DART+ (DART Expansion)

lucernarian

McAlban wrote: »

You mean the all weather pitches in Fairview Park that are used almost every day? or the reclaimed grass area between Clontarf Road and and the seafront?

Because I can tell you, the residents of Clontarf Road or Fairview are never going to let DCC change the zoning on this. Even when flood defences were planned for the area they objected on the grounds the loss of view would devalue their properties...

I meant neither, the land surrounding Clasach and the majority of the land either side of Alfie Byrne Road. An all-weather pitch doesn't reflect the nature of the other almost derilict land. At least the wannabe Motocross racers have an ignored park to race around...

bk

plodder wrote: »

I work in East point and took the DART yesterday. It took me 15-ish minutes to walk from the office to Clontarf rd. stn. I was surprised the courtesy bus left its stop at the same time but arrived after me. It can be slow, but I wouldn't have expected it to be that slow this time of year.

The issue is the bridge exiting the park, it acts as a bottleneck with terrible traffic leaving the business park at peak times.

They need to widen the bridge and add dedicated bus lane. Ideally also add a bus lane on Alfie Byrne road and a two way lane in the DART station. Would greatly increase the speed of the bus service.

Having said that it isn't really a long walk.

lucernarian wrote: »

I meant neither, the land surrounding Clasach and the majority of the land either side of Alfie Byrne Road. An all-weather pitch doesn't reflect the nature of the other almost derilict land. At least the wannabe Motocross racers have an ignored park to race around...

All zoned in such away that can't be built on. I agree though that these lands could be better used and they are being gradually developed for better uses, the all weather pitches, Clasach, etc.

Actually what surprises me is that most of the building in East Point are just three storey tall. The park would be an ideal location for true high level office building development, then extend the Luas line to it.

McAlban

bk wrote: »

All zoned in such away that can't be built on. I agree though that these lands could be better used and they are being gradually developed for better uses, the all weather pitches, Clasach, etc.

Zoning can be changed, but it's highly controversial to change it to commercial / industrial / residential; rather than high amenity / open space.

bk wrote:

Actually what surprises me is that most of the building in East Point are just three storey tall. The park would be an ideal location for true high level office building development, then extend the Luas line to it.

I would say this is probably due to the nature of the land, east point is all relatively recently reclaimed land, building to additional height would require non-economic engineering to resolve.

plodder

CatInABox wrote: »

That road can be at a total standstill at times, very frustrating. It's been a while since I've worked in East Point, so I can't remember at all, but does the Bus pick people up from multiple points in the park?

It drops off at a few locations, but I think there is only one departure point.

bk wrote:

The issue is the bridge exiting the park, it acts as a bottleneck with terrible traffic leaving the business park at peak times.

They need to widen the bridge and add dedicated bus lane. Ideally also add a bus lane on Alfie Byrne road and a two way lane in the DART station. Would greatly increase the speed of the bus service.

That would be nice. The problem is I'm sure Dublin city don't want to see all local road capacity taken up with people trying to exit the park unfortunately.

mcalban wrote:

I would say this is probably due to the nature of the land, east point is all relatively recently reclaimed land, building to additional height would require non-economic engineering to resolve.

Yes, I think it's built on an old landfill. There are a few buildings over by the tunnel that are taller, and are on more solid ground as such.

McAlban

plodder wrote:

Yes, I think it's built on an old landfill. There are a few buildings over by the tunnel that are taller, and are on more solid ground as such.

I think that area was deliberately reclaimed by Dublin Port Company.

I must get the book on the history of the Docklands. Basically all of it planned reclamation through landfill or dredging. Also interesting to read Abercrombies Dublin Planning proposals. i.e. to reclaim almost the entire bay and create a linear park along the new Tolka estuary.



He also planned removing the Loopline and having a tunnel under the Liffey with a branch line under Beresford Place towards a central station where River House now stands.

lucernarian

I hear again that the Dart expansion to Balbriggan is on the cards, apparently mentioned in Ireland's climate action plan.

Why the hell are the government persisting with this option? Maynooth is clearly a better alternative, unless the existing dart was extended to Drogheda *perhaps*

LXFlyer

lucernarian wrote: »

I hear again that the Dart expansion to Balbriggan is on the cards, apparently mentioned in Ireland's climate action plan.

Why the hell are the government persisting with this option? Maynooth is clearly a better alternative, unless the existing dart was extended to Drogheda *perhaps*

IE are pushing for Maynooth first.

BonnieSituation

lxflyer wrote: »

IE are pushing for Maynooth first.

Therefore we will get Balbriggan first.

IE =/= Govt

murphaph

Tbh the more I think about it the more sense it makes to run Maynooth-Bray DARTs and Malahide-Connolly DARTs, forcing a change at Connolly for users of the latter line. It's just a simpler way to operate everything and removes lots of conflicts and the 4 platform shed at Connolly is there to accept terminating trains from the northern line and has capacity for this. The Howth Branch could be serviced directly as movements are simplified at Connolly and knock on effects of delays at Howth Junction are minimised as they would not affect Maynooth services at all as they would do presently.. P4 and 5 could be used to terminate Malahide DARTs ensuring closest proximity to P6/7 and the DART station entrance could be opened again finally.

The Rosslare "Intercity" trains should also terminate in Pearse. That's already much closer to the city centre than say Cork or Galway lines services achieve at Heuston! The Outer suburban services to Longford and Gorey should run through to the other end to avoid terminating in the city centre at all.

Sligo Intercity could be sent to Docklands to be honest, still closer to the city centre than Heuston!

We need a re-jig like BusConnects, even if a minority are discommoded because of additional changes.

Sam Russell

murphaph wrote: »

Tbh the more I think about it the more sense it makes to run Maynooth-Bray DARTs and Malahide-Connolly DARTs, forcing a change at Connolly for users of the latter line. It's just a simpler way to operate everything and removes lots of conflicts and the 4 platform shed at Connolly is there to accept terminating trains from the northern line and has capacity for this. The Howth Branch could be serviced directly as movements are simplified at Connolly and knock on effects of delays at Howth Junction are minimised as they would not affect Maynooth services at all as they would do presently.. P4 and 5 could be used to terminate Malahide DARTs ensuring closest proximity to P6/7 and the DART station entrance could be opened again finally.

The Rosslare "Intercity" trains should also terminate in Pearse. That's already much closer to the city centre than say Cork or Galway lines services achieve at Heuston! The Outer suburban services to Longford and Gorey should run through to the other end to avoid terminating in the city centre at all.

Sligo Intercity could be sent to Docklands to be honest, still closer to the city centre than Heuston!

We need a re-jig like BusConnects, even if a minority are discommoded because of additional changes.

There is a proposal for a ten minute Dart service. Are you suggesting a ten minute service for Maynooth- Bray? Surely not. Off-peak, a 20 minute service Bray to Malahide and a 20 min service Bray to Maynooth should be adequate.

Howth - Howth Junction was suggested to be a shuttle service which would make sense if Howth Junction was laid out a bit better to ease transfers for passengers. Perhaps trains could divide at Howth Junction with half going to Malahide, the other half going to Howth.

To me it would make sense for all south bound commuter service through Connolly should terminate at Pearse or GCD and not continue through to Bray. The current Dart service is delayed by the diesels, and the diesels are delayed by the Dart. The current arrangements of the lines and signals do not suit both services. The Wexford trains should terminate at Bray with the service continue with 'fast' Darts that stop at the same stops as the diesels currently do. The current timetable has no train arriving in Wexford from Dublin before midday. So no business travel so.

I think a broader view would be able to open more capacity across parts of the network without reducing it on critical parts.

jd

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Wexford trains should terminate at Bray with the service continue with 'fast' Darts that stop at the same stops as the diesels currently do. The current timetable has no train arriving in Wexford from Dublin before midday. So no business travel so.

First train departs Wexford just before 6am, arrives 8:45 am

LXFlyer

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Therefore we will get Balbriggan first.

IE =/= Govt

Of course they're not - but they can at least put forward the operational rationale for why it makes more sense.

LXFlyer

murphaph wrote: »

Tbh the more I think about it the more sense it makes to run Maynooth-Bray DARTs and Malahide-Connolly DARTs, forcing a change at Connolly for users of the latter line. It's just a simpler way to operate everything and removes lots of conflicts and the 4 platform shed at Connolly is there to accept terminating trains from the northern line and has capacity for this. The Howth Branch could be serviced directly as movements are simplified at Connolly and knock on effects of delays at Howth Junction are minimised as they would not affect Maynooth services at all as they would do presently.. P4 and 5 could be used to terminate Malahide DARTs ensuring closest proximity to P6/7 and the DART station entrance could be opened again finally.

The Rosslare "Intercity" trains should also terminate in Pearse. That's already much closer to the city centre than say Cork or Galway lines services achieve at Heuston! The Outer suburban services to Longford and Gorey should run through to the other end to avoid terminating in the city centre at all.

Sligo Intercity could be sent to Docklands to be honest, still closer to the city centre than Heuston!

We need a re-jig like BusConnects, even if a minority are discommoded because of additional changes.

And how would Rosslare trains get serviced, washed, refuelled, etc if they all terminated at Pearse?

The main servicing happens at Drogheda and some light work is done at Connolly (washing, fuelling, water discharge etc).

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is a proposal for a ten minute Dart service. Are you suggesting a ten minute service for Maynooth- Bray? Surely not. Off-peak, a 20 minute service Bray to Malahide and a 20 min service Bray to Maynooth should be adequate.

Howth - Howth Junction was suggested to be a shuttle service which would make sense if Howth Junction was laid out a bit better to ease transfers for passengers. Perhaps trains could divide at Howth Junction with half going to Malahide, the other half going to Howth.

To me it would make sense for all south bound commuter service through Connolly should terminate at Pearse or GCD and not continue through to Bray. The current Dart service is delayed by the diesels, and the diesels are delayed by the Dart. The current arrangements of the lines and signals do not suit both services. The Wexford trains should terminate at Bray with the service continue with 'fast' Darts that stop at the same stops as the diesels currently do. The current timetable has no train arriving in Wexford from Dublin before midday. So no business travel so.

I think a broader view would be able to open more capacity across parts of the network without reducing it on critical parts.

There are two commuter trains from south of Greystones every morning arriving into Dublin prior to 09:00. Are you seriously suggesting that all of the passengers on those should all have to transfer to DARTs? I think that you'll find that is not realistic given the loadings.

The DART is not delayed by diesels in the current timetable - it's the opposite way around. The diesels fit into the gaps in the DART schedule.

The Rosslare line lost it's competitiveness with road when the M11 opened - it's never going to compete for business traffic - it's future is purely for commuting into Dublin from Gorey northwards and for leisure traffic. The alignment is too slow.

Again - the same question - how would the trains get serviced if they stay south of Bray? That happens at Drogheda and light work is done at Connolly - sets have to alternate through a roster. They have to return to Portlaoise in a rotating cycle as well.

There isn't enough space to allow all the trains terminate at Pearse/GCD during the peaks - that's why some continue south to Bray and then return when things quieten down, and also why one set lies over in Dun Laoghaire.

murphaph

lxflyer wrote: »

And how would Rosslare trains get serviced, washed, refuelled, etc if they all terminated at Pearse?

The main servicing happens at Drogheda and some light work is done at Connolly (washing, fuelling, water discharge etc).

As you say, it's "light work" that needs to be done during the day. This stuff can be done in another location, somewhere along the Rosslare line, or they can add fuelling and waste discharge facilities in Pearse. They aren't washing the trains every day, that's for sure!

I don't see this stuff as a huge challenge. If we can't figure out how to fuel a trainset somewhere other than Connolly, then we should forget DU immediately!

LXFlyer

murphaph wrote: »

As you say, it's "light work" that needs to be done during the day. This stuff can be done in another location, somewhere along the Rosslare line, or they can add fuelling and waste discharge facilities in Pearse. They aren't washing the trains every day, that's for sure!

I don't see this stuff as a huge challenge. If we can't figure out how to fuel a trainset somewhere other than Connolly, then we should forget DU immediately!

Trains get fully serviced in Drogheda and Portlaoise during the day as well as at night. Sets also rotate around the network - it's not a case that they stay on one route all the time.

We are only talking five trains a day here - it's perfectly possible to path them across the loop line without causing massive disruption.

DU would include provision for additional EMU depot facilities - the plan was for one at Maynooth.

Keyzer

Slightly off topic but has it ever been considered to increase the current two tracks from Connolly - Tara - Pearse? I don't know how this could be done although I would suspect another bridge would be required.

Its a massive bottle neck and, if expanded in some way, could pave the way for more frequent journeys and ease the load on the current two track solution.

MJohnston

Keyzer wrote: »

Slightly off topic but has it ever been considered to increase the current two tracks from Connolly - Tara - Pearse? I don't know how this could be done although I would suspect another bridge would be required.

Its a massive bottle neck and, if expanded in some way, could pave the way for more frequent journeys and ease the load on the current two track solution.

Yes, it's called DART Underground! :P

Sam Russell

jd wrote: »

First train departs Wexford just before 6am, arrives 8:45 am

You are going the wrong direction. The first train to Wexford departs Connolly at 9:40 arriving at 12:01 in Wexford. If someone wants to do business in Wexford, it would need to be over lunch.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

And how would Rosslare trains get serviced, washed, refuelled, etc if they all terminated at Pearse?

The main servicing happens at Drogheda and some light work is done at Connolly (washing, fuelling, water discharge etc).

How did they manage when the Malahide bridge collapsed? Could any of the cleaning and fuelling not be done at Bray?

Not all Rosslare - Connolly trains need to be terminated at Bray, just a few. It takes 40 minutes to get from Connolly to Bray, and presumably the same coming back. If just two of the five services did, it could provide a sixth service, using the existing rolling stock. It could allow a service to arrive in Wexford at about 10am.

I have no idea of the loadings of trains between Bray and Rosslare, particularly south of Gorey. Are there any figures for it? How many passengers travel as far as Bray and no further?

There is no significant travelling time difference for diesels and Darts between Pearse and Bray, so what is the point if the Darts go to ten minute intervals.

murphaph

lxflyer wrote: »

Trains get fully serviced in Drogheda and Portlaoise during the day as well as at night. Sets also rotate around the network - it's not a case that they stay on one route all the time.

We are only talking five trains a day here - it's perfectly possible to path them across the loop line without causing massive disruption.

It should also be possible to path Maynooth trains across the mainline at Connolly but IE can't manage to do it without trains sitting there for 10 minutes sometimes. Let's face it, IE are poor at this stuff, so simplifying the network and removing conflicts seems like a good option to me.

Train sets do not need to go back to Drogheda or Portlaoise all that often. They can be pathed through as "DART" services when that is required. Does not have to be every train that gets pathed through, but if it is genuinely possible for IE to manage this without delays then fine by me to be honest.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

How did they manage when the Malahide bridge collapsed? Could any of the cleaning and fuelling not be done at Bray?

Not all Rosslare - Connolly trains need to be terminated at Bray, just a few. It takes 40 minutes to get from Connolly to Bray, and presumably the same coming back. If just two of the five services did, it could provide a sixth service, using the existing rolling stock. It could allow a service to arrive in Wexford at about 10am.

I have no idea of the loadings of trains between Bray and Rosslare, particularly south of Gorey. Are there any figures for it? How many passengers travel as far as Bray and no further?

There is no significant travelling time difference for diesels and Darts between Pearse and Bray, so what is the point if the Darts go to ten minute intervals.

When the bridge collapsed there was still a valeting plant at Connolly. That's not there anymore these days.

As for operating a train to Wexford to arrive for 10:00, there are no spare sets lying around Connolly to do a southbound service at 07:00/07:30, and even if there were it would be far more beneficial to operate a commuter service around Dublin with it - that's the problem.

The two northbound trains from south of Bray then do other services -

The set that operates the 05:55 from Gorey to Connolly, then operates the 08:00 service to Sligo.

The set off the 05:35 from Rosslare continues to Dundalk and operates an additional commuter service back to Connolly.

It's nowhere near as simple to schedule the services as some people seem to think.

As I posted already the opening of the rest of the M11 has killed off the railway as a business route, and I think people need to realise that. It is very much still a commuter route to/from Dublin, but outside of that it really only has the leisure market.

While I think you might have a case for curtailing some of the off-peak trains to south of Bray, you still need the peak services to travel through to the city due to the loadings. What benefit you might get is hard to say without doing out full potential schedules.

LXFlyer

murphaph wrote: »

It should also be possible to path Maynooth trains across the mainline at Connolly but IE can't manage to do it without trains sitting there for 10 minutes sometimes. Let's face it, IE are poor at this stuff, so simplifying the network and removing conflicts seems like a good option to me.

Train sets do not need to go back to Drogheda or Portlaoise all that often. They can be pathed through as "DART" services when that is required. Does not have to be every train that gets pathed through, but if it is genuinely possible for IE to manage this without delays then fine by me to be honest.

There needs to be a full timetable recast on the Connolly side reflecting the actual DART running times (which is what the original proposed 10 minute DART timetable did), and slots in the other services around that and takes full advantage of the re-signalling.

That has not happened yet so we are putting the cart before the horse here.

Personally I'd prefer to see a 15 minute DART service maintained until infrastructural improvements are made that minimise the impact that the 10 minute service has on other services (additional passing facilities north of Connolly being the main ones).

But it is fair to say that the platform changes that they made in Connolly during the evening peak have improved the running of the service.

Incidentally, trains have to go back to Drogheda/Portlaoise every 48 hours for an exam.

jd

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are going the wrong direction. The first train to Wexford departs Connolly at 9:40 arriving at 12:01 in Wexford. If someone wants to do business in Wexford, it would need to be over lunch.

Ah ok- more coffee was needed!

murphaph

Anything I say is dependent on a Maynooth DART existing. I'm not advocating we start terminating northern line DARTs in Connolly shed now. I do believe that the way IE tries to please everybody is a failure and we need to see a simplification of the network. I would imagine if Maynooth is electrified we'd need a maintenance facility built for that, even without DU.

lucernarian

murphaph wrote: »

Anything I say is dependent on a Maynooth DART existing. I'm not advocating we start terminating northern line DARTs in Connolly shed now. I do believe that the way IE tries to please everybody is a failure and we need to see a simplification of the network. I would imagine if Maynooth is electrified we'd need a maintenance facility built for that, even without DU.

Something similar would be needed for Balbriggan electrification, as the idea is stupid enough to only go some of the way to Drogheda. Fewer new trains required for Balbriggan but that's probably the only advantage of that hairbrained idea.

roddney

lucernarian wrote: »

I hear again that the Dart expansion to Balbriggan is on the cards, apparently mentioned in Ireland's climate action plan.

Why the hell are the government persisting with this option? Maynooth is clearly a better alternative, unless the existing dart was extended to Drogheda *perhaps*

Same reason why we have Luas.  It's cheap and easy for them to get their head around.  Completely unambitious !!!  Adds no more passenger numbers than a Diesel.  Will actually likely be slower from Balbriggan, than current service if it works like a DART and stops at every stop.   Really needs 3 or 4 tracking with express routing to make sense.

McAlban

roddney wrote: »

Same reason why we have Luas.  It's cheap and easy for them to get their head around.  Completely unambitious !!!  Adds no more passenger numbers than a Diesel.  Will actually likely be slower from Balbriggan, than current service if it works like a DART and stops at every stop.   Really needs 3 or 4 tracking with express routing to make sense.

I don't see an issue with Balbriggan, Although they should do it on a station by Station basis... 4km to Donabate, another 4km to Rush & Lusk. 6.5km to Skerries and 6km more to Balbriggan.

All of those towns (Especially Balbriggan and Lusk) have seen huge expansion over the last 10 years, and there is far more planned for Donabate, Skerries and Balbriggan.

But I agree "Northern Route" project like KRP should be considered. there is space on the northern line for four tracking, but there are pinch points.

Compare this scale of this project with the engineering challenges on the Maynooth Line!

murphaph

McAlban wrote: »

I don't see an issue with Balbriggan, Although they should do it on a station by Station basis... 4km to Donabate, another 4km to Rush & Lusk. 6.5km to Skerries and 6km more to Balbriggan.

All of those towns (Especially Balbriggan and Lusk) have seen huge expansion over the last 10 years, and there is far more planned for Donabate, Skerries and Balbriggan.

But I agree "Northern Route" project like KRP should be considered. there is space on the northern line for four tracking, but there are pinch points.

Compare this scale of this project with the engineering challenges on the Maynooth Line!

It also makes sense (in the context of DU) to quad track out the northern line to "match" the KRP. The Maynooth (Sligo) and Bray (Rosslare) lines are also a natural match for each other (difficult/impossible to widen and similar low frequency intercity routes).

The KR and NL offer the most opportunities to open up vast swathes of development land. The Bray route is essentially full, hemmed in by sea and mountains and already built up along its whole length. The Maynooth line offers some good development opportunities in fairness but the northern and KR could handle massive through capacity).

D.L.R.

Its clear no Irish govt has a clue how to improve Dublin as an urban region in any meaningful sense.

All farty little projects like Balbriggan extension and Luas cross city which do nothing for the city's core problem of undercapacity in the CBD. And now, talk of building a "new city".. more proof of this evasive instinct. Irish govts still obsessing over the ridiculous notion of "deflecting" growth from a small city like Dublin and our other cities which are basically just large towns, rather than embracing the reality of urbanisation.

Its hugely worrying that our own leaders can't or won't accept the reality of global urbanisation and its role in a nation's economic stability.

My advice to anyone who wants good public transport is to dedicate your life to moving near the existing Dart or tram and save yourself a lifetime of misery and false promises. These overpaid clowns aren't going to fix it for you.