanying documentation: http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/2008/08/who-is-real-contador.html
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/241730

Anyways, its probably nothing. Sure why wouldn't a big bag of your blood by lying around. He was probably donating it to a hospital. And why would you get a DNA test? Its not like they use it to solve murders.

Funkyzeit · 24-07-2009 1:29am

titan18 wrote: »

Considering that Kloden has been around riders who've been caught doping and has never been caught, I think he's clean.

Really - Kloden ? with the Freiberg report/Rhine Convoy and his performances in 04/06 ?

ROK ON · 24-07-2009 7:39am

Alberto_Contador_Stage_18_Laurent_Rebours_2(6).jpg

The issue of AC's performance has been solved. He is just nt human;).

buck65 · 24-07-2009 7:41am

Time will tell. I would bet any money here and now that within the next 3 years Contador will be linked to a drug scandal

alibabba · 24-07-2009 8:12am

a SUPER-HUMAN EFFORT BY ac INDEED YESTERDAY

petethedrummer · 24-07-2009 8:26am

buck65 wrote: »

Time will tell. I would bet any money here and now that within the next 3 years Contador will be linked to a drug scandal

He is already linked to a scandal.

Lumen · 24-07-2009 8:30am

petethedrummer wrote: »

He is already linked to a scandal.

Down with "linking". That's the sort of "proof" that kicked off Iraq II.

Right now I only care about whether THIS tour performance is natural or assisted.

I call Tim Roth for the prosecution.

petethedrummer · 24-07-2009 8:35am

They should all be put on the Jeremy Kyle show. He'd berate them in to admitting they're dopers.

lukester · 24-07-2009 9:24am

Cycling Fans Anonymous Blog wrote: »

The guys I wanted to do well had some trouble, and the guys I am either indifferent to or actively dislike were flying. That's life as a fan. You get used to it. I have no interest in the Schlecks, as Frank's tendency to blithely send money off to Fuentes is hardly reassuring.

Then there is Kloden, who as far as I can tell should not even have been allowed to ride at the Tour due to info from the Freiburg report implicating him in blood doping. Really, why is he still even employed as a professional rider? Yet there he is, having a big impact on the race and perhaps ending up on the podium. It is a sad spectacle that shows why the sport has many miles further to go before the Tour will be a believable race.

Then there is Contador whose past is an enigma shrouded by the impenetrable shadows of Puerto and Saiz. Some heavy hitters swear to his current cleanliness, yet he hardly seems forthcoming about his past as a protege of Saiz, unlike his teammate Jesus Hernandez.

Next in line we have LA, whose past hardly needs mentioning. Take a read of Le Sale Tour or From Lance to Landis if you need a refresher, which if you read this blog, I bet you don't. These are your top five, a group with plenty of questions and doubts lingering. I don't know for sure whether there is even a single rider in that top five that I can believe in. That's life as a fan. You get used to it.

Sums up pretty much how I feel.

alibabba · 24-07-2009 9:30am

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/23072009/58/tour-de-france-contador-dodges-doping-query.html

mloc123 · 24-07-2009 9:45am

lukester wrote: »

Sums up pretty much how I feel.

lukester · 24-07-2009 9:52am

mloc123 wrote: »

How did you do that? I can hear Carmina Burana playing in the background each time I look at that picture.

Funkyzeit · 24-07-2009 12:04pm

Hermy wrote: »

Velogames is back up and running.

sshhhhh.....say nothing....:o

Hermy · 24-07-2009 12:09pm

Funkyzeit wrote: »

sshhhhh.....say nothing....:o

Okay.

Orizio · 24-07-2009 1:39pm

lukester wrote: »

Sums up pretty much how I feel.

Although I like that blog, he basically damns Andy Schleck because of big brother Frank, which is completely unfair.

Stage 18 TDF - (Warning Contains Spoilers)

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