DART+ (DART Expansion)

Idbatterim

honestly, I cant work out whether they are just pure morons, or whether the height restrictions and lack of funding for the projects dublin needs are a power play between dublin and "the country"... Build MN and DU and dublin and the dublin region will exponentially grow, the dominance will be far more pronounced than even now...

what those idiots dont understand is that, ultimately this benefits the entire country. Dublin being massively hamstrung does nobody any favours. Many of the companies looking at locating here are not thinking, its dublin cork or frankfurt, brussels etc. Its Dublin OR not ireland...

markpb

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is a proposal for a ten minute Dart service. Are you suggesting a ten minute service for Maynooth- Bray? Surely not. Off-peak, a 20 minute service Bray to Malahide and a 20 min service Bray to Maynooth should be adequate.

3tph at off-peak times might be fine for the outer suburban areas like Maynooth and Bray but it penalises people living closer to Dublin on the same line. Somneone in Sandyford has between 6-10tph off-peak but someone living in Castleknock will only get 3tph under your proposal. Why the disparity?

D.L.R.

Idbatterim wrote: »

honestly, I cant work out whether they are just pure morons, or whether the height restrictions and lack of funding for the projects dublin needs are a power play between dublin and "the country"... Build MN and DU and dublin and the dublin region will exponentially grow, the dominance will be far more pronounced than even now...

what those idiots dont understand is that, ultimately this benefits the entire country. Dublin being massively hamstrung does nobody any favours. Many of the companies looking at locating here are not thinking, its dublin cork or frankfurt, brussels etc. Its Dublin OR not ireland...

Its the parish pump. We want our own cancer unit for Ballytwofart. We want a motorway exit for Castlearsebog.

Politicians ultimately just care about getting reelected and cashing in. If that means letting the country burn, so what. They still get paid right. And when it all goes tits up sure just blame the EU/Lehman Bros/the Brits/etc.

Sam Russell

markpb wrote: »

3tph at off-peak times might be fine for the outer suburban areas like Maynooth and Bray but it penalises people living closer to Dublin on the same line. Somneone in Sandyford has between 6-10tph off-peak but someone living in Castleknock will only get 3tph under your proposal. Why the disparity?

They could add a service Maynooth to Docklands, or Maynooth to Connolly to fill gaps if there is a demand. The 20 min service would be better than currently offered.

Currently, off-peak, they run a 15 min 8 coach service on the Dart with most trains less than 10% full. I do not understand why this is so, but it is. However, I am not an expert, only an observer.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

Currently, off-peak, they run a 15 min 8 coach service on the Dart with most trains less than 10% full. I do not understand why this is so, but it is. However, I am not an expert, only an observer.

8 carriage trains are needed at peak times. There is very little cost difference in running a 8 carriage set versus a 2 or 4 carriage off-peak, specially given that they are electrically powered. The cost of having a guy unhook/hook up trains off-peak would probably wipe out any savings in fuel.

The biggest costs at IR are staff, not fuel.

15 minutes is considered the longest you want to wait for a frequent service. The infrastructure costs of building rail are vast, no point in not using it once you have it.

Idbatterim

Its the parish pump. We want our own cancer unit for Ballytwofart. We want a motorway exit for Castlearsebog.

Politicians ultimately just care about getting reelected and cashing in. If that means letting the country burn, so what. They still get paid right. And when it all goes tits up sure just blame the EU/Lehman Bros/the Brits/etc.

100%, its like in wolf of wall street...

"Revolutions. You follow? Revolutions. Keep the clients (electorate) on the Ferris wheel. And it goes. The park is open 24/7, 365, every decade, every goddamn century. That's it. The name of the game."

thomasj

murphaph wrote: »

It also makes sense (in the context of DU) to quad track out the northern line to "match" the KRP. The Maynooth (Sligo) and Bray (Rosslare) lines are also a natural match for each other (difficult/impossible to widen and similar low frequency intercity routes).

The KR and NL offer the most opportunities to open up vast swathes of development land. The Bray route is essentially full, hemmed in by sea and mountains and already built up along its whole length. The Maynooth line offers some good development opportunities in fairness but the northern and KR could handle massive through capacity).

I have to disagree:

- Whatever happens theres still the constraight of the Northern Line. You may have DARTs to Balbriggan and this will probably just be a case of moving Malahide DARTs further a few stops, but there will still be a need for Enterprise, Drogheda/Dundalk commuter and lets be honest probably Howth DART. So capacity is still going to be tight on that line.

-Theres not going to be freeing up of stock for other services as they're still going to be needed for the Commuter services further north.

- Even if there was to be no extra services for Maynooth line, the extra capacity from the additional DART carriages will help give additional badly needed capacity to the line, plus they speed up journey times.

- Theres not a major "engineering issues" for Maynooth as you make it out to be, even the bridges height were prepared/examined well in advance of this

I don't think the argument is as straightforward as you make it out to be.

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

8 carriage trains are needed at peak times. There is very little cost difference in running a 8 carriage set versus a 2 or 4 carriage off-peak, specially given that they are electrically powered. The cost of having a guy unhook/hook up trains off-peak would probably wipe out any savings in fuel.

The biggest costs at IR are staff, not fuel.

15 minutes is considered the longest you want to wait for a frequent service. The infrastructure costs of building rail are vast, no point in not using it once you have it.

Indeed. And many off peak trains, especially in the evenings of weekdays are 4 carriage. But this is a company that runs the 1847 train from Connolly to Maynooth with 4 carriages...

LXFlyer

lucernarian wrote: »

Indeed. And many off peak trains, especially in the evenings of weekdays are 4 carriage. But this is a company that runs the 1847 train from Connolly to Maynooth with 4 carriages...

I'm sure they'd love to make it longer but until the 2700s return there isn't the rolling stock to do it.

lucernarian

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm sure they'd love to make it longer but until the 2700s return there isn't the rolling stock to do it.

The evening running of 4 carriages on weekdays is not really to do with rolling stock after 7.30pm, whatever about the 6.37 one. I still have my doubts considering a 29k operates some rosslare services, but I figure there's an operational reason for that too. Sooner or later, prior decisions taken by Irish Rail have to be taken into account though. The buck stops with them ultimately.

LXFlyer

lucernarian wrote: »

The evening running of 4 carriages on weekdays is not really to do with rolling stock after 7.30pm, whatever about the 6.37 one. I still have my doubts considering a 29k operates some rosslare services, but I figure there's an operational reason for that too. Sooner or later, prior decisions taken by Irish Rail have to be taken into account though. The buck stops with them ultimately.

I was specifically referring to your comment about the 18:30 Pearse-Maynooth (18:37 from Connolly). There isn't any rolling stock to strengthen it with.

It's only after the shoulders around the peak that trains become available and splitting can happen.

Only one return working on the Rosslare route is rostered for a 29k and that's the 05:35 Rosslare-Dundalk and the 16:37 Connolly-Rosslare. Changing that is not to suddenly magic a spare set to operate the 18:30 as an 8 piece. The use of a 29k on that train into Dublin is a better match for the loading on it - more people can fit on it than an ICR.

The bottom line is that the company has not been able to afford to operate all of it's rolling stock due to cutbacks in government spending - that's only being reversed in stages - when the 2700s return it will release the 2800s back to Dublin, which will improve the situation.

lucernarian

lxflyer wrote: »

I was specifically referring to your comment about the 18:30 Pearse-Maynooth (18:37 from Connolly). There isn't any rolling stock to strengthen it with.

It's only after the shoulders around the peak that trains become available and splitting can happen.

Only one return working on the Rosslare route is rostered for a 29k and that's the 05:35 Rosslare-Dundalk and the 16:37 Connolly-Rosslare. Changing that is not to suddenly magic a spare set to operate the 18:30 as an 8 piece. The use of a 29k on that train into Dublin is a better match for the loading on it - more people can fit on it than an ICR.

The bottom line is that the company has not been able to afford to operate all of it's rolling stock due to cutbacks in government spending - that's only being reversed in stages - when the 2700s return it will release the 2800s back to Dublin, which will improve the situation.

I've heard all of this before. I'll still have my doubts.

I again note you didn't refer to the rolling stock issue on the later departures.

Rail transport is terribly neglected in this country but I'm getting sick of CIE excuses and sympathies and I'm seeing Irish Rail more as a part of the problem. There is plenty of rolling stock to serve Maynooth after 2040 on a Sunday evening. And indeed with 8 carriages on every day of the week.

LXFlyer

lucernarian wrote: »

I've heard all of this before. I'll still have my doubts.

I again note you didn't refer to the rolling stock issue on the later departures.

Rail transport is terribly neglected in this country but I'm getting sick of CIE excuses and sympathies and I'm seeing Irish Rail more as a part of the problem. There is plenty of rolling stock to serve Maynooth after 2040 on a Sunday evening. And indeed with 8 carriages on every day of the week.

Fine. Believe whatever you want, but again until the 2700s return there aren't going be any significant improvements in peak capacity as the rolling stock isn't available.

The Sunday schedule is an altogether different issue and that needs a complete overhaul with a complete recast and of course there should be later trains.

I didn't think you were complaining about the later trains on weekdays - are 8 piece trains really needed for all of them?

I'd so have you raised it as an issue?

lucernarian

Yes, a while back. I didn't get a reply though. Normally they do reply also.

cgcsb

The whole 'let's build a new city' thing is quite worrying, especially when such brainfarts emanate from supposedly learned people. In other small countries they get that they have one city of significance. You don't see Danish, Icelanders, Luxembourgers, or even Dutch/Belgians banging on about 'balanced regional development' or building new cities/airports etc. Having one city of significance brings in the bacon, that's the bottom line. I think the problem in Ireland is we were a set of divided tribes before colonisation and have yet to form a coherent national identity that accepts the capital as the centre of our culture.

The 'build-a-new-city' brainfart is especially worrying in a climate where our existing city can't even get funding for an expansion of Dublin bikes, never mind serious rail infrastructure. In that climate, how would you expect the same government to provide infrastructure to the 'new city'. With our ability to speak perfect English comes brain-drain which needs to stop, if we didn't have such devastating brain drain politicians who issue such brain farts would just be unseated.

Idbatterim

Don't worry your head about it. It's a comedy proposal. Will never happen! Ireland will have its own space programme before this would ever happen

marno21

Idbatterim wrote: »

Don't worry your head about it. It's a comedy proposal. Will never happen! Ireland will have its own space programme before this would ever happen

Will hopefully be put in the same bin as the "Offaly International Airport" proposals.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

Will hopefully be put in the same bin as the "Offaly International Airport" proposals.

They tried to resurrect that one earlier this year, but heard nothing since, so I expect that it has sunk without trace again.

D.L.R.

Anyone remember the City of the Sacred Heart? *sick bag*

And why the hell are these new city proposals always in bumf*ck boonie Ireland?

Why not promote Drogheda or Dundalk to city status, or combine the North Kildare conurbation. Kilkenny. Waterford.

Much more attractive than another Shannon town experiment in the fearful no mans land of the midlands or in the sideways rain of Donegal.

D.L.R.

Meanwhile in Dublin

murphaph

Crazy really. We have the entire population of Ireland in the Berlin metropolitan area, roughly the size of county Dublin and don't have traffic jams like in Dublin.

D.L.R.

murphaph wrote: »

Crazy really. We have the entire population of Ireland in the Berlin metropolitan area, roughly the size of county Dublin and don't have traffic jams like in Dublin.

Germans come to Ireland to experience the thrill of a badly run country. Its like river rafting or bungee jumping for them.

MJohnston

D.L.R. wrote: »

Germans come to Ireland to experience the thrill of a badly run country. Its like river rafting or bungee jumping for them.

Nah, badly run infrastructure. My German missus tells me all about how badly run plenty of other aspects of German society are.

D.L.R.

MJohnston wrote: »

Nah, badly run infrastructure. My German missus tells me all about how badly run plenty of other aspects of German society are.

Interesting. Which aspects?

Donegal Storm

Pretty much everyone worldwide thinks their country is badly run, it's hardly unique to Ireland. In the grand scheme we're doing very well for ourselves, plenty to criticise of course but from reading this place sometimes you'd swear we were some basketcase third world country and not one of the most successful on the planet

Bray Head

cgcsb wrote: »

In other small countries they get that they have one city of significance. You don't see Danish, Icelanders, Luxembourgers, or even Dutch/Belgians banging on about 'balanced regional development' or building new cities/airports etc.

Actually, infrastructure development in Belgium is incredibly focussed on regional issues! Flanders and Wallonia are (respectively) obsessed with ensuring that they get as much federal spending as each other. The result is that very little gets spent on either!

The traffic on the outskirts of Brussels is horrendous - although inside the city people get around reasonably freely due to a big rail tunnel (1930s) and a Metro system (1970s).

murphaph

I wouldn't say nothing gets built because of the 50:50 rule in Belgium. In fact the opposite is true.

The classic example is the Charleroi metro...built because money "had" to be spent on infrastructure in Wallonia and then left to rot because the regional government couldn't afford the running costs for a system that never carried enough passengers to make it viable.

It does highlight how "balanced regional development" can lead to white elephants like barely used rail lines running through low density countryside....we know all about that ourselves.

monument

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Pretty much everyone worldwide thinks their country is badly run, it's hardly unique to Ireland. In the grand scheme we're doing very well for ourselves, plenty to criticise of course but from reading this place sometimes you'd swear we were some basketcase third world country and not one of the most successful on the planet

For a Western European country we are not doing well on infrastructure investment and that's not just a view -- it's a fact.

CatInABox

Bray Head wrote: »

The traffic on the outskirts of Brussels is horrendous - although inside the city people get around reasonably freely due to a big rail tunnel (1930s) and a Metro system (1970s).

Funnily enough, I only experienced this on a driving holiday recently. Left Brussels and went on the ring road around the city, and spent about 3 hours on it. Madness. Of course, the fact that it was a bank holiday Friday and Trump was in town meant things were much worse than usual, but still....

It was baking hot too, 35 degrees. I thought I was going to die, or that my wife was going to kill me.

D.L.R.

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Pretty much everyone worldwide thinks their country is badly run, it's hardly unique to Ireland. In the grand scheme we're doing very well for ourselves, plenty to criticise of course but from reading this place sometimes you'd swear we were some basketcase third world country and not one of the most successful on the planet

No. This broad brush analysis completely ignores the areas Ireland is doing very poorly for a rich Western European nation. We're bottom of the table in terms of infrastructure. We invest less than any other Western European nation. You have to head deep into Eastern Europe to find a country with as primitive a system as ours.

Its like a weeping wound just leaking GDP, like a dripping pipe in the water table. Its just bad economics.

I wouldn't go so far as to call our infrastructure third world, but it certainly isn't first world.