50m2 stand alone building

sinnerboy

From SI 666 / 2006

3. The provisions of these Regulations shall not apply to the following categories of buildings -


(a) a national monument for the purposes of the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004, including a recorded monument under the provisions of Section 12 of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1994 or a registered historic monument under the provisions of the Section 5 of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1987 ; or


(b) a protected structure or proposed protected structure within the meaning of the Planning and Development Acts 2000 to 2006; or


(c) a building used as a place of worship or for the religious activities of any religion; or


(d) a temporary building as defined in Classes 10 to 13 of the Third Schedule to the Building Regulations 1997 ( S.I. No 497 of 1997 ); or


(e) an industrial building not intended for human occupancy over extended periods and where the installed heating capacity does not exceed 10 W/m2; or


(f) a non-residential agricultural building where the installed heating capacity does not exceed 10 W/m2; or


(g) a stand alone building with a total useful floor area of less than 50m2.


My interpretaion of the 50m2 "rule" is that the rule is not meant to apply to an apartment - i.e. even the tiniest apartment <50m2 - requires a cert

So what if

1. Small stand alone building ( cottage ) TFA < 50m2 . Then the attic is converted . TFA is now > 50m2 BUT ....

The conversion is the "nudge nudge wink wink - Monty Python dead parrot not-a-bedroom-but-a storage-room-conversion "

How would fellow SEI assessors proceed

Jimbo

sinnerboy wrote: »

The conversion is the "nudge nudge wink wink - Monty Python dead parrot not-a-bedroom-but-a storage-room-conversion "

Nicely put.


I would definatly proceed as if its part of the usable floor area of the house.

If it's physically being used as a bedroom, it shouldn't matter to an assessor if it was done in a nudge, nudge, wink wink way.

Complying with building regs and planning law is another issue.

sydthebeat

i have been advised by SEI that a BEr is required for 'granny flats' over 50m2....
by extrapolation that means a ber is not required for 'granny flats' under 50m2...

that would seem to exempt apartments too...

anyway, in the case given, definitely declare fa > 50m2 and proceed...

sinnerboy wrote: »

From SI 666 / 2006

3. The provisions of these Regulations shall not apply to the following categories of buildings -


(a) a national monument for the purposes of the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004, including a recorded monument under the provisions of Section 12 of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1994 or a registered historic monument under the provisions of the Section 5 of the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 1987 ; or


(b) a protected structure or proposed protected structure within the meaning of the Planning and Development Acts 2000 to 2006; or


(c) a building used as a place of worship or for the religious activities of any religion; or


(d) a temporary building as defined in Classes 10 to 13 of the Third Schedule to the Building Regulations 1997 ( S.I. No 497 of 1997 ); or


(e) an industrial building not intended for human occupancy over extended periods and where the installed heating capacity does not exceed 10 W/m2; or


(f) a non-residential agricultural building where the installed heating capacity does not exceed 10 W/m2; or


(g) a stand alone building with a total useful floor area of less than 50m2.


My interpretaion of the 50m2 "rule" is that the rule is not meant to apply to an apartment - i.e. even the tiniest apartment <50m2 - requires a cert

So what if

1. Small stand alone building ( cottage ) TFA < 50m2 . Then the attic is converted . TFA is now > 50m2 BUT ....

The conversion is the "nudge nudge wink wink - Monty Python dead parrot not-a-bedroom-but-a storage-room-conversion "

How would fellow SEI assessors proceed

SilverBER

It would still be my view that an apartment, no matter how small, in a block development is not a stand alone building and would thereby process a cert for it. Nothing in this BER system, whether it be DEAP inputs, construction type or legislative wordings should be open to interpretation but there are too many cases where I find myself covering my arse instead of literally applying the rules.
My attitude is to cover my arse every time and let SEI handle the fallout because I will simply be referring any rancourous clients to SEI for them to deal with. I am sick to death of complaining about the SEI so I dont bother any more. I just get on with my life as best I can and leave the **** shovelling to them.

sinnerboy

sydthebeat wrote: »

i have been advised by SEI that a BEr is required for 'granny flats' over 50m2....
by extrapolation that means a ber is not required for 'granny flats' under 50m2...

that would seem to exempt apartments too...

anyway, in the case given, definitely declare fa > 50m2 and proceed...

I have seen granny flat extensions granted permission on the basis that they are "knocked into" the original house when granny dies .

I haven't checked but I am guessing this does not make it

(d) a temporary building as defined in Classes 10 to 13 of the Third Schedule to the Building Regulations 1997 ( S.I. No 497 of 1997 );

recedite

sydthebeat wrote: »

i have been advised by SEI that a BEr is required for 'granny flats' over 50m2....
...

Would these Granny Flats have a separate heating system and their own MPRN number ?
Otherwise the BER referred to might be the one for the whole building.
I'm thinking of an attached garage conversion with own separate front door.

sydthebeat

recedite wrote: »

1. Would these Granny Flats have a separate heating system and their own MPRN number ?
Otherwise the BER referred to might be the one for the whole building.
2. I'm thinking of an attached garage conversion with own separate front door.

1. not necessarily... the particular situation i was referring to had the same mprn but separate heating...

2. if over 50m2 it will require its own BER... treat heating like a CHP...

sydthebeat

sinnerboy wrote: »

I have seen granny flat extensions granted permission on the basis that they are "knocked into" the original house when granny dies .

I haven't checked but I am guessing this does not make it

(d) a temporary building as defined in Classes 10 to 13 of the Third Schedule to the Building Regulations 1997 ( S.I. No 497 of 1997 );

yes, my experience too..
even to such a degree that the council have looked for a plan to show how the 'granny flat' is absorbed into the dwelling once it ceases to exist as a granny flat (nice way of saying when she / he croaks it)...

Mellor

Storage space is still useful space.
Over 50m2, requires BER

sinnerboy

Agreed . Another hypotethical .

2 small stand alone properties - lets say cottages again . TFA < 50m2 , when garage is excluded .

Cottage A is unheated storage space . So area is not counted in for DEAP
TFA < 50m2 = exempt

Cottage B has rad . So area is counted in for DEAP
TFA > 50m2 = not exempt

Agreed ?

recedite

sinnerboy wrote: »

Cottage A is unheated storage space . So area is not counted in for DEAP
TFA < 50m2 = exempt

Cottage B has rad . So area is counted in for DEAP
TFA > 50m2 = not exempt

Agreed ?

Agreed. Also its not the "storage space" that is significant, its the uninhabitable space ie unheated or otherwise that makes it not a dwelling.

Jimbo

sydthebeat wrote: »

i have been advised by SEI that a BEr is required for 'granny flats' over 50m2....
by extrapolation that means a ber is not required for 'granny flats' under 50m2...

recedite wrote: »

Would these Granny Flats have a separate heating system and their own MPRN number ?
Otherwise the BER referred to might be the one for the whole building.
I'm thinking of an attached garage conversion with own separate front door.

sydthebeat wrote: »

1. not necessarily... the particular situation i was referring to had the same mprn but separate heating...

2. if over 50m2 it will require its own BER... treat heating like a CHP...

sinnerboy wrote: »

I have seen granny flat extensions granted permission on the basis that they are "knocked into" the original house when granny dies .

I haven't checked but I am guessing this does not make it

(d) a temporary building as defined in Classes 10 to 13 of the Third Schedule to the Building Regulations 1997 ( S.I. No 497 of 1997 );

Sorry for dragging up an old thread, but does anyone have any further thouhts on this.

I have one at the moment which is a house with garage converted to grannt flat.

The granny flat has its own independant door and is not accessible from the main house.

It shares an MPRN with the main house and is well below 50m2.

It has a seperate heating system (storage heaters).

I know, strictly speaking, the flat has to be stand alone/detached to be exempt but it seems to have always been under the same occupancy and used ancillary to the house (same MPRN confirms this).


My preference would be to treat it as one house as it is being sold as one house and I dont fancy dealing with the fallout when the eletrically heated apartment gets a G rating.



Any thoughts?

DEAPthroat

Whatever way you organise the heating or decide what to do once granny passes on or what you agreed with the Planning Department, a granny flat is in effect a semi-detached house !

If the granny flat is attached on to the main house then it is not a ‘stand alone’ building as it is not standing alone is it ? Apart from anything else it is sharing a party wall.


A detached cottage is a stand alone building but can you really call a small dwelling which is attached to another building/building and which shares a party wall ‘stand alone’ ?

If you removed the other building would the small dwelling….

(a) stay standing ?
(b) loose lots of extra heat ?

MicktheMan

Jimbo wrote: »

Sorry for dragging up an old thread, but does anyone have any further thouhts on this.

I have one at the moment which is a house with garage converted to grannt flat.

The granny flat has its own independant door and is not accessible from the main house.

It shares an MPRN with the main house and is well below 50m2.

It has a seperate heating system (storage heaters).

I know, strictly speaking, the flat has to be stand alone/detached to be exempt but it seems to have always been under the same occupancy and used ancillary to the house (same MPRN confirms this).


My preference would be to treat it as one house as it is being sold as one house and I dont fancy dealing with the fallout when the eletrically heated apartment gets a G rating.



Any thoughts?

I had exactly the same situation a couple months back and was told by SEI that as the granny flat was in essence part of the main house and could be easily be re-instated to be part of the house upon new ownership and as the house/grannyflat was being sold as one unit then one BER would cover house & granntflat.

Mind you I was told this over the phone and did not get this in writing. I was underbid for the job so didn't pursue the matter further.

Jimbo

DEAPthroat wrote: »

Whatever way you organise the heating or decide what to do once granny passes on or what you agreed with the Planning Department, a granny flat is in effect a semi-detached house !

If the granny flat is attached on to the main house then it is not a ‘stand alone’ building as it is not standing alone is it ? Apart from anything else it is sharing a party wall.


A detached cottage is a stand alone building but can you really call a small dwelling which is attached to another building/building and which shares a party wall ‘stand alone’ ?

If you removed the other building would the small dwelling….

(a) stay standing ?
(b) loose lots of extra heat ?

I completly agree that it's not a stand alone dwelling but my argument that it is not a dwelling in itself.
My interpretation would be that the 'stand alone building' line in the exmption list is geared towards apartments.

MicktheMan wrote: »

I had exactly the same situation a couple months back and was told by SEI that as the granny flat was in essence part of the main house and could be easily be re-instated to be part of the house upon new ownership and as the house/grannyflat was being sold as one unit then one BER would cover house & granntflat.

Mind you I was told this over the phone and did not get this in writing. I was underbid for the job so didn't pursue the matter further.

That's just want I wanted to hear.
Pity it's not in writing though! Thanks

recedite

My thoughts;
1.the fact that they are being sold together as one unit seems to swing it in favour of one joint BER, the new owner could well knock the two into one before moving in.
2. If you tried to do them separately, would the second one be rejected on the basis that there is already a property associated with that MPRN number?
3.If the new owner decides to rent out the flat instead, then the flat would strictly speaking need its own BER, but this would mess up the original joint BER? Not your problem though, at least not yet anyway!