DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

Idbatterim wrote: »

the state own the office block though. Sure wasn't a station box for MN built at the mater?

Well as far as I'm aware they built one retaining wall there and of course the state also owns the green, but that hasn't had any positive repercussions for either of the two projects.

I would love MN and DU to go basically anywhere in central Dublin. I am not against Hawkins House at all, just stating the obvious that unfortunately it'll never see the light of day any more than the green will. The Dail has no interest in any of it.

Idbatterim

I am going to email Paschal Donoghue about it, I obviously dont have a clue if it is feasible at all geologically, if there is enough space etc, but the location is fantastic, wedged right between the luas line and tara street. build a small tunnel for pedestrian traffic to link to to Oconnell street...

Wasnt one of the cost saving measures in MN to reduce the amount of stops, around the OCS area?

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/redesignedmetronorth.pdf

yeah that link shows the image, so my proposal is to simply move the stop from OCS to the site i propose, with all of the *IFS, its a stonesthrow, 150m or so by the looks of it on google maps...

Khuitlio

Idbatterim wrote: »

I am going to email Paschal Donoghue about it, I obviously dont have a clue if it is feasible at all geologically, if there is enough space etc, but the location is fantastic, wedged right between the luas line and tara street. build a small tunnel for pedestrian traffic to link to to Oconnell street...

Wasnt one of the cost saving measures in MN to reduce the amount of stops, around the OCS area?

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/redesignedmetronorth.pdf

yeah that link shows the image, so my proposal is to simply move the stop from OCS to the site i propose, with all of the *IFS, its a stonesthrow, 150m or so by the looks of it on google maps...

I actually sent off a few emails this morning too.

Of course there may well be significant additional costs associated with that route alignment but it has many savings too.

• Much cheaper MN station that the original O'Connell Bridge Station.
• Economies of scale associated with building the two station boxes simultaneously.
• Shorter DU alignment.
• 1 less DU station (Pearse & Stephens Green -> Tara), with a 'relatively similar' coverage.

In my opinion it's a decent opportunity for a major interchange and should at least be looked at.

D.L.R.

Lads where do you think this is, Germany? Japan? Not a chance in hell the Irish state could pull something as complex as that off, in such a short timeframe. Plans for Hawkins rebuild are being submitted NEXT MONTH.

Pascal Donoghue gives no more of a bollix about a metro station here than he gives about the refugee crisis in Macedonia.

Idbatterim

Lads where do you think this is, Germany? Japan? Not a chance in hell the Irish state could pull something as complex as that off, in such a short timeframe. Plans are being submitted NEXT MONTH.

I am bloody sure its neither germany or japan unfortunately! complex? surely this would be the simple thing to do. If that monstrosity has to sit there for a while, before being knocked and replaced, so be it, if it can save hundred of millions potentially. The kip has been around since 1968, whats another year or two?

Put it this way, if this option isnt even thrown out there, there is no way it will happen, the chances being slim as it is...

D.L.R.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I am bloody sure its neither germany or japan unfortunately! complex? surely this would be the simple thing to do. If that monstrosity has to sit there for a while, before being renovated, so be it, if its can save hundred of millions potentially. The kip has been around since 1968, whats another year or two?

Put it this way, if this option isnt even thrown out there, there is no way it will happen, the chances being slim as it is...

Don't get me wrong, its a sound idea. But there is no way it'll happen.

1 - The OPW is submitting plans for a rebuild next month. That is no time at all. There will be no metro station in these plans you can be sure of that.

2 - There's no metro line planned here. You'd need to plan a whole line, which takes years.

3 - Ireland doesn't do joined up thinking - Where have you been the last 20 years???

Idbatterim

2 - There's no metro line planned here. You'd need to plan a whole line, which takes years.

optimised metro plans to run right down that area.

3 - Ireland doesn't do joined up thinking - Where have you been the last 20 years???

I agree, but I dont even look at Japan or Germany and go wow, what they do is just common sense. I am blown away by the morons we have here and the lack of vision and planning though...

Two schemes are mothballed and reduced budget versions announced, which are allegedly being worked on now. this proposal for hawkins house, could be a great solution handed to them on a plate!

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

optimised metro plans to run right down that area.

I agree, but I dont even look at Japan or Germany and go wow, what they do is just common sense. I am blown away by the morons we have here and the lack of vision and planning though...

Two schemes are mothballed and reduced budget versions announced, which are allegedly being worked on now. this proposal for hawkins house, could be a great solution handed to them on a plate!

You are too sensible. You are ahead of your time. You talk too much sense. You need to retire from the red tape laden, non-sensical and downright stupid approach to rail transport in Ireland and in particular Dublin.

Its just not worth the effort.

Khuitlio

Grandeeod wrote: »

You are too sensible. You are ahead of your time. You talk too much sense. You need to retire from the red tape laden, non-sensical and downright stupid approach to rail transport in Ireland and in particular Dublin.

Its just not worth the effort.

Incredibly frustrating but worth trying IMO

ricimaki

A line through Hawkins House would be difficult to connect to the existing lines.

Dart_Underground.JPG

The red line is the previous dart underground plan, and has a relatively gentle curve between Stephens Green and Docklands.
The blue line is one possible way to connect to Docklands station, but it is very tight at the approach, and would presumably cause trains to run at very slow speeds.
The yellow line is a possible change, by joining the northern line at Clontarf. This would be bad, as the Maynooth line, Connolly and Docklands stations would be bypassed. A way around this might be connecting it to a Connolly underground station, but that would surely cost more than the previous (red) route.

Unless there's a very sudden change in political interests, I can't see the Dart Underground being built at all.

Idbatterim

You are too sensible. You are ahead of your time. You talk too much sense. You need to retire from the red tape laden, non-sensical and downright stupid approach to rail transport in Ireland and in particular Dublin.

Its just not worth the effort.

a small victory in my mind, was when the joke option, of the luas on street running out to the airport option was ruled out. If they couldnt worm out of it then, during the recession, there is no way they will be able to now. With the large growth in employment, office space, massive need for housing, massive increase in car sales, dublin airport massive growth etc.

I reckon Dublin will get these schemes, but bloody when is the question, there was no point in having DU and MN original schemes, if the figures for them couldnt be stomached and meant they would never be built...

Unless there's a very sudden change in political interests, I can't see the Dart Underground being built at all.

they simply wont be able to get away with it indefinitely, I think gridlock, growth, the need for higher density housing, office etc is going to force the issue and that is the only thing that will get it going, it sure as hell wont be political will or lack thereof...

D.L.R.

Idbatterim wrote: »

optimised metro plans to run right down that area.

Not close enough to Hawkins block though. A good few hundred metres away. You'd need to re-route a whole section of metro, which means a redesigned route. By the time that happened, the new Hawkins House will already be up. There's just no time to do it, not to mention a complete lack of political will.

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

a small victory in my mind, was when the joke option, of the luas on street running out to the airport option was ruled out. If they couldnt worm out of it then, during the recession, there is no way they will be able to now. With the large growth in employment, office space, massive need for housing, massive increase in car sales, dublin airport massive growth etc.

I reckon Dublin will get these schemes, but bloody when is the question, there was no point in having DU and MN original schemes, if the figures for them couldnt be stomached and meant they would never be built...

they simply wont be able to get away with it indefinitely, I think gridlock, growth, the need for higher density housing, office etc is going to force the issue and that is the only thing that will get it going, it sure as hell wont be political will or lack thereof...

40 plus years talking about this. Originally at a time when Dublin traffic wasn't that bad. (the right time to talk about it)

During the entire noughties we talked the talk again, when traffic and planning was a complete disaster.

Now we are talking again. Do you see the trend here? Mark my words DU/MN will be talked and talked about and redesigned again and again and again, while never being built.

We have been here before and will be again. And this isn't rhetoric I'm delivering. My opinion is based on historical analysis. Nothing has changed at the decision maker level.

Idbatterim

Not close enough to Hawkins block though. A good few hundred metres away. You'd need to re-route a whole section of metro, which means a redesigned route. By the time that happened, the new Hawkins House will already be up. There's just no time to do it, not to mention a complete lack of political will.

but isnt the optimized metro north they are planning, a redesign of the MN route anyway?

40 plus years talking about this. Originally at a time when Dublin traffic wasn't that bad. (the right time to talk about it)

During the entire noughties we talked the talk again, when traffic and planning was a complete disaster.

Now we are talking again. Do you see the trend here? Mark my words DU/MN will be talked and talked about and redesigned again and again and again, while never being built.

We have been here before and will be again. And this isn't rhetoric I'm delivering. My opinion is based on historical analysis. Nothing has changed at the decision maker level.

ok, the way I see it and I am as pissed off as anyone at the situation and sent angry emails to the MOT etc. So we go from being a broke, come into a lot of money, these projects have gone through planning and the **** hits the fan with the economy, if it didnt, we would likely have MN and DU now. So **** hits the fan, the city needs these projects and the government need to be seen to do something, but there is no way that they will sanction the original schemes, for a whole host of reasons. So new cheaper and easier to sell to the country schemes are come up with and a compromise is found, isnt that the Irish way. Endless talk, dialogue, keep everyone happy and give them their say etc?

D.L.R.

Idbatterim wrote: »

but isnt the optimized metro north they are planning, a redesign of the MN route anyway?

Not really. Its the same route, just with fewer stations. The route isn't being moved as such.

BowWow

BowWow wrote: »

Personally I'd love to see Hawkins Hse/Apollo Hse as the site of a new Central Bus Station, replacing Busaras, with a walkway bridge linking to the new Tara Street Dart Station.
Luas will be outside the door of Hawkins Hse.
In the future an underground walkway could link to the O'Connell Bridge MN station - if ever built, or alternatively an underground station box could be built under the new Hawkins House to be used as part of any future Dublin Underground.
Would be the makings of a city centre transport hub.............

Post 56 in this thread - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057475101

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

but isnt the optimized metro north they are planning, a redesign of the MN route anyway?



ok, the way I see it and I am as pissed off as anyone at the situation and sent angry emails to the MOT etc. So we go from being a broke, come into a lot of money, these projects have gone through planning and the **** hits the fan with the economy, if it didnt, we would likely have MN and DU now. So **** hits the fan, the city needs these projects and the government need to be seen to do something, but there is no way that they will sanction the original schemes, for a whole host of reasons. So new cheaper and easier to sell to the country schemes are come up with and a compromise is found, isnt that the Irish way. Endless talk, dialogue, keep everyone happy and give them their say etc?

Apologies, but you are not quite right. Despite massive amounts of money during the so called "Celtic Tiger" years, there still wasn't any genuine committment to build anything. So much fudging went on that I'd be here all night, tomorrow and next week, trying to explain it.

Realise one very important fact.

During the richest and most prosperous periods in the states history, we achieved no better rail infrastructure project than the DART, which was built on borrowed money in the late 70s early 80s. You may mention roads/motorways, but they were built by PPP and we currently still pay for them. Lots and lots of piecemeal stuff went on, but nothing major.

The lack of DU and MN is a very simple example of politicians having absolutely no conviction or will to actually building it while throwing money at planning it all when money was plentiful.

Grandeeod

BowWow wrote: »

Post 56 in this thread - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057475101

Crayola baloney.

Idbatterim

Grandeeod wrote: »

The lack of DU and MN is a very simple example of politicians having absolutely no conviction or will to actually building it while throwing money at planning it all when money was plentiful.

Hang on so after all the planning, design, , hearings, planning permission granted etc, you think that had the boom continued, MN and du wouldn't have went to construction?

murphaph

Idbatterim wrote: »

Hang on so after all the planning, design, , hearings, planning permission granted etc, you think that had the boom continued, MN and du wouldn't have went to construction?

Well, look at it this way...current interest rates are at historic lows. Now would be a "good time" to finance either or both of these projects, but instead they have been cancelled.

Critical infrastructure for Dublin is a vote lose for the rural TD. Dublin is hobbled by Dail Eireann. It was getting too big for its boots during the days of Dublin County Council, so the Dail simply broke it up a la Margaret Thatcher and the GLC, which had been done a few years previously.

It's not just that significant numbers of rural voters are ambivalent towards infrastructure for the capital. They are really upset by it, so long as their local library has a leaking roof (or so long as they have no Olympic sized swimming pool in the parish or whatever).

There is a serious lack of comprehension about the important role Dublin plays in our economy. People think you could slice it up into bits and scatter it across the four provinces and you'd get the same benefits. They simply don't understand how cities work and don't appreciate that we need at least one city of international importance to be at the races at all.

Dublin needs a directly elected mayor with real powers, including tax raising and spending. Getting that for Dublin is the key to everything else.

keane2097

Have there ever been any protests against DU and/or MN by rural people?

murphaph

keane2097 wrote: »

Have there ever been any protests against DU and/or MN by rural people?

You don't have to go on a march to be opposed to something. I'm sure you are opposed to many things, against which you've never taken to the streets.

By the way, in case it isn't immediately obvious, some rural people don't care about DU/MN and some are even in favour of one/both. But most rural people are not fans of either, once the projects are explained to them (especially the price tags). To pretend otherwise would be silly.

Idbatterim

Well, look at it this way...current interest rates are at historic lows. Now would be a "good time" to finance either or both of these projects, but instead they have been cancelled.

Critical infrastructure for Dublin is a vote lose for the rural TD. Dublin is hobbled by Dail Eireann. It was getting too big for its boots during the days of Dublin County Council, so the Dail simply broke it up a la Margaret Thatcher and the GLC, which had been done a few years previously.

It's not just that significant numbers of rural voters are ambivalent towards infrastructure for the capital. They are really upset by it, so long as their local library has a leaking roof (or so long as they have no Olympic sized swimming pool in the parish or whatever).

There is a serious lack of comprehension about the important role Dublin plays in our economy. People think you could slice it up into bits and scatter it across the four provinces and you'd get the same benefits. They simply don't understand how cities work and don't appreciate that we need at least one city of international importance to be at the races at all.

Dublin needs a directly elected mayor with real powers, including tax raising and spending. Getting that for Dublin is the key to everything else.

I agree with this all of this. You know what though, why are we blaming the rural td's and many people who live there, who dont have a clue how things work, like you say. These people dont have a clue, you would think the ones we elect should have, or their armies of consultants... :rolleyes:

I think we need to start looking closer to home, why arent the significant numbers of dublin td's looking for our fair share? Because I actually believe that rural Ireland thinks its being shafted. As a Dub, I would actually say I know, rather than think we are being shafted, look at the money flying out of Dublin to subsidize the rest of the country...

also I agree about dublin, throw in a good transport system, get builders building again en masse but not at lunacy property prices etc, sensible lending and dublin could be contributing far more to the problems this country faces. What is laughable is, that rural ignorance is actually shafting the whole country, potentially even the rest of the country more than Dublin...

Idbatterim

Could I trouble you to request an example of "rural ignorance" delaying progress in Dublin?

ever heard of dublin gets everything? do you believe it, most outside of Dublin do. Dublin is getting way less than its "fair share" and this is due to this perceived notion and Dublin TD's apparently being useless at pushing Dublins agenda, the way the rural TD's push theirs and who can blame them?!

I read the below yesterday "there should be no caving into rural populists" echos my sentiment exactly...

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/dan-obrien/there-should-be-no-caving-in-to-rural-populists-34593809.html

keane2097

murphaph wrote: »

You don't have to go on a march to be opposed to something. I'm sure you are opposed to many things, against which you've never taken to the streets.

By the way, in case it isn't immediately obvious, some rural people don't care about DU/MN and some are even in favour of one/both. But most rural people are not fans of either, once the projects are explained to them (especially the price tags). To pretend otherwise would be silly.

Have you anything to back that up at all?

keane2097

Idbatterim wrote: »

ever heard of dublin gets everything? do you believe it, most outside of Dublin do.

[citation needed]

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

Hang on so after all the planning, design, , hearings, planning permission granted etc, you think that had the boom continued, MN and du wouldn't have went to construction?

Yes.

Grandeeod

Deedsie wrote: »

I just want to clarify I live in Dublin, I totally support investment in infrastructure in Dublin. It's badly badly needed. I just think the rural versus urban argument is a bit of a bogus divergence.

And giving it credence just gives representatives an excuse for not doing their jobs properly. Just my opinion. Not trying to pick an argument.

That's very balanced. As one of the people that started this "rural" argument, I'd like to clarify that I am coming at it on the basis of a lot of Dublin TD's over the years not being inherently linked with Dublin and from a more rural background. If you look at the Ministers responsible for Transport (those in temporary office not included) during the boom years starting from 1996, it reads like this.

1996 - Michael Lowry. In that position from 1994.
1997 - 2002 - Mary O'Rourke.
2002 - 2004 - Seamus Brennan.(Dublin TD from Galway)
2004 - 2007 - Martin Cullen.
2007 - 2011 - Noel Dempsey.

None of them are from Dublin. All of them were of a fairly decent age while in office. None of them could have any semblence of Dublin's transport problems or the badly needed solutions. All of them were very poor in office. Now that's just the Ministers. Don't for one minute think that Dublin based TDs from non Dublin backgrounds cared any more than the Ministers. The opposition Transport spokespersons from the years above were equally appalling.

The Phoenix Park Tunnel is being reopened by a FG Government, because they embraced it, in opposition, (2003) as an alternative to what they considered the astronomical cost of DU. Dennis Naughton from Roscommon was their Transport spokesperson then. It took them less than 2 years in Government to green light it. Two years later they canned DU.

I could go on, but honestly there is a rural issue towards developing rail transport in our capital city.

Idbatterim

Yes.

right boom continues, what would have stopped it, the every increasing congestion etc?!

I was on the aviation forum earlier, reading about the second dublin airport runway, 4 years before planning was granted! It wasnt simply "oh lets build a metro to the airport and start next week" job. huge amounts of planning and finance had gone into it, **** hits the fan, of course those project were going to go, being a realist living in Ireland.

can you imagine "3,000,000,000" metro works progress in Dublin, while Guardai eat cardboard" "children go to school hungry" take your pick...

liamog

Grandeeod wrote: »

That's very balanced. As one of the people that started this "rural" argument, I'd like to clarify that I am coming at it on the basis of a lot of Dublin TD's over the years not being inherently linked with Dublin and from a more rural background. If you look at the Ministers responsible for Transport (those in temporary office not included) during the boom years starting from 1996, it reads like this.

1996 - Michael Lowry. In that position from 1994.
1997 - 2002 - Mary O'Rourke.
2002 - 2004 - Seamus Brennan.(Dublin TD from Galway)
2004 - 2007 - Martin Cullen.
2007 - 2011 - Noel Dempsey.

None of them are from Dublin. All of them were of a fairly decent age while in office. None of them could have any semblence of Dublin's transport problems or the badly needed solutions. All of them were very poor in office. Now that's just the Ministers. Don't for one minute think that Dublin based TDs from non Dublin backgrounds cared any more than the Ministers. The opposition Transport spokespersons from the years above were equally appalling.

The Phoenix Park Tunnel is being reopened by a FG Government, because they embraced it, in opposition, (2003) as an alternative to what they considered the astronomical cost of DU. Dennis Naughton from Roscommon was their Transport spokesperson then. It took them less than 2 years in Government to green light it. Two years later they canned DU.

I could go on, but honestly there is a rural issue towards developing rail transport in our capital city.

You've conveniently left out the time that Leo Varadker was Minister for Transport, a Dublin TD for a constituency that would of seen benefits from DU in particular.

Edit

I actually agree with your point though.