DART+ (DART Expansion)

KCAccidental

probably would add to the cost to make the tunnel suitable for Diesel trains no?

Grandeeod

KCAccidental wrote: »

probably would add to the cost to make the tunnel suitable for Diesel trains no?

As far as I knew, it was suitable for diesel trains, (commuter) but not for IC trains, for different reasons. But it wasn't planned to run Diesel trains via the tunnel anyway.

strassenwo!f

In answer to nowecant's question, there was some mention in our earlier discussion of this important project about an Irish Rail plan to electrify most (or perhaps all) of the mainline tracks in Ireland to accomodate Intercity trains in the tunnel.

I've no source for any official document for this idea.

strassenwo!f

Grandeeod wrote: »

No and No.

There appears to have been a plan to run intercity trains through the tunnel. That plan would hardly have emerged if it wasn't possible.

While I agree that there could be, based on what we've seen in other cities, room to accomodate such traffic, perhaps at night, the volumes are overall quite small and much more could be done by looking at the possibilties of introducing spurs from the proposed tunnel and its associated Western line toward Western areas of the population who would be using this tunnel twice a day and five days a week, rather than providing a slightly better service for people who certainly would use it much less regularly.

I think what Grandeeod probably meant to say, instead of 'no and no', was 'yes' and 'who knows'.

I'd guess that's probably what he meant.

nowecant

Ok, well here is another question.

If it has to go through the full planning process again, I believe it is likely with the same route will be used

What would be cost implications to design the tunnel to take intercity trains? are we talking +10% or +100% ?

I understand there would be issue with ventilation, and likely height but surely this would be of huge benefit to the network?

strassenwo!f

Why would the same route be used?

It had never appeared before the LUAS green line got stuck at St. Stephen's Green - thanks to Mammy O'Rourke. A main aim of the original plan was integration of all rail modes, and the only way to do that was by building a rather circuitous route via St. Stephen's Green.: the LUAS was nowhere else in what would broadly be termed the city centre. It had to go there.

Now that the LUAS is going to other locations in the city centre, indeed most of the major locations in the city from North to South, there is no reason for the big loop. Much as proposed in the DRRTS proposal in 1975, a fairly straight route should now be possible.

D.L.R.

nowecant wrote: »

Ok, well here is another question.

If it has to go through the full planning process again, I believe it is likely with the same route will be used

What would be cost implications to design the tunnel to take intercity trains? are we talking +10% or +100% ?

I understand there would be issue with ventilation, and likely height but surely this would be of huge benefit to the network?

Power is the issue, not tunnel size. Its not feasible to run diesel trains through it. You'd need to fully electrify any service that wants access. The only electrified mainline in the country is the Dart line.

Markcheese

There are hybrid trains in europe that basically run on electric batteries in tunnels and diesel electric when out.. now i'm sure its not as simple as that... and obviously theres a cost but its possible..

afatbollix

It should be a commuter tunnel only.

In years to come they should build a inter city fast train line cork to Belfast but were years off that yet.

MJohnston

I thought most of the point of DU was to segregate the DART from Intercity services?

D.L.R.

MJohnston wrote: »

I thought most of the point of DU was to segregate the DART from Intercity services?

Not really. Apart from the tunnel itself and the 4-track Kildare line, Darts will share track with intercity.

strassenwo!f

afatbollix wrote: »

It should be a commuter tunnel only.

In years to come they should build a inter city fast train line cork to Belfast but were years off that yet.

It would certainly make sense for it to be a commuter tunnel only. But while cities like Munich and Frankfurt, both give or take Dublin's size, have had similar cross-city commuter-only tunnels in operation for decades now - and we've seen how very effective they are - the Department of Transport in Ireland seem to be more busy creating offshoots than actually doing something similar themselves.

The Dublin Transportation Office, the National Transport Agency and whatever the f**k it is now.

It's very, very disappointing.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It would certainly make sense for it to be a commuter tunnel only. But while cities like Munich and Frankfurt, both give or take Dublin's size, have had similar cross-city commuter-only tunnels in operation for decades now - and we've seen how very effective they are - the Department of Transport in Ireland seem to be more busy creating offshoots than actually doing something similar themselves.

The Dublin Transportation Office, the National Transport Agency and whatever the f**k it is now.

It's called the National Transport Authority and anybody with half a clue about transport in Ireland should know that after it has had that name for nearly five years now.

The idea and structure of the NTA are similar to the set up in many other countries. And as for the Department of Transport being busy creating offshoots -- how valid is that when the NTA merged the DTO and taxi regulator, and the NRA and RPA were merged... what exact new bodies have the department created recently?

Heartbreak Hank

nowecant wrote: »

Can anyone tell me was Dart Underground meant to be able to accommodate Intercity trains?

e.g. Belfast - Dublin Docklands - Heuston - Cork

Also, as planning has lapsed is there any way that it can be fast tracked the second time if it was decided to go ahead with it?

Thanks

Posted this previously:

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

From Iarnród Éireann's 2030 Rail Network Strategy Review Final Report October, 2011

"Phase 3: 2020-2025: Electrification of the Core Rail Network

When sufficient growth has occurred and rolling stock replacement is approaching, electrification of Dublin-Galway and Dublin Cork will yield significant returns. This should encompass direct services to Dublin City Centre and Dublin Airport via the DART Underground."

Presumably, this would also allow Cork - Belfast trains if the full Northern Line was electrified also so there would be a national benefit - not just a Dublin-centric one. Granted all that could be hundreds of years away.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/irishrail_28febfinal_part11.pdf

yannakis

Do we have any indication when the rolling stock replacement is approaching?

D.L.R.

I see no requirement at all for intercity services through the tunnel, or a Belfast-Cork service. There's no demand for it.

All we need is a simple, reliable transfer for Belfast-Cork passengers and there's a couple of options to achieve that.

Don't see a problem with Commuter services using DU though, by creating say a Portlaoise-Dundalk service, which will really just be a longer distance Dart. The bigger problem is the Northern line remaining two tracks, and that will have to be addressed... one day.

dublinman1990

Putting Diesel commuter trains on the same DART Underground line wouldn't be necessary IMO.

For one thing if a commuter train was going along the DU lines; it probably wouldn't be as fast as the DU because it will slow down it's journey time if there another DART up ahead at another platform. I think the most useful way is to let commuter trains use the PPT to get to Connolly to prevent possible delays on DU. I'd let DU use it's own seperate tunnel without the need for potentially jamming the DU network to a halt by other services when it officially gets completed.

I read from some rail enthusiast magazines, which included reports on developments on Irish Rail every month, they would gotten information that the proposed frequency from IE on DU years ago was one DART U train every 3 minutes or twenty DARTs per hour in either direction. That information came from the same original proposal for DART U on IE's website. If these proposed DART U frequencies were changed well then I'm open all ears as to what they could be if the original proposal wasn't achievable.

If a commuter train was stuck on the DART U line; it would have to be stuck inbetween the DARTs by trying to get through to their destination by being very slow going from station to station or even slower if it was a non-stop service on the DART U line.

I would let the commuter go through the original DART line, let it branch off at a point from Clontarf Road to Docklands station & then use the PPT to get the much quicker journey to say out to Kildare or whatever. Or IE could build a seperate line for commuter trains to Kildare from Howth Junction to Docklands & then use that line to get to the PPT out to Hueston.

LeinsterDub

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/new-liffey-bridge-put-on-hold-due-to-dart-underground-1.2712750

Some interesting DU news

cgcsb

15 to 18 months for a review, oh the excitement. I won't get excited until a TBM gets lowered into the ground.

D.L.R.

Idbatterim

15 to 18 months for a review, oh the excitement. I won't get excited until a TBM gets lowered into the ground.

here is my review. Wait till this bloody city grinds to a halt again this autumn / winter with the crap weather, kids back to school, colleges back...

In a way, the longer it is left, the likely the better scheme we will get, seeing as they change their minds every five minutes!!! *

*once we continue steady growth and dont go back to bust town again...

marno21

The then minister for transport Paschal Donohoe said the tunnel element of Dart Underground as currently planned would have cost €3 billion, and the proposal had been drawn up a decade ago when the country was in a very different position regarding growth projections and travel patterns.

Nothing has changed, and nothing will. The city still grinds to a halt every morning & evening, is incredibly reliant in cars, has a disconnected rail network and has no current plans for improvement with growth still happening.

They can either spend the money now, and reap the rewards, or wait and spend the money when the situation becomes out of control

syklops

A committee is a group of people who individually can do nothing but collectively can agree that nothing can be done.

Sums up Irish politics.

I sometimes wish we were a dictatorship.

salmocab

syklops wrote: »

A committee is a group of people who individually can do nothing but collectively can agree that nothing can be done.

Sums up Irish politics.

I sometimes wish we were a dictatorship.

A camel is a horse designed by a committee

salmocab

The most annoying thing about that article is that it does make sense to ensure the bridge doesn't interfere with the DU but f*** me when will they just come up with a proper plan and stick to it.

Grandeeod

If this country was awash with money, DU would still not be built.

murphaph

Grandeeod wrote: »

If this country was awash with money, DU would still not be built.

Correct and this spiting of Dublin may really cost us if London based banks decide to avoid Dublin because of its very poor transport links in a post Brexit world. The jobs may stay in London depending on what happens but Dublin will be hard pressed to beat the likes of Amsterdam if a hard Brexit does come to pass.

Ben D Bus

murphaph wrote: »

Correct and this spiting of Dublin may really cost us if London based banks decide to avoid Dublin because of its very poor transport links in a post Brexit world. The jobs may stay in London depending on what happens but Dublin will be hard pressed to beat the likes of Amsterdam if a hard Brexit does come to pass.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/business/after-brexit-finding-a-new-london-for-the-financial-world-to-call-home.html

Funny enough, lack of infrastructure is exactly what will hurt us according to the NYT

Idbatterim

Ha the usual! **** infrastructure and again an article raised the cost of housing in Dublin today and its effect on our competitiveness! Relatively small airport mentioned in my times article. Id say a tad under 30 million will use it the year. Ridiculous level of uk connectivity. Very good to continental Europe and North America...

These idiots here will only act, rather might only act. If they are shamed into it. I read earlier there is office accomodation in docklands being planned or built to house 25,000 workers. Accomodation planned in the area will house 5,000. I suppose the other 20,000 will use our class transport system lol!

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ha the usual! **** infrastructure and again an article raised the cost of housing in Dublin today and its effect on our competitiveness! Relatively small airport mentioned in my times article. Id say a tad under 30 million will use it the year. Ridiculous level of uk connectivity. Very good to continental Europe and North America...

No problems with the airport,it's connectivity in the city that's the issue.
I used to live in Northampton and frequently had to go to the centre of London as a commuter, a typical journey would be 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 hours from the house to the desk this covering 50 miles and including a change to the tube and another tube plus 10 minute walk.

The same in Dublin is at best 2 1/2 to 3 hours!

No contest!!!!