DART+ (DART Expansion)

BonnieSituation

D.L.R. wrote: »

Why is driving the tunnel in that direction a bad thing in your view? Geology? Heritage?

The world and its mother knows that that part of Dublin is a goldmine. For the politically expedient it would be better not knowing what's down there than digging it up a la Wood Quay.

Incidentally, I work in one of the Stephenson's Bunkers and every day I die a little inside knowing what went on to put them there.

*shudders*

Markcheese

BonnieSituation wrote:

Also the cost of finance is at an all time low. We should be borrowing to beat the band or public transport infrastructure works. There should be tbms going under city all over the place to finally give us a integrated transport system.

Yup the cost of borrowing is really low, but there are rules about how much can be borrowed, and after the feck ups of the past the government has to show it s being responsible.... of course by not building it risks showing it has no ambition..

D.L.R.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The world and its mother knows that that part of Dublin is a goldmine. For the politically expedient it would be better not knowing what's down there than digging it up a la Wood Quay.

Incidentally, I work in one of the Stephenson's Bunkers and every day I die a little inside knowing what went on to put them there.

*shudders*

One of the reasons Wood Quay was such a loathsome crime is there was no pressing need to build in that specific location. It was a land grab by unscrupulous people.

But unlike the Wood Quay development, DU can't really avoid the area, and DU is an economic imperative.

murphaph

In Rome they just plow through the stuff and the justification given is that if the metro had never been built the artefacts would never have been found either. There is a strange logic to the argument.

salmocab

murphaph wrote: »

In Rome they just plow through the stuff and the justification given is that if the metro had never been built the artefacts would never have been found either. There is a strange logic to the argument.

In fairness if something is buried deep enough its probably never going to be found

Grandeeod

D.L.R. wrote: »

Nah, we're only talking an extra mile of four tracking between Inchicore and Heuston. The cutting between Inchicore and Heuston is less than 1000m long, its not very deep, and there are only 3-4 bridges. We've built motorway projects on a far larger scale.

The question is whether its is cheaper than an extra 2km of tunnelling+tunnel lining materials and so on and it looks like a question that's being seriously asked.

I doubt it would be cheaper and the amount of disruption it would cause would be huge. Motorway projects are irrelevant. They are greenfield sites.

Grandeeod

D.L.R. wrote: »

Preaching to the converted mate. But I'm arguing in the context of the state insisting on saving money, and how a phased delivery might be a viable budgetary solution. Christchurch in this context as being part of a second phase of works directly following phase 1.

The Government are not insisting on saving money. Its an excuse and they have shamelessly allowed the railway order to lapse over 120 million. They will probably spend another 40 million redesigning DU to a rediculously stupid level. So the state saves a short term 80 million, farts around for years and construction costs rise and nothing is saved in the end, if it ever happens.

And this "phased" idea is yours and yours alone. Its about as useful to the debate as a fart in the wind. The decision to move the tunnel portal to Inchicore was made on the basis of sound engineering advice and virtually no effect on existing train services. Any deviation from this should not be tolerated. As for leaving out stops on the current proposed route, thats a rediculous idea as building them later would cost more and bring further unnecessary disruption.

Just think M50.

Markcheese

murphaph wrote:

In Rome they just plow through the stuff and the justification given is that if the metro had never been built the artefacts would never have been found either. There is a strange logic to the argument.

They don't just plow through, they excavate and record ... doesnt stop them building right in the heart of rome though.. (they currently have a lot of the pallatine hill ruins scaffolded and propped, as they dig a metro line at the foot of the hill )
To be fair if they're tunneling deep enough under christchurch there shouldnt be anything to find.. of course the access and box'd be a different story.

D.L.R.

Grandeeod wrote: »

The Government are not insisting on saving money. Its an excuse and they have shamelessly allowed the railway order to lapse over 120 million. They will probably spend another 40 million redesigning DU to a rediculously stupid level. So the state saves a short term 80 million, farts around for years and construction costs rise and nothing is saved in the end, if it ever happens.

And this "phased" idea is yours and yours alone. Its about as useful to the debate as a fart in the wind. The decision to move the tunnel portal to Inchicore was made on the basis of sound engineering advice and virtually no effect on existing train services. Any deviation from this should not be tolerated. As for leaving out stops on the current proposed route, thats a rediculous idea as building them later would cost more and bring further unnecessary disruption.

Just think M50.

Look I'm as pissed at the govt for mothballing this as you are but here we are. This review is actually happening whether we like it or not, so there's no harm talking about what could happen. Less of the hostility please.

Grandeeod

D.L.R. wrote: »

Look I'm as pissed at the govt for mothballing this as you are but here we are. This review is actually happening whether we like it or not, so there's no harm talking about what could happen. Less of the hostility please.

There's no hostility here at all. The "here we are" attitude, while its discussed ad nauseum on boards is very defeatist though. If you take the time to actually read this entire thread you could perhaps see the circles we are going around in. Over six bloody years and thats only this thread.

Bray Head

(Councillor) Ciar n Cuffe of the Green Party had a piece in the Journal yesterday on public transport priorities.

He advocates all sorts of things and opposes very little. So I judge it on the relative priority he gives to things.

Metro North gets a nod and DU is not mentioned at all.

Dublin s Metro North project was shovel-ready five years ago. Now could be the time to bite the bullet and start digging.

And the biggest issue for public transport in Ireland right now is....................more fuel-efficient buses!

Tackling climate change should be a top priority. Electrifying commuter rail lines isn t the sexiest of subjects, but it can reduce our carbon footprint and improve air quality.Currently, 22% of Ireland s electricity comes from renewable energy and as this rises towards 40% by 2020 we should use electricity to fuel our journeys. Electric and hybrid vehicle sales are growing, and we should follow the lead of London and invest in a stock of hybrid buses to provide cleaner quieter travel in our cities.

I sometimes (depressingly) think that what underground rail needs is an expensive and long-running PR campaign because virtually no one makes a positive case for it in the public domain anymore.

cgcsb

Bray Head wrote: »

(Councillor) Ciar n Cuffe of the Green Party had a piece in the Journal yesterday on public transport priorities.

He advocates all sorts of things and opposes very little. So I judge it on the relative priority he gives to things.

Metro North gets a nod and DU is not mentioned at all.



And the biggest issue for public transport in Ireland right now is....................more fuel-efficient buses!



I sometimes (depressingly) think that what underground rail needs is an expensive and long-running PR campaign because virtually no one makes a positive case for it in the public domain anymore.

The green party is an utter joke when it comes to actually protecting the environment. They routinely vote against high density residential development that they feel 'isn't right for the area'. Even if this means more urban sprawl.

It's no surprise that they would ignore a project like DARTu, which would slash the number of car journeys and pay lip service to hybrid buses

Grandeeod

Ciaran Cuffe hasn't a clue about Public Transport and I have absolutely no problem in exposing him again and again.

In the mid 2000s he was featured on an email campaign called Extend the DART as part of the promotion of DART Underground. All politicians in areas served by DART received an email once you signed an online petition. Our Ciaran who represented Dun Laoghaire in Dublin calls the campaign organisers and asks to be taken off the email list because his constituency isn't affected by DU!:eek:

This is the level of PT intellect. A few years later and he's salivating about the WRC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcbiWSo-Kg

He's now a councillor for Dublin North Inner City. More DART territory and not a whisper from him

murphaph

It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

LXFlyer

To be fair to Cuffe, in the short to medium term he is absolutely right. There is absolutely a need for more buses - the existing fleet needs expanding more rapidly than is happening to meet demand on existing routes, and also to develop a network of new orbital routes.

In the medium to long term we need both DU and MN.

Idbatterim

To be fair to Cuffe, in the short to medium term he is absolutely right. There is absolutely a need for more buses - the existing fleet needs expanding more rapidly than is happening to meet demand on existing routes, and also to develop a network of new orbital routes.

In the medium to long term we need both DU and MN.

I disagree, you think we didn't need DU and MN years ago?!!!! I cant wait for the city to effectively shut down again this autumn / winter...

I had a meeting today and drove into town, it was on the north quays. There was no practical way that didnt involve a joke amount of time coming from ballinteer, to get there other than car. When the day comes, that it makes sense for me to ditch the car for such trips, I might. Anyone who thinks buses are a replacement for segregated, far more comfortable rail is delusional in my opinion...

had luas crosscity been operational, I might have taken that...

LXFlyer

Idbatterim wrote: »

I disagree, you think we didn't need DU and MN years ago?!!!! I cant wait for the city to effectively shut down again this autumn / winter...

I had a meeting today and drove into town, it was on the north quays. There was no practical way that didnt involve a joke amount of time coming from ballinteer, to get there other than car. When the day comes, that it makes sense for me to ditch the car for such trips, I might. Anyone who thinks buses are a replacement for segregated, far more comfortable rail is delusional in my opinion...

had luas crosscity been operational, I might have taken that...

Ballinteer to the North Quays can be comfortably done in 30-35 minutes - through using the LUAS P & R at Balally and LUAS, and either walking or taking an 83 from Camden St. Using LEAP you'll get a discount on the bus fare too.

Of course we need DU and MN but neither is physically going to be built in the immediate short term. Even if DU or MN were approved by government tomorrow, neither will be physically on the ground until the medium term.

Hence my comment about the need for buses in the short term. Or do you believe that we shouldn't invest in buses in the meantime? People are being left behind at stops all across the network every morning.

With respect you can post here till you're blue in the face and rant on and on about this - but it isn't going to change anything.

I'm as frustrated about this as anyone but getting as upset about it as you clearly are is not going to solve the problem.

Unfortunately we don't do long term investment in this country - general election results should tell you that much.

Chuchote

Imagine being able to take a subway from Dame Street to Terenure or East Wall Business Park or Blanchardstown, with stops inside and outside the canals – the joy!

BonnieSituation

Chuchote wrote: »

Imagine being able to take a subway from Dame Street to Terenure or East Wall Business Park or Blanchardstown, with stops inside and outside the canals – the joy!

But sure how does that make life better for that farmer up the hill in Scarriff?

All he wants is his pipe and his pint and ye feckers up in Dublin are going on about trains and tunnels and the like. Ye get too much as it is.

Sam Russell

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But sure how does that make life better for that farmer up the hill in Scarriff?

All he wants is his pipe and his pint and ye feckers up in Dublin are going on about trains and tunnels and the like. Ye get too much as it is.

Didn't he get a motorway all the way from Gort to Tuam - wasn't that enough for him? It will cut his journey time in half.

MJohnston

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But sure how does that make life better for that farmer up the hill in Scarriff?

All he wants is his pipe and his pint and ye feckers up in Dublin are going on about trains and tunnels and the like. Ye get too much as it is.

Because those fancy Dublin skyscrapers will bring in more subsidy money for him!

BonnieSituation

Sam Russell wrote: »

Didn't he get a motorway all the way from Gort to Tuam - wasn't that enough for him? It will cut his journey time in half.

He'd actually still be better off on the old Gort road than driving to Crusheen and up. :P

MJohnston wrote: »

Because those fancy Dublin skyscrapers will bring in more subsidy money for him!

Ah sure farming is the bread and butter of the nation

---

A country that consistently votes for mediocrity gets mediocrity.

Grandeeod

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect you can post here till you're blue in the face and rant on and on about this - but it isn't going to change anything.

I'm as frustrated about this as anyone but getting as upset about it as you clearly are is not going to solve the problem.

Unfortunately we don't do long term investment in this country - general election results should tell you that much.

I take your point about buses and I don't believe anyone is suggesting that we don't invest further in them. However Idbatterim's posts are very passionate and I'd sooner see that here than an acceptance that we can talk about redesigning rail projects over and over again. I'm sure you appreciate that.

While it may be perceived as a waste of time, its important to record what is going on. I'm certain there are posters here who do not remember the origins of DU and the Governments lack of interest in it in the early stages. This is the second time it has been postponed and more alarmingly on this ocassion, its being redesigned to apparently save money. Anyone interested in the project is right to be outraged by it.

LXFlyer

Grandeeod wrote: »

I take your point about buses and I don't believe anyone is suggesting that we don't invest further in them. However Idbatterim's posts are very passionate and I'd sooner see that here than an acceptance that we can talk about redesigning rail projects over and over again. I'm sure you appreciate that.

While it may be perceived as a waste of time, its important to record what is going on. I'm certain there are posters here who do not remember the origins of DU and the Governments lack of interest in it in the early stages. This is the second time it has been postponed and more alarmingly on this ocassion, its being redesigned to apparently save money. Anyone interested in the project is right to be outraged by it.

I'm not sure he did grasp the immediate short term need for extra buses - hence my reply. His suggestion that public transport couldn't be used for his trip was stretching things a bit - it's a trip I do most days using public transport and I happen to cope. But that's a different issue.

I was quite clear in outlining short, medium and long term requirements a

As I said - I'm as frustrated about this as anyone else - but repeated rants/emails etc only gets you ultimately viewed as a crank and you will get ignored. I'm afraid I've already got to the point of ignoring most of that posters posts as it just reads as someone shouting about the issue.

There are ways of approaching this - but I'm not sure getting all hot under the collar is necessarily the best way, given the short termism that the majority of our electorate have in their approach which then filters down to our politicians.

Idbatterim

This is the second time it has been postponed and more alarmingly on this ocassion, its being redesigned to apparently save money. Anyone interested in the project is right to be outraged by it.

the fact that politicians see this as simply solving a transport problem, tells you all you need to know. The housing situation could be massively helped by MN and DU... Also as far as the project cost goes, spare me!

Construction inflation alone, never mind every other extra cost, from planning to Dublin's gridlock to companies looking to locate here and deciding against it, based on appalling infrastructure and housing costs will dwarf their pathetic "savings" for inferior projects...

Anyone care to debate that point? Or is it only these politicians who lie, making out there will be a saving and in fact they are all doing us a favour?

His suggestion that public transport couldn't be used for his trip was stretching things a bit - it's a trip I do most days using public transport and I happen to cope. But that's a different issue.

everyone values their time differently. I looked at the options on the google trip planner a minute ago, not a chance, I'd have gone with either other option... Thats off topic though, I was simply pointing out that people will leave their car at home if it makes sense to do so...

As I said - I'm as frustrated about this as anyone else - but repeated rants/emails etc only gets you ultimately viewed as a crank and you will get ignored. I'm afraid I've already got to the point of ignoring most of that posters posts as it just reads as someone shouting about the issue.

Maybe, but the more all of this is examined and debated, the more ludicrous that decision to scrap DU and MN become, day by day I am actually finding it harder to comprehend. Here is why though, I am basing it on logic, simply weighing up its benefits. The politicians are using their own logic, what best suits them and their agenda, i.e. typically vote buying! you then get our "educated" electorate voting for shorttermism and going round in circles about the state of everything in this country!

Grandeeod

lxflyer wrote: »

As I said - I'm as frustrated about this as anyone else - but repeated rants/emails etc only gets you ultimately viewed as a crank and you will get ignored. I'm afraid I've already got to the point of ignoring most of that posters posts as it just reads as someone shouting about the issue.

There are ways of approaching this - but I'm not sure getting all hot under the collar is necessarily the best way, given the short termism that the majority of our electorate have in their approach which then filters down to our politicians.

What's wrong with shouting about the issue? It needs to be shouted about rather than accepted. There needs to be a consistant approach that continuously records and exposes the political interference. The NTA and TII are virtually useless in this scenario. The NTA was created to address this lunacy, yet all it took was a politician to say, can't afford it, go back to the drawing board and now the NTA are dancing to another tune.

I'd hope that Idbatterim can transfer his anger into an organised and sustained campaign. If he has to rant here before that, then so be it. However I would not agree that he could be considered a crank for doing so. That particular point was made many years ago about a rail lobby, but at the time they were listened to.

LXFlyer

Grandeeod wrote: »

What's wrong with shouting about the issue? It needs to be shouted about rather than accepted. There needs to be a consistant approach that continuously records and exposes the political interference. The NTA and TII are virtually useless in this scenario. The NTA was created to address this lunacy, yet all it took was a politician to say, can't afford it, go back to the drawing board and now the NTA are dancing to another tune.

I'd hope that Idbatterim can transfer his anger into an organised and sustained campaign. If he has to rant here before that, then so be it. However I would not agree that he could be considered a crank for doing so. That particular point was made many years ago about a rail lobby, but at the time they were listened to.

I don't accept it either - but there are more subtle ways of approaching this that would probably be more successful than this bull in a china shop approach.

Frankly most people here already know the score and don't need to constantly have their eyes and ears battered by post after post of rants about it. Let's be honest shouting and roaring about anything tends not always to work. He is preaching to the already converted here.

I've just got tired of reading it frankly.

Just my own personal opinion - but each to their own.

LXFlyer

Idbatterim wrote: »

everyone values their time differently. I looked at the options on the google trip planner a minute ago, not a chance, I'd have gone with either other option... Thats off topic though, I was simply pointing out that people will leave their car at home if it makes sense to do so...

Sorry to labour this - but I don't see how you could do Ballinteer to the North Quays much faster than 35-40 minutes in a car, including finding parking?

That's how long it would take using public transport and walking.

Bus from Ballinteer to Dundrum - 8-10 mins
LUAS to SSG - 15 minutes
SSG to Four Courts 15 minutes walking

Saying that you'd only do it using public transport if LUAS Cross-city was there is frankly daft - how much time would you save? 5 minutes maximum

It does suggest that you're basing your opinion on either bad experiences using buses, given you seem averse to investing in more of them in the short term, or that you wouldn't be prepared to walk say 15 minutes. That attitude (and I'm speaking about the general population here) really is also part of the problem.

I use public transport from Ballinteer every single day and there is no way I would ever countenance driving into the city centre - it's a no brainer to use public transport.

D.L.R.

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't accept it either - but there are more subtle ways of approaching this that would probably be more successful than this bull in a china shop approach.

Frankly most people here already know the score and don't need to constantly have their eyes and ears battered by post after post of rants about it. Let's be honest shouting and roaring about anything tends not always to work. He is preaching to the already converted here.

I've just got tired of reading it frankly.

Just my own personal opinion - but each to their own.

+1

We've all had a chance to flog that horse to a dead and bloody pulp. DU and MN are back in the design stage. Its time to swallow the bitter pill and move on - next stop is the redesigns for MN and DU due in the next 18 months.

Personally I'd like to find out how much crossover there is in the DU & MN design teams. One of the biggest hurdles to underground rail is the turf war between Irish Rail and RPA/TII, and which project deserves funding more. That's a huge part of this in political terms.

If we were only building one underground line I feel we'd be at construction by now, or close to it.

salmocab

lxflyer wrote: »

Sorry to labour this - but I don't see how you could do Ballinteer to the North Quays much faster than 35-40 minutes in a car, including finding parking?

That's how long it would take using public transport and walking.

Bus from Ballinteer to Dundrum - 8-10 mins
LUAS to SSG - 15 minutes
SSG to Four Courts 15 minutes walking

To be fair it could also include a 6/7 minute walk to the bus stop arriving a couple of minutes before a due bus and maybe waiting another 5 minutes for a Luas.