DART+ (DART Expansion)

L1011

Pretending not to remember what happened the last countless times you went around in circles doesn't wash.

Your arguments have been destroyed every time. Your invented figures range from tripling the claimed reduction in distance and pulling figures out of thin air for tunneling costs

strassenwo!f

L1011 wrote: »

Pretending not to remember what happened the last countless times you went around in circles doesn't wash.

No, I remember, but the majority of the board reading this probably don't.

L1011 wrote: »

Your arguments have been destroyed every time. Your invented figures range from tripling the claimed reduction in distance and pulling figures out of thin air for tunneling costs

No, they haven't been destroyed, at any stage. I obviously can't determine exactly how much shorter an eventual route via College Green (or Hawkins House) might be, but College Green would unquestionably be considerably shorter, and Hawkins House probably too. With College Green we might be talking up to one kilometre of a saving on tunnelling in that central area. but certainly somewhere between 500 metres and 1 km seems probable.

With the Hawkins House idea, the savings issue would be considerably different, and would largely depend on the alignment, which I mentioned above: East-West, probably incorporating Pearse and Spencer Dock (which should cost broadly around the same as a route via College Green, i.e. cheaper than a circuitous route via St. Spephen's Green), or South-West to/from North-East, probably bypassing both of those and instead going directly to/from Connolly, almost certainly achieving considerable cost saving but also very possibly not being the optimum in terms of passenger uptake and delivery.

There are many imponderables about a potential cross-city route. When it was planned, the LUAS was at St. Stephen's Green only, but whenever it is built it will be at St. Stephen's Green, College Green and many other places in the centre of the city. We also don''t, it appears, have any considerable knowledge on the board about, for example, the situation with the soil in any of those locations.

When the occasion has demanded it, I have always tried to put a ball-park figure on what that might cost. As far as I remember, those efforts have never been seriously questioned, being as they were quite obviously ball-park figures, and L1011's allegation that I misled the board at any stage needs to be challenged. He should provide a concrete example, in my view.

Sam Russell

Mod: @strassenwo!f

I have moved this type of argument concerning College Green that you keep bringing up into its own thread. You were the only contributor to that thread. I assume therefore that you are the only one interested in it and so you are coming close to trolling.

Please leave it alone. Otherwise ....

Muahahaha

Grandeeod wrote: »

Once again I will emphasise that I referred to the boom years. Varadker and Donohue don't count. Dukes was only in the roll temporarily. Brennan was from Galway and served twice as transport minister. Dempsey was reared in Meath long before it was considered a suburb of Dublin. As for all this living in Dublin and going to College thing, it means nothing. They grew up in rural, car dependent Ireland. Nothing slanted about what I have said.

Wasn't it Dempsey who had a pet project of reopening the Navan-Dublin railway? He couldn't even get that over the line at a time he was transport minister and the country was awash with money. He really was a useless minister, even for his own people in Navan.

murphaph wrote: »

Infrastructure should be apolitical but it isn't. It can't be, because it costs money that means things that are obviously political (pensions, social welfare etc.) receive less if infrastructure receives more.

AFAIK in France they have ring fenced infrastructural spending to something like 2% of GDP. Its the only way to do it to help the very notion of spending on infrastructure become apolitical. There'll still be politics involved in which actual projects will be funded but by ring fencing the spending at least they are investing in infrastructure year on year. Thats no bad thing IMO but I doubt we'll be seeing it here where politicians prefer to use spending as a slush fund to get re-elected. At least the election just gone has been a bit of a game changer in that regard, FG dangled tax cuts in front of the electorate and they were returned with a lot less seats than they had in 2011.

strassenwo!f

Is there any word on IE's latest plans for this project? There was a plan - a rather silly one, in my view - to electrify all the mainline routes and to enable them to utilise this proposed tunnel. It all seem to have gone a bit off the boil. Anybody know?

Paddico

Do IE have latest news bulletin on this anywhere, even if its 5 years out of date?

1huge1

http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/dart-expansion-programme

murphaph

Oh there are lots of plans. No shortage of grand plans whatsoever.

MJohnston

Regarding Independents influencing Infrastructure spending:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/how-micheal-martin-won-the-sweetest-deal-in-fianna-fail-history-34686721.html

The Irish Independent understands that Irish Rail CEO David Franks was also called to Government Buildings this week to brief TDs on the possibility of extending the Western Rail Corridor which runs from Ennis to Athenry.

-_-

Carawaystick

MJohnston wrote: »

Regarding Independents influencing Infrastructure spending:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/how-micheal-martin-won-the-sweetest-deal-in-fianna-fail-history-34686721.html



-_-

Is that to connect Ennis to Limerick all year round?;)

Sam Russell

Carawaystick wrote: »

Is that to connect Ennis to Limerick all year round?;)

I think it would be to elevate the bit that is under water because it inconveniences both passengers using the service when the line is closed due to floods.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think it would be to elevate the bit that is under water because it inconveniences both passengers using the service when the line is closed due to floods.

The bus has no tables to have the flask out on and because its faster there's no time for a game of cards!

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

Regarding Independents influencing Infrastructure spending:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/how-micheal-martin-won-the-sweetest-deal-in-fianna-fail-history-34686721.html



-_-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_Ja02gTY

Pete_Cavan

[font=Verdana, sans-serif]If the CEO of IE did brief the government on [/font]the possibility of extending the Western Rail Corridor, he could not have said anything other than operating the route would cripple the company.

cgcsb

How could we possibly be talking about a rail route to Tuam with a government that wouldn't spend a small amount preserving the DART underground planning?

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

How could we possibly be talking about a rail route to Tuam with a government that wouldn't spend a small amount preserving the DART underground planning?

Surely a motorway to Tuam is sufficient?

Pete_Cavan

marno21 wrote: »

Surely a motorway to Tuam is sufficient?

They should have a bus service to connect with trains in Athenry if getting a train is so important. There is unlikely to be capacity on the single track between Athenry and Galway for any meaningful level of service between Tuam and Galway so it would probably have to be a shuttle anyway.

marno21

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

They should have a bus service to connect with trains in Athenry if getting a train is so important. There is unlikely to be capacity on the single track between Athenry and Galway for any meaningful level of service between Tuam and Galway so it would probably have to be a shuttle anyway.

Especially seeing as the motorway is actually going from Athenry to Tuam!

Anyway, this is very off topic. Back to DU.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

Surely a motorway to Tuam is sufficient?

You would think after the nearly billion quid went into the Gort-Tuam motorway, which will never come close to it's design capacity. Tuam ain't doing too bad if it also gets fixed rail services, population 8,000.

Either every man woman and child will be using the motorway and railway hourly for 18 hours a day or there are some very powerful politicians up there.

Meanwhile work continues on linking Dublin's 2 light rail lines so that the metropolitan area's 2 million residence may come slightly closer to something resembling an integrated public transport system. Dart Underground and electrification of the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines will soon be celebrating their 50th year in planning.

In Cork we've yet to see a design for the proposed BRT system, downgraded from luas for 'cost' reasons. The C word obviously only carries meaning inside the M50 and N40, otherwise money is no object.

I see investigation work is ongoing for what will be Ireland's largest bridge carrying a new 4 lane motorway bypassing the bustling metropolis of New Ross and it's existing inner relief road. Funny that they recently closed a parallel railway route due to lack of use.


/rant

tharlear

I see investigation work is ongoing for what will be Ireland's largest bridge carrying a new 4 lane motorway bypassing the bustling metropolis of New Ross and it's existing inner relief road. Funny that they recently closed a parallel railway route due to lack of use.

How many times does the concept of a national motorway system need to be explained. The m50 and commuter motorways such as the M2 and M3 do not constitute a national motorway system

spuddy

tharlear wrote: »

How many times does the concept of a national motorway system need to be explained. The m50 and commuter motorways such as the M2 and M3 do not constitute a national motorway system

I think the point here is about priority. Is the development of this section of the national motorway network of greater or lesser importance than DART underground? It might be, the problem in Ireland is there is no debate, no prioritisation, and that's deeply unsatisfying for a great many of us here.

murphaph

cgcsb wrote: »

You would think after the nearly billion quid went into the Gort-Tuam motorway, which will never come close to it's design capacity. Tuam ain't doing too bad if it also gets fixed rail services, population 8,000.

Either every man woman and child will be using the motorway and railway hourly for 18 hours a day or there are some very powerful politicians up there.

Meanwhile work continues on linking Dublin's 2 light rail lines so that the metropolitan area's 2 million residence may come slightly closer to something resembling an integrated public transport system. Dart Underground and electrification of the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines will soon be celebrating their 50th year in planning.

In Cork we've yet to see a design for the proposed BRT system, downgraded from luas for 'cost' reasons. The C word obviously only carries meaning inside the M50 and N40, otherwise money is no object.

I see investigation work is ongoing for what will be Ireland's largest bridge carrying a new 4 lane motorway bypassing the bustling metropolis of New Ross and it's existing inner relief road. Funny that they recently closed a parallel railway route due to lack of use.


/rant

Time for Dublin and Cork to push for their own directly elected mayor with executive powers including tax raising and spending. Only then will the lunacy end.

Grandeeod

murphaph wrote: »

Time for Dublin and Cork to push for their own directly elected mayor with executive powers including tax raising and spending. Only then will the lunacy end.

We agree on quite a bit, and I must admit, I'm dismayed by the lack of support a lot here have for the theory that Dublin's problems are down to the rural nature of the politicical set up. In the last debate, I saw nothing that came anywhere near justifying it.

Charles Babbage

murphaph wrote: »

Time for Dublin and Cork to push for their own directly elected mayor with executive powers including tax raising and spending. Only then will the lunacy end.

No, that will not end the lunacy, just distribute it differently.
What is needed is assessment and planning, but many here only agree with that when it suits their particular agenda.

Grandeeod

Charles Babbage wrote: »

No, that will not end the lunacy, just distribute it differently.
What is needed is assessment and planning, but many here only agree with that when it suits their particular agenda.

In all fairness, the current political set up just doesn't lend itself to the sense you are talking. Today we had the formation of a Government that wasn't actually in the national interest, but in the interest of utter political BS gameplaying.

Reuben1210

Grandeeod wrote: »

In all fairness, the current political set up just doesn't lend itself to the sense you are talking. Today we had the formation of a Government that wasn't actually in the national interest, but in the interest of utter political BS gameplaying.

On that point, anyone know Shane Ross's thoughts on PT, and more specifically on the DU and metro north plans?

Sam Russell

Reuben1210 wrote: »

On that point, anyone know Shane Ross's thoughts on PT, and more specifically on the DU and metro north plans?

Do they pass through Dublin South?

Grandeeod

Reuben1210 wrote: »

On that point, anyone know Shane Ross's thoughts on PT, and more specifically on the DU and metro north plans?

Has no interest bar the usual political stance. He was once worried by any destruction of the Green for the construction of MN, while welcoming the project.

Personally, he has this portfolio, while waiting for FF to bring down the Government over the next 12 months.

L1011

cgcsb wrote: »

New Ross and it's existing inner relief road

Totally non-functional inner relief road.

Most 1980s "bypasses" were below standard on the day they opened. Letterkenny, Carrick-on-Shannon, Galway, New Ross, etc, etc.

marno21

L1011 wrote: »

Totally non-functional inner relief road.

Most 1980s "bypasses" were below standard on the day they opened. Letterkenny, Carrick-on-Shannon, Galway, New Ross, etc, etc.

Add Limerick, Castlebar and Killarney to that list.

One bridge in New Ross going forward is not feasable, especially on a national route with large amounts of HGVs.

It's TEN-T route too so would have to be done.

New Ross needs its bypass as much as Dublin needs Metro North and Dublin Underground. The point is both should be proceeding, not starving the funding for crucial transport projects.