DART+ (DART Expansion)

BoatMad

plodder wrote: »

DU should be funded before any major new motorways, particularly in the East, where they're going to cost as much as it anyway,

dont agree, so lets leave it there

Idbatterim

poppycock, its important but not that important and the phoenix parol tunnel can be used to implement some of its features

I would argue that airport rail access is more pressing and also consideration is going to have to be given to either an outer ring motorway or a form of eastern bypass

Id way prefer the eastern bypass. How long would would the outer ring motorway have to be? the numbers using it would be a fraction of what would use an eastern bypass. Many people could cut a serious distance off the commute if they could use the Eastern bypass rather than current m50 route...

It would also take traffic out of the current port tunnel, which sends traffic around a very long way if going south... It should be 3 lanes in each direction IMO...

BoatMad

Idbatterim wrote: »

Id way prefer the eastern bypass. How long would would the outer ring motorway have to be? the numbers using it would be a fraction of what would use an eastern bypass. Many people could cut a serious distance off the commute if they could use the Eastern bypass rather than current m50 route...

It would also take traffic out of the current port tunnel, which sends traffic around a very long way if going south... It should be 3 lanes in each direction IMO...

absolutly , it would be a huge improvement on M50 volumes, its arguably the thing that dublin commuters needs

Sam Russell

I would assume it would be tolled.

Reuben1210

Idbatterim wrote: »

Id way prefer the eastern bypass. How long would would the outer ring motorway have to be? the numbers using it would be a fraction of what would use an eastern bypass. Many people could cut a serious distance off the commute if they could use the Eastern bypass rather than current m50 route...

It would also take traffic out of the current port tunnel, which sends traffic around a very long way if going south... It should be 3 lanes in each direction IMO...

It's definitely needed ASAP, and would be great.

I could be wrong, but i think the port tunnell was part of the original plan for it though?

Reuben1210

Some of EIB activity recently in the country...

http://www.eib.org/infocentre/press/releases/all/2016/2016-019-eib-green-light-for-n25-new-ross-bypass.htm

Sam Russell

Mod: can we stick to Dart Underground. The Eastern Bypass belongs on the M50 thread, or its own thread for a more detailed discussion so open a new one if that is what you want.

brandodub

Reuben1210 wrote: »

It's definitely needed ASAP, and would be great.

I could be wrong, but i think the port tunnell was part of the original plan for it though?

Never be built and would ruin the bay area too. Accommodation of cars is really not on DCC's agenda anymore

D.L.R.

BoatMad wrote: »

I agree DU is important , I disagree to the extent of its importance

lets say no more on this particular topic, what I mainly addressing was the Government has its hands tied at present and will do into the future on capital spending unless the economy grows a lot more.

Of the several large capital projects planned, DU is the single most important by any measure.

Except of course the measure of "parochial parish pump-ometer"

D.L.R.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Id way prefer the eastern bypass. How long would would the outer ring motorway have to be? the numbers using it would be a fraction of what would use an eastern bypass. Many people could cut a serious distance off the commute if they could use the Eastern bypass rather than current m50 route...

It would also take traffic out of the current port tunnel, which sends traffic around a very long way if going south... It should be 3 lanes in each direction IMO...

DU at 12tph has a far higher capacity than the eastern bypass which is just a 2-lane motorway.

I do think they should build the section over the Liffey though, and get rid of the east link bottleneck and that money-grubbing toll.

Reuben1210

brandodub wrote: »

Never be built and would ruin the bay area too. Accommodation of cars is really not on DCC's agenda anymore

It was supposed to be tunnelled for the main bay area.

Really? And accommodation of sustainable and big ticket PT is now suddenly?

They havn't progressed that far yet.

FreudianSlippers

Reuben1210 wrote: »

It Can. The EIB would fund it...those rules are not as stringent on strategic capital investment that will certainly help economic growth, given Dublin, an ever-expanding and congested city is the engine of Ireland's economic growth.

As I said, these years are a golden opportunity to cheaply fund such projects.

They definitely would fund it and it would be fantastic for our economy and jobs.

plodder wrote: »

DU should be funded before any major new motorways, particularly in the East, where they're going to cost as much as it anyway,

Idbatterim wrote: »

Id way prefer the eastern bypass. How long would would the outer ring motorway have to be? the numbers using it would be a fraction of what would use an eastern bypass. Many people could cut a serious distance off the commute if they could use the Eastern bypass rather than current m50 route...

It would also take traffic out of the current port tunnel, which sends traffic around a very long way if going south... It should be 3 lanes in each direction IMO...

I know mod warning and all, but in fairness in discussing DU vis-a-vis EIS, there is little to no reason why a proposal that combines an Eastern Bypass, an outer ring road and DU couldn't be put to the EIS by way of PPP and we could get funding for 2 or 3 if the plan was coherent.

EIS funding is much easier to get if you can show a coherent plan that deals with multiple issues; DU isn't going to magically solve all Dublin's commuter problems, nor will M50(outer), nor will Eastern Bypass...
However, DU+ one or both of these would solve a lot of problems and (which is key) future-proof the city somewhat. EIS aren't so much looking for the now fix, but a coherent plan.

BoatMad

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

They definitely would fund it and it would be fantastic for our economy and jobs.





I know mod warning and all, but in fairness in discussing DU vis-a-vis EIS, there is little to no reason why a proposal that combines an Eastern Bypass, an outer ring road and DU couldn't be put to the EIS by way of PPP and we could get funding for 2 or 3 if the plan was coherent.

EIS funding is much easier to get if you can show a coherent plan that deals with multiple issues; DU isn't going to magically solve all Dublin's commuter problems, nor will M50(outer), nor will Eastern Bypass...
However, DU+ one or both of these would solve a lot of problems and (which is key) future-proof the city somewhat. EIS aren't so much looking for the now fix, but a coherent plan.

That's a very sensible idea , so it's not going to be listened to of course

Grandeeod

BoatMad wrote: »

No Government of any shade with the Eurozone capital limits that are imposed could build DU , without killing loads of other projects

DU is not the centre of the universe as far as capital project go.

The EU don't mind. What you are saying is that Leitrim etc. etc. has to get its fair share to keep us within capital limits.

Todays news and a quote from a different forum.

Was just on RTE 6.1 news now that in an EU country report Ireland got censured for our low capital spend on infrastructure. EU average is 3% of GDP (which the EU calls inadequate) and Ireland spends just 2% of GDP on capital projects. The EU says such a low spend is impeding our economic growth.

As part of the report they analysed Dublins traffic using data from GPS company Tom Tom. According to them Dublin is the 9th most congested city at peak times of the 200 worldwide cities that were surveyed. It said that Dublin has a worse traffic problem than the hugely congested LA, Beijing and Rio.

Its shocking stuff, especially more so with the recent failure to invest in MN and Dart Underground. Do we have to be labelled the most congested city in the world before our politicians will act? Is that what it will take? They seem to be able to hold off money for their auction politics for the elections but don't seem to mind if hundreds of thousands are sitting in traffic jams every day and suffering a time poor quality of life as a result. Not to mention the extra costs on transport and logistics companies, someone has to pay for all those delays and at the end of the day its going to be the customer at the till.

Idbatterim

I am just back from london as was laughing to myself over there at simply how amazing their transport system is , being able to get around so easy. And nobody is saying you can compare the scale of dublin and london, but I dont even think you can say dublin has a "transport system" its off the wall that I arrived into dublin airport, 25,000,000 passengers last year, probably close to 30,000,000 this year, i.e. a damn big airport and planning hasnt started on a rail link yet, and worse, the previous scheme with planning was scrapped!!! It took an hour and a half to get to the airport on Friday, driving through town.

At this stage if it is politically too difficult for these project to be build due to gombeen politics, coward politicians, whatever, is it time that a charge was levied on Dublin County only residents, for example, that would allow the finances to get MN and DU rolling? I would pay it at this stage, Dublin residents are already being done, with what leaves the county, and I dont know if you could call our infrastructure even third world, at this stage and within reason, I would be happy to extra for a decent transport system for all the benefits it would bring to dublin and the country...

Reuben1210

Idbatterim wrote: »

I am just back from london as was laughing to myself over there at simply how amazing their transport system is , being able to get around so easy. And nobody is saying you can compare the scale of dublin and london, but I dont even think you can say dublin has a "transport system" its off the wall that I arrived into dublin airport, 25,000,000 passengers last year, probably close to 30,000,000 this year, i.e. a damn big airport and planning hasnt started on a rail link yet, and worse, the previous scheme with planning was scrapped!!! It took an hour and a half to get to the airport on Friday, driving through town.

At this stage if it is politically too difficult for these project to be build due to gombeen politics, coward politicians, whatever, is it time that a charge was levied on Dublin County only residents, for example, that would allow the finances to get MN and DU rolling? I would pay it at this stage, Dublin residents are already being done, with what leaves the county, and I dont know if you could call our infrastructure even third world, at this stage and within reason, I would be happy to extra for a decent transport system for all the benefits it would bring to dublin and the country...

Transport and health should be ringfenced from budgets, like in France, so successive governemnts can't politicise them, and there is long term, strategic planning for these services, and for projects that are longer than one or two government terms.

This would be a fundamental and incredibly common sense and necessary change!

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

I am just back from london as was laughing to myself over there at simply how amazing their transport system is , being able to get around so easy. And nobody is saying you can compare the scale of dublin and london, but I dont even think you can say dublin has a "transport system" its off the wall that I arrived into dublin airport, 25,000,000 passengers last year, probably close to 30,000,000 this year, i.e. a damn big airport and planning hasnt started on a rail link yet, and worse, the previous scheme with planning was scrapped!!! It took an hour and a half to get to the airport on Friday, driving through town.

At this stage if it is politically too difficult for these project to be build due to gombeen politics, coward politicians, whatever, is it time that a charge was levied on Dublin County only residents, for example, that would allow the finances to get MN and DU rolling? I would pay it at this stage, Dublin residents are already being done, with what leaves the county, and I dont know if you could call our infrastructure even third world, at this stage and within reason, I would be happy to extra for a decent transport system for all the benefits it would bring to Dublin and the country...

You must have got London on a good day. Service disruption is a frequent event. Granted that's because much of their network is very old and over loaded.

We already have local property tax which is supposed to be for infrastructure but actually it was decided that Dublin's LPT would be 'redistributed' to other regions. So we can afford one of the world's largest 3 span cable stay bridges to carry the planned M25 Motorway from Waterford Town(pop 45,000) across to rural south Wexford costing €220m.

We can also afford the Tuam-Gort motorway that'll never see it's design capacity costing €700m.

And Sure there's Always the €750 mil for the Galway bypass( pop 75,000)

The state's most important airport and future international hub and the 1/4 million people living between it and the City Centre can go and sing because they're uppity Dubs.

monument

BoatMad wrote: »

That's a very sensible idea , so it's not going to be listened to of course

You are some bluffer.

You say the EU would not allow for the funding of Dart Underground.

Posters mention the European Investment Bank and Dart Underground but you dismiss them.

Another poster mentions the Eastern Bypass, an outer ring road and Dart Underground (ie likely x3 the cost of Dart Underground alone) and you think it's very sensible idea.

marmurr1916

monument wrote: »

You are some bluffer.

You say the EU would not allow for the funding of Dart Underground.

Posters mention the European Investment Bank and Dart Underground but you dismiss them.

Another poster mentions the Eastern Bypass, an outer ring road and Dart Underground (ie likely x3 the cost of Dart Underground alone) and you think it's very sensible idea.

The EU Commission has produced a report which says that infrastructure and capital spending should be increased in Ireland:

The European Commission's annual country report on Ireland warns that the Government's capital spending programme is inadequate for the country's needs.

The Commission has said that over the next three years in particular, capital spending will be underfunded because the Government has chosen to prioritise tax cuts and current spending increases over investment.

This report is critical of the Government for prioritising tax cuts over investment spending, particularly in education, public transport, energy and water infrastructure.

...

The report also says the new capital programme for the next government term will, even at its maximum point, leave spending one third lower than what it calls the already depressed EU average.

This, it warns, could negatively affect the country's growth prospects and the delivery of key public services.

It says a key weakness for the country is public transport in the car-dependent Dublin region.

The city is now ranked the ninth most congested of 200 cities worldwide at peak times - worse than Los Angeles, Beijing and Rio de Janeiro.

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/0301/771785-european-commission-report/

marmurr1916

Idbatterim wrote: »

I am just back from london as was laughing to myself over there at simply how amazing their transport system is , being able to get around so easy. And nobody is saying you can compare the scale of dublin and london, but I dont even think you can say dublin has a "transport system" its off the wall that I arrived into dublin airport, 25,000,000 passengers last year, probably close to 30,000,000 this year, i.e. a damn big airport and planning hasnt started on a rail link yet, and worse, the previous scheme with planning was scrapped!!! It took an hour and a half to get to the airport on Friday, driving through town.

At this stage if it is politically too difficult for these project to be build due to gombeen politics, coward politicians, whatever, is it time that a charge was levied on Dublin County only residents, for example, that would allow the finances to get MN and DU rolling? I would pay it at this stage, Dublin residents are already being done, with what leaves the county, and I dont know if you could call our infrastructure even third world, at this stage and within reason, I would be happy to extra for a decent transport system for all the benefits it would bring to dublin and the country...

HEATHROW Express, the operator of direct services between London Paddington and Heathrow Airport, has withdrawn its entire fleet of 14 four and five car class 332 EMUs after a structural defect was found on the underside of several cars during routine inspections earlier this week

The fleet is currently undergoing further examination and where necessary repair work will be carried out with the fleet out of service "for the foreseeable future." The operator says that trains' manufacturers, Siemens and CAF, have sent specialist engineers from Germany and Spain to assist with the work

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/rolling-stock/heathrow-express-flee-out-of-service.html?channel=529

D.L.R.

You get the feeling that if the EU offered to design, build and operate Dart Underground completely for free, the Irish state would still find reasons to delay it.

FreudianSlippers

monument wrote: »

You are some bluffer.

You say the EU would not allow for the funding of Dart Underground.

Posters mention the European Investment Bank and Dart Underground but you dismiss them.

Another poster mentions the Eastern Bypass, an outer ring road and Dart Underground (ie likely x3 the cost of Dart Underground alone) and you think it's very sensible idea.

If you read what I wrote, I said the EIB is more likely to invest in DU plus one of those two, given their stated preference for "large and long-term investments" and their refusal of projects which can be financed through taxation and/or a populous that can afford fares (etc.).

DU alone does not fit the bill for an EIB investment if you look at their policies.

Idbatterim

HEATHROW Express, the operator of direct services between London Paddington and Heathrow Airport, has withdrawn its entire fleet of 14 four and five car class 332 EMUs after a structural defect was found on the underside of several cars during routine inspections earlier this week

The fleet is currently undergoing further examination and where necessary repair work will be carried out with the fleet out of service "for the foreseeable future." The operator says that trains' manufacturers, Siemens and CAF, have sent specialist engineers from Germany and Spain to assist with the work

what has this got to do with anything, a colossal system experiences some difficulties?! The scale of the system there is unbelievable and some credit to the city and its engineers down through the ages and they are continuously building more lines! We have nothing, nothing!

Can the EC do anything about the situation here in terms of fines etc?

monument

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The EU Commission has produced a report which says that infrastructure and capital spending should be increased in Ireland:


http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/0301/771785-european-commission-report/

They and/or the EIB have been saying this for years. The EIB did the closest thing they could to beg the last government to use its funding.

My point is the inconsistency of the poster's position. If that only changed after the commission's draft report, then fair enough but the poster will have to say this themselves.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

If you read what I wrote, I said the EIB is more likely to invest in DU plus one of those two, given their stated preference for "large and long-term investments" and their refusal of projects which can be financed through taxation and/or a populous that can afford fares (etc.).

DU alone does not fit the bill for an EIB investment if you look at their policies.

This is not the case.

The EIB fund projects and packages of projects smaller than Dart Underground all the time.

The EIB have already indicated an interest in funding it and it also comes under the T-Ten funding as it is an approved T-Ten project.

Reuben1210

monument wrote: »

They and/or the EIB have been saying this for years. The EIB did the closest thing they could to beg the last government to use its funding.

My point is the inconsistency of the poster's position. If that only changed after the commission's draft report, then fair enough but the poster will have to say this themselves.



This is not the case.

The EIB fund projects and packages of projects smaller than Dart Underground all the time.

The EIB have already indicated an interest in funding it and it also comes under the T-Ten funding as it is an approved T-Ten project.

Also, EIB is providing a portion of funding for current road construction projects in the state, which are considerably smaller than the 2-3bn cost of DU.

FreudianSlippers

monument wrote: »

The EIB fund projects and packages of projects smaller than Dart Underground all the time.

Yes, as I pointed out (in DARt Underground's funding category) in areas where (i) the government is unable to finance it alone via PPP and/or (ii) where fares for use are inadequate to cover project expenditure over a set time.

It's almost inconceivable that in 2016 either of the two above could be said about DARTU.

The EIB have already indicated an interest in funding it and it also comes under the T-Ten funding as it is an approved T-Ten project.

No. I'm sorry they absolutely did not.

The only funding under the TEN-T EA was Priority Project 26 which included only the design and railway order phase of DARTU specifically related to the "City Centre Re-signalling Project" (see page 121) and only even mentions DARTU insofar as it would "support the realisation of a study to design a new signalling system between Connolly Station to Sandymount Station" to deal with "future increases as part of the Dart Underground Programme".

The EIB did not indicate that they would specifically provide any funding for Dart Underground, especially not pursuant to TEN-T.

FreudianSlippers

Reuben1210 wrote: »

Also, EIB is providing a portion of funding for current road construction projects in the state, which are considerably smaller than the 2-3bn cost of DU.

You don't seem to understand that the EIB isn't just a pot of money all mixed together. There are different schemes, different criteria and different levels of funding. If you look at the details of Priority Project 26 alone, you can see that there are a mix of TEN-T projects as well as ESC projects (etc.)

murphaph

None of the stuff Dublin needs will ever get built until Dublin has a directly elected mayor with executive powers over the region. The Dail is the enemy of Dublin IMO. It has never done anything of significance to improve Dublin's lot.

Idbatterim

None of the stuff Dublin needs will ever get built until Dublin has a directly elected mayor with executive powers over the region. The Dail is the enemy of Dublin IMO. It has never done anything of significance to improve Dublin's lot.

I cant even see us getting a mayor, far too many vested interests blocking it, the place being literally shut down totally by gridlock is the only thing that I can see happening, that will force the issue, the sooner the better!

Zebra3

Idbatterim wrote: »

I cant even see us getting a mayor, far too many vested interests blocking it, the place being literally shut down totally by gridlock is the only thing that I can see happening, that will force the issue, the sooner the better!

We're not far off it. Took me 50 minutes on the bus this evening to get from Swords to Drumcondra.