Two trout; Brothers or Strangers?

premiercad

Caught two trout last week both only a couple of hundred yards from each other. Both gave a great fight and were around a pound and a half. The first trout had much bigger spots on its flank and was shorter and had more of a belly. The second fish was more speckled with much smaller spots and more of a typical upper Suir trout where I fish. Is this just a slight difference in breeding or was the first fish a foreign invader?:rolleyes:

Top trout in the pic is the puzzler.

stevenmu

A trout's spots and colours can change based on their diet and environment, along with their size/shape. At a guess, the first could have spent more time in deep slow pools feeding lazily, maybe eating worms/minnow/fry etc, whereas the second may have spent more time in faster waters feeding on flys/crustaceans etc.

So they could in fact be brothers who've just specialised on different environments/diets

stevoman

thats two lovely wild trout so it is.

iascanmore

Surely that should be, they were two lovely wild trout...;)

premiercad

I could tell you they were both released from the sink to fight another day but I'd be lying . They did however both get a major thumbs up from the uncle and the ould lad on the plate that evening!

stevoman

premiercad wrote: »

I could tell you they were both released from the sink to fight another day but I'd be lying . They did however both get a major thumbs up from the uncle and the ould lad on the plate that evening!

how come you didnt eat them yourself?

premiercad

Would you believe I d'ont really like eating fish!!! :eek: I only take a trout when I get hounded by the family for some fresh fish.

OutsideLane

2 lovely trout, and yep they do look different.
We have 2 'breeds' (some say species/sub-species) of trout on the Nenagh river too, and they look exactly like these.
Bottom looks like a river trout and the other looks like a lake trout (called Croneen here).

Don't suppose you kept any tissue or scales...? Local (Shannon) Fisheries board (with QUB) is doing a study on trout sub-species in both Lough Derg and the Shannon tributaries; there may be something similar going on in your area.

What was the successful fly/lure/bait...?

Salvelinus

OutsideLane wrote: »

2 lovely trout, and yep they do look different.
We have 2 'breeds' (some say species/sub-species) of trout on the Nenagh river too, and they look exactly like these.
Bottom looks like a river trout and the other looks like a lake trout (called Croneen here).

Don't suppose you kept any tissue or scales...? Local (Shannon) Fisheries board (with QUB) is doing a study on trout sub-species in both Lough Derg and the Shannon tributaries; there may be something similar going on in your area.

What was the successful fly/lure/bait...?

Isn't the croneen like an inland sea-trout? Born in the river, swims downstream and feeds in a alrage lake, then swins upstream to spawn. More or less the same as the dollaghan in lough neagh?

OutsideLane

Salvelinus wrote: »

Isn't the croneen like an inland sea-trout? Born in the river, swims downstream and feeds in a alrage lake, then swins upstream to spawn. More or less the same as the dollaghan in lough neagh?

Yep.

Although some say all trout (incl. sea-trout) are the same. Some guys in Queens are working on the species/sub-species thing, and it seems they are finding genetic evidence to support the sub-species theory. In the Nenagh river the river trout look totally different (as per the pic) to trout that come from the lake.

Salvelinus

OutsideLane wrote: »

Yep.

Although some say all trout (incl. sea-trout) are the same. Some guys in Queens are working on the species/sub-species thing, and it seems they are finding genetic evidence to support the sub-species theory. In the Nenagh river the river trout look totally different (as per the pic) to trout that come from the lake.

The chances are thay are a subspecies but they are capable of breeding with other trout. It depends on how much they "stick to their own" to use a crude expression. Much like Sonaghan and Gilaroo in Melvin.
The area of genetics is very interesting. I read a letter in Fly Fishing & Fly Tying a couple years ago about tests on Ferox. These were long considered to be cannibal Brown Trout but are now considfed to be a sub species which colonised lakes shortly after Arctic Char, which are their main prey species. Anyway this letter said tests were done on Ferox from three lakes (either 2 in scotland and 1 in Ireland or vice versa). The fish from these 3 lakes were more closely related (very loose term) to each other than to brown trout in their respective lakes. The Pollan (a type of whitefish which I thnk was native around Derg at one point) in Lough Neagh are more closely rlated to the Arctic Cisco of Siberia than they are to whitefish like Powan in Britain.

OutsideLane

Salvelinus wrote: »

The chances are thay are a subspecies but they are capable of breeding with other trout. It depends on how much they "stick to their own" to use a crude expression. Much like Sonaghan and Gilaroo in Melvin.
The area of genetics is very interesting. I read a letter in Fly Fishing & Fly Tying a couple years ago about tests on Ferox. These were long considered to be cannibal Brown Trout but are now considfed to be a sub species which colonised lakes shortly after Arctic Char, which are their main prey species. Anyway this letter said tests were done on Ferox from three lakes (either 2 in scotland and 1 in Ireland or vice versa). The fish from these 3 lakes were more closely related (very loose term) to each other than to brown trout in their respective lakes. The Pollan (a type of whitefish which I thnk was native around Derg at one point) in Lough Neagh are more closely rlated to the Arctic Cisco of Siberia than they are to whitefish like Powan in Britain.

There are still a few pollan in Derg from tests done by fishery board fairly recently, but they are rare. Unlike years ago when there was a commercial fishery for them on the lake. Believe they are still quite common in Neagh.
Back to trout sub-species - seems the genetic make-up is only now beginning to get understood. Although there is still confusion re. sea-trout. Seems not every generation goes to sea.
Oh, and before I forget - it looks like there are no more char in Co. Clare - Clare's dodo......

Salvelinus

OutsideLane wrote: »

There are still a few pollan in Derg from tests done by fishery board fairly recently, but they are rare. Unlike years ago when there was a commercial fishery for them on the lake. Believe they are still quite common in Neagh.
Back to trout sub-species - seems the genetic make-up is only now beginning to get understood. Although there is still confusion re. sea-trout. Seems not every generation goes to sea.
Oh, and before I forget - it looks like there are no more char in Co. Clare - Clare's dodo......

I think the way it is now is that a sub species is a breeding population that is somehow seperated from other species/sub species, in Melvin some of the Gilaroo and Sonaghan interbreed with the standard browns but only on a small scale. Very strange how in Melvin they can have 4 different species/sub species in one lake.
Aslo with sea trout, it seems to be mainly the females that go to sea. As (using rough examples) a two pound male can fertilise a six pound female and vise versa but having a larger female produces more off spring so for survival reason it makes more sense for females to go and fatten up. it's a disgrace what happened to them, when I hear of the large runs of big fish in my local river it's unbelievable.
I read about the char in Clare although they are elusive and a large scale study may be necessary. There's a small lake near me in Donegal that contains char and it's fished regularly but very few char are caught.

OutsideLane

Salvelinus wrote: »

I think the way it is now is that a sub species is a breeding population that is somehow seperated from other species/sub species, in Melvin some of the Gilaroo and Sonaghan interbreed with the standard browns but only on a small scale. Very strange how in Melvin they can have 4 different species/sub species in one lake.
Aslo with sea trout, it seems to be mainly the females that go to sea. As (using rough examples) a two pound male can fertilise a six pound female and vise versa but having a larger female produces more off spring so for survival reason it makes more sense for females to go and fatten up. it's a disgrace what happened to them, when I hear of the large runs of big fish in my local river it's unbelievable.
I read about the char in Clare although they are elusive and a large scale study may be necessary. There's a small lake near me in Donegal that contains char and it's fished regularly but very few char are caught.

I know (& still fish the odd time) all (bar 1) the Clare lakes that used to have Char. Last time any were seen was in the 70s, even farther back on Derg. Fishery board did some studies also. Think Fran Igoe may have published a paper on the disappearance of char in Clare. Consensus is that they are no more in this area. Sad really.
I've not seen the char lakes in Donegal but I've seen (& caught) them in Scotland. They were quite partial to worms, small spinners and even flies (mainly tinsel-bodied), judging by what guys were catching on. Locals consider them tastier than trout, and I tend to agree.
Studies on sea-trout suggest that small (as low as 4-6 oz) brownies nip in to fertilize spawning sea-trout hens when tends to back up the other theory that sea-trout are only brownies that go to sea. And also sea-trout in difefrent rivers seem to have different characteristics. I've caught them on the Slaney and you wouldn't confuse with say a Feale or W. Clare fish. Hard to say if it's just population variation.

Anyway, enjoy the fishing wherever.

Salvelinus

If you want a guarantee of catching char, go to lough eske in Donegal in the couple weeks after halloween and bring maggots.

premiercad

Apologies to all on this thread for the late reply but I was away past few weeks. Salvelinus and OutsideLane very interesting posts great stuff. I had heard of croneen in the Derg before but I didnt think there were any in the suir system. I've very rarely came across anything but the standard highly spotted trout we usually catch and it was the shape as much as the spots which caused me to scratch the head with its pot belly and curved back.

I unfortunately didn't keep any scales or tissue but wish I had now!

As for the bait used. Both fell to artifical dry flies, Blue winged olive for the first (Croneen) and sherry spinner the second back on a mild humid summer evening in july remember the one? it was the only one this year!

Salvelinus

Is there a chance that one is a stocked fish or the offspring of stocked fish?