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Is the new blasphemy law going to mean persection of pagans?
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23-07-2009 11:18am#1Greeting Fey Friends.
I am Darlughda, and just now have had word that old Blasphemy law other folk were getting worked up over has been passed into LAW in our precious ancient land.
Aren't we the lucky ones to live in the 21st Century and not have to hide from religious persecution?
At least we are in the 21st Century right here and now, maybe we can all shed a bit of light on those nasty shadows.
What do you think, time to get outta the broom closet to stand up for yourselves?
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Ireland never had burning times, are you sure you are not getting confused with the penal times?
What exactly to you mean by 'fey freinds' ?
Actaully that is the brand new blashphemy law signed into the body of law just today, the concept is old the law is new.
Personally I am interested to see what happens when the new law is tested and it covers all religions and so covers those who are pagan,heathen,Wiccan. I think it will be very amusing to see it used to it's full extent against some of the awful parody's we see foisted on those who are pagan.
I am not in hiding, are you?
What nasty shadows are you on about?What do you think, time to get outta the broom closet to stand up for yourselves?
What makes you think that anyone who is a regular post here is in the broom closet?
Are you pagan or are you just trying to troll?0 -
No, Ireland never had burning times because we were told witches don't exist.
The Penal Laws came into legislation one step at a time, as as a direct result of the religious and politcal persecutions that raged across Europe.
I understand the word 'Fey' to mean 'like me.' I struggled to find a genuine, humorous way to bring up this discussion without causing offence.
I apologize.
The Law passed today is not unlike Laws made in Europe since the 4th Century onwards.
It might be amusing for you to see what happens when this new law is tested again and again and again, but I don't share the same sense of humour as you.
I am not in hiding, but I am worried about the implications of this Law for people of all spiritualities, religions in the context of the repeat of history I can see.
I would love to hear Witches and Pagans talk openly about these aspects of their history.
The shadows I am talking about are people's fears and terrors. That is all I meant about shining a light on nasty shadows.
I apologize, again, sincerely for my unfortunate utterance regarding the broom closet, my intention was not one of offence, how can I prove that?
No, I'm not trying to troll. Why are you so cross with me?0 -
No, Ireland never had burning times because we were told witches don't exist.
There is no word for witch in any of the gealic dialects.I understand the word 'Fey' to mean 'like me.'fey
/feɪ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fey] Show IPA
Use fey in a Sentence
–adjective
1. British Dialect. doomed; fated to die.
2. Chiefly Scot. appearing to be under a spell; marked by an apprehension of death, calamity, or evil.
3. supernatural; unreal; enchanted: elves, fairies, and other fey creatures.
4. being in unnaturally high spirits, as were formerly thought to precede death.
5. whimsical; strange; otherworldly: a strange child with a mysterious smile and a fey manner.
Must be a horrid thing to think of yourself in such terms you have my condolences.I struggled to find a genuine, humorous way to bring up this discussion without causing offence.
I apologize.
Genuine is good, humorous not so much if you want a serious discussion then please set that tone, we are all grown ups here.The Law passed today is not unlike Laws made in Europe since the 4th Century onwards.
How so?It might be amusing for you to see what happens when this new law is tested again and again and again, but I don't share the same sense of humour as you.
I can honestly not see a case being brought under the new law any time in the near future and it is only suitable for those who set out to offend enmass so that is mostly mainstream media.
Have you actually read the new law?I am not in hiding, but I am worried about the implications of this Law for people of all spiritualities, religions in the context of the repeat of history I can see.
If this state has not had such a law on it's books for the entire existence of the irish republic how is this a repeat of history?I would love to hear Witches and Pagans talk openly about these aspects of their history.
Ireland never had a burning time and I am more intrested in talking about how the interlinks between the catholic church and state impact on my life and that of my children then about unsubstantiated history.The shadows I am talking about are people's fears and terrors. That is all I meant about shining a light on nasty shadows.
And what ones would they be?I apologize, again, sincerely for my unfortunate utterance regarding the broom closet, my intention was not one of offence, how can I prove that?
I don't object to the term of reference of the broom closest, I object to being told to get out of it, esp when I am not in it and I also find objectionable that you think people should be pushed to leave it when it may be in their best interest due to work or how they live their lives to keep it private.No, I'm not trying to troll. Why are you so cross with me?
I am cross.
This is your first post in this forum and it's strewn with misconceptions and loaded statements and telling people what to do.
It is wonderful that you have found the forum and want to take part in discussions but think a little and read a bit of the forum before wading in it is thankfully not like a lot of other pagan forums out there.
The burning times myth has be debunked, so your thread title was a red flag to start with, I am going to change the title of the thread to something more fitting as it is the new law you want to discuss and it's possible impact on those of minority faiths who use this forum, changing the title will mean hopefully that people will no longer be put of by the title and will come into the thread and contribute on it's really topic.0 -
I've been objecting to it on principle rather than any fear that it's actually prosecutable. The DPP has to decide to take the case as it's a criminal charge, not a civil one, so a random person or organisation can't formally seek a blasphemy trial against another (Ie It's not like suing someone)
The DPP is very, very unlikely to ever take a case to trial but that's not really the point.
It does make us a laughing stock though.
Having trouble with the wording of this, could you clarify?If this state has not had such a law on it's books for the entire existence of the irish republic how is this a repeat of history?.0 -
We didn't have a blasphemy law on the books for the entirety of the existence of the state until now, so I fail to see how it's history repeating it's self.0
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Guys
Can you all stop snarling at me now, I find my own sense of humour hilarious, which is just as well as few others do. I'm always getting into scrapes because other people find my sense of humour offensive.
I take on board your objections, thank you for clarifying what you found objectionable about the use of the clichés.
But the truth of it is many Irish Catholics still are frightened of witches and pagans, I would love to see those myths debunked.
I look forward to returning to this forum and providing substantiated arguments and elaborations.
No, I have not read the Law as I don't understand the language it written in. But I have done my best to read all the various threads that discusses it, and I just need to chill now, and get out my dusty history books.
It is horrid to be told you are something you are not, it was over in England, I was told that I was Fey. I thought it was a compliment. You can have your condolences back.
Of course, there are no words for witch in the Irish Language.You are right of course. Silly me.
do chara,
Darlughda0 -
I have not found people afraid of me but it is something they find out eventually and gradually and it is not something I tend to shove in people's faces.
I have not honestly heard of any pagan over the last 10 years who has someone react a hostile fashion on find out about their beliefs. Have you had bad reactions ?
http://blasphemy.ie/2009/07/07/dail-to-vote-on-blasphemy-law-tomorrow/Here is the full wording of the blasphemy sections, and the amendments that are being proposed to them. Please contact your TDs today and ask them to vote for amendments number 22 and 26, which would delete the blasphemy sections from the Bill.
Proposed amendments to the blasphemy sections:
Overall, there are 33 amendments proposed to the Defamation Bill. Five of these relate to the blasphemy section. They are amendments numbers 22 to 26.
Amendment 22 would delete the entire section on the offence of blasphemy. This is proposed by Charles Flanagan of Fine Gael and Aengus O Snodaigh of Sinn Fain.
Amendment 23 would change the fine from €100,000 to €1,000. This is proposed by Pat Rabbitte of the Labour Party.
Amendment 24 would change the fine from €100,000 to €25,000. This is proposed by Dermot Ahern, Minister for Justice, who said at Committee stage that he would do this.
Amendment 25 would exclude from the definition of “religion” an “organisation or cult (a) the principal object of which is the making of profit, or (b) that employs oppressive psychological manipulation (i) of its followers, or (ii) for the purpose of gaining new followers.” This is proposed by Pat Rabbitte of the Labour Party.
Amendment 26 would delete the entire section on the seizure of blasphemous material. This is proposed by Charles Flanagan of Fine Gael and Aengus O Snodaigh of Sinn Fain.
The wording of the blasphemy sections:
Section 36 of the Bill covers publication or utterance of blasphemous matter. Section 37 covers seizure of copies of blasphemous statements. The full text of these sections is:
36. Publication or utterance of blasphemous matter.
(1) A person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €100,000.
(2) For the purposes of this section, a person publishes or utters blasphemous matter if (a) he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion, and (b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage.
(3) It shall be a defence to proceedings for an offence under this section for the defendant to prove that a reasonable person would find genuine literary, artistic, political, scientific, or academic value in the matter to which the offence relates.
37. Seizure of copies of blasphemous statements.
(1) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 36, the court may issue a warrant (a) authorising any member of the Garda Siochana to enter (if necessary by the use of reasonable force) at all reasonable times any premises (including a dwelling) at which he or she has reasonable grounds for believing that copies of the statement to which the offence related are to be found, and to search those premises and seize and remove all copies of the statement found therein, (b) directing the seizure and removal by any member of the Garda Siochana of all copies of the statement to which the offence related that are in the possession of any person, (c) specifying the manner in which copies so seized and removed shall be detained and stored by the Garda Siochana.
(2) A member of the Garda Siochana may (a) enter and search any premises, (b) seize, remove and detain any copy of a statement to which an offence under section 36 relates found therein or in the possession of any person, in accordance with a warrant under subsection (1).
(3) Upon final judgment being given in proceedings for an offence under section 36, anything seized and removed under subsection (2) shall be disposed of in accordance with such directions as the court may give upon an application by a member of the Garda Siochana in that behalf.0 -
I have made all the references to history in the hope it might inspire a bit of debate so we can all try to discuss state religions, freedom to worship, freedom to not care a bit and whatever your having yourself.
Its not about you pagans and witches! No I don't think they'll bring back burning people, but who knows whos going to be next scapegoat? For what, you accuse me of being a criminal and you got enough mates to back you up and can't afford to go to court? Tough.
How long did the poor children of this country face horrific torture and rape and suicides and all those nasty dark scarey things that nobody will talk about. Because they are scared. Scared of what? Who? Why?
I thought, I know I'll go ask the pagans at least they'll be spiritual enough to see through my offensive humour.
My point about the law is not scrutinising its details for the wordy things that make us think we are smarter than each other.
Just look at history. What are the ingredients here? Huge social and economic changes, a culture of fear, nobody wants the terror of the French Revolution, the madness that came out of the reformation and don't even get me started on the 20th Century.
I believe a lot of Irish people are suffering from spiritual crises, you can read the news, we all are beginning to cop on that the authoritarian religions might just be bad for you. If you are guilty of the sin of being poor.
1580-1680 The Reformation begins to really kick off and trials for witchcraft in Europe and America were set in motion by educated, ruling elites. Wealthy people were accused for political and personal motives, but the real victims were the uneducated and the poor.oh my bibliography is in the post.0 -
I can't see a case being taken by the dept of public proceution against a single person tbh.
The law seems to be aimed at publishers ect, it seems to be in the wake of that danish cartoon tbh.
Would tommy tierian and the late late show be charged if the law as it stands now was inplace when the complaints were made against him is intreting but again I don't see who that is a pagan matter.
Personally I respect the religions and faiths of others in the manner I wish mine to be respected.
This forum is about the dicussion of pagan spirituality not about bashing other religions
or finger pointing.
I do think we are due for a change in this society as the newer generations stand up and start taking control as they are no in thier mid 30s and really push to throw of the yokes of the restrictions and opressions which we have had culturally but a lot of that will not happen while people are refusing to take part in the process and are not voting.
Vote and lobbying will bring about change, funny how this law gets sorted but yet we have not had the ratifcation of the un charter on the rights of the child, thats being dodged for the last 30s years as it means the state has to provide secular schooling.0 -
I am fae
And for me it is a compliment..........although i don think it means what you think it does darlughda.
You say you came here to present substantiated arguements????
I am sick of people coming here simply to start fights with pagans or to get pagans to start fights with others..........this is for the pagan community..........
Fair enough freedom of speech in a public forum and freedom of debate..........but i hate it when people see it simply as a place to vent or spew religious argument.
To be honest darlulagh it sounds as if you are not from this country at all.............we have not had the same religious history regarding witchcraft as other countries...............there were no burning times here.........
A lot of pagan spirituality co existed and was immersed in catholicism.
We had a bloody history but it was not the church that was inflicting pain nor the Irish state.............Irish history is very bloody but it is unique from other European countries.
In Irish history there was no concept of a person who was gifted being any different from anyone else.............when you say we were told there were no such things as witches.........prechistian ireland itself had no concept of witches there were gods and goddesses and priestesses and these gods became saints in irish Catholicism.that is why we have so man y nore saints than other countries..........we continued to have female priestesses for a long time and continued to celebrate Samhain Oiche Shamhna..........we gave the world halloween ( it was Irish immigrants who brought it to America)
We have religious freedom ...............no one is stopping me from doing what i want.
We are not nor have we ever been persecuted as a group in this country more than any other part of its indigenous people.
I am a full citizen open about my beliefs and who i am.............i am not part of some secret group or persecuted minority ..........i am a person with my own views.
I am personal friends with a nun(sister of mercy) and a jesuit priest both know i am a witch and both have no problems with it.
I dont believe the catholic church has behaved well towards many other religions..........
But it seems like you wanted to cause a beef here.
The penal laws were introduced by the British largely to persecute us the Irish indigenous people on the basis of religion as all Irish at that time were vastly catholic.
It was on the basis of nationality as much as religion.
Simply a a larger country trying to disenfranchise the native people of a country they wished to subjugate.
Political really as much as religious.
We never had laws against witchcraft here..............and infact native traditions and goddesses ( such as st brigids day) became part of Irish catholicism and a part of national identity.
Our country Eire is names after the goddess Eiru.
By the way you said you thought the Pagans would see through your offensive humour????? If you know it is offensive why do you still keep using it??
The bloody history of our country is really a national one nothing to do with the catholic church but of one nation trying to build an empire.
That was the cause of the the bloodshed.
Rape suicide child molestation .............this had nothing to do with anyone being pagan???????
What are you on about???
The catholic church has been prosecuted by the law for those crimes.........and the individuals who committed them.
Irish history is separate from the rest of europe we were not to worried about the catholic church to be honest it was more Cromwell and the like committing mass genocide and selling us into slavery that bothered us the most.
Catholics have faced terrible religious persecution aswell you know as have protestants and jews.
THEY ALL HAVE.
And to be honest we as modern pagans are very lucky...........and we are all modern pagans..............modern paganism starts in modern times..........the history you speak of belongs to everyone christians jews.......
Stop war mongering.
You have issues with certain institutions obviously from the strong language you have used.
I mean going on about children being raped in order to vent is really being over dramatic..........yes some priests did bad things the organisation behaved badly.....
But to do on like that is simply doing what you claim they do to pagans which is to vilify them.
Stop vilifying people and stop trying manipulate pagans into taking a side or arguing for something.
NEWS FLASH NOT ALL PAGANS THINK ALIKE!!!!!!!!!!! THEY HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS SOME ARE CONSERVATIVE AND SOME ARE LIBERAL.
And if you are not going to even read the law you are taking about yourself then really why did you come on here ..........i hate vague BS.
If you are not talking about specific legal detail then what are you talking about????
You seem to be taking broad vague concepts that may not even be factual from history ( from other countries not even this one!) and applying them here when they are not appropriate.
Stop being so dramatic and ridiculous...........no one has been scapegoated.
Part of being a disorganized religion is that you are disorganized ie we dont up and organize rallies and enter politics etc..........because we are not an institution that is what institutions do we are individuals and not an organisation . That is what ORGANIZED religion do they have the rallies and set up political arguements.
We are individuals as such all of our views are different........that is the beauty of and sometimes the disadvantage of disorganised religion.
If you are expecting pagans to rise up as one and challenge whatever..............sorry that is not what we do at all...............that is just not paganism.
It is not a political movement.
Stop being antagonistic........
PAGANS HATE BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO!!!!!!!!!!! OR WHAT TO BE!
Fight your own ideal.............they are not ours we have our own0 -
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Please do not flame other posters.0
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No the "blasphemy law" won't mean persecution of pagans. It probably provides pagans with protection from persecution.0
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oncevotedff wrote: »No the "blasphemy law" won't mean persecution of pagans. It probably provides pagans with protection from persecution.
Elaborate please.0 -
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Elaborate please.
The blasphemy part says that“A person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter shall be guilty of an offence....”
“Blasphemous matter is something that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion; and he or she intends, by the publication of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage.”
Therefore anybody who deliberately insults pagans/witches/Wiccans because of their beliefs with the intention of causing outrage would be liable for prosecution under the law.0 -
oncevotedff wrote: »The blasphemy part says that
Therefore anybody who deliberately insults pagans/witches/Wiccans because of their beliefs with the intention of causing outrage would be liable for prosecution under the law.
Wiccans you might run into a problem with the whole oath bound section on it.
Can you really see someone testifiying in open court about stuff which is oathbound?
As for pagan/witches. There are so many varations and nothing codified
Well some is but only for particular sects.
I am a pagan. I declare the existance of that law to heritical to my belief in the whole live and let live policy.0 -
Wiccans you might run into a problem with the whole oath bound section on it.
Can you really see someone testifiying in open court about stuff which is oathbound?.
That's up to the individual.As for pagan/witches. There are so many varations and nothing codified
Well some is but only for particular sects..
Everybody is constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion, not just freedom of selected religions. Therefore the law is for the protection of all.0 -
With out a body like that of cannon law it is hard to stay what is sacred to enough people to say that it was profaned and there for falls under the blasphemy act.0
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With out a body like that of cannon law it is hard to stay what is sacred to enough people to say that it was profaned and there for falls under the blasphemy act.
Paganism is a recognised religion in other administrations. In my opinion it would be difficult for an Irish government to buck that trend.
Do Hindism and Buddhism have canon law?0 -
No, but both have writing, scriptures and traditions which are with in those faiths are held as universal and undenibly tenants of those faiths where as paganism is at best an umbrella term with many varibles.
The irish branch of the aquarian tabernacle church has some official status but that is about it.0 -
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Apologies if I repeat anything someone's already said, it drives me mad trying to go through all the quotes.
The basic fact is, as far as I know, Wicca and Paganism in general are legitimite religions. If they offend other faiths, namely Christianity, that is not prosecutable. It offends them insofar as Judaism is offended by Jesus calling himself the Messiah. Ironic much?
Also, and this is assumption, but I doubt any private citizens will suffer for this law. While I am STRONGLY opposed to it, I don't genuinely think we'll all be rounded up and fined for our respective faiths.0
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