DART+ (DART Expansion)

MrMorooka · 21-09-2017 3:59pm

We desperately need to build something. I landed in Dublin airport yesterday, and it took 56 minutes to get from there to the end of the 757 route off Camden St. Admittedly that was at rush hour(got on the bus about half 4), but really, the city is completely grinding to a halt.

Dublin Airport is a really great airport, it has a huge number of passengers, and it is extremely close to the city, but the transport links are actually atrocious. It's just not what you expect, and it makes the city look worse than it is.

LXFlyer · 21-09-2017 5:35pm

MrMorooka wrote: »

We desperately need to build something. I landed in Dublin airport yesterday, and it took 56 minutes* to get from there to the end of the 757 route off Camden St. Admittedly that was at rush hour(got on the bus about half 4), but really, the city is completely grinding to a halt.

Dublin Airport is a really great airport, it has a huge number of passengers, and it is extremely close to the city, but the transport links are actually atrocious. It's just not what you expect, and it makes the city look worse than it is.

*Hilariously Dublin Bus advertises the journey as 30 minutes when you get on. :rolleyes:

They say 30 minutes to the city centre, not the entire trip - what time did it get to Eden Quay once it left T2 - I suspect that it wasn't far off 30 minutes?

The main issue is getting through the city centre itself.

The running time allowed is 60 minutes.

MrMorooka · 21-09-2017 7:31pm

Yes, you are quite right- apologies.

lucernarian · 21-09-2017 8:02pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

They say 30 minutes to the city centre, not the entire trip - what time did it get to Eden Quay once it left T2 - I suspect that it wasn't far off 30 minutes?

The main issue is getting through the city centre itself.

The running time allowed is 60 minutes.

It can exceed 1 hour at peak times though.

Zebra3 · 21-09-2017 9:55pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

They say 30 minutes to the city centre, not the entire trip - what time did it get to Eden Quay once it left T2 - I suspect that it wasn't far off 30 minutes?

The main issue is getting through the city centre itself.

The running time allowed is 60 minutes.

Still a horrendous time to travel a relatively short distance.

MJohnston · 21-09-2017 10:20pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Still a horrendous time to travel a relatively short distance.

I would imagine LXFlyer's point is merely that there's not much a bus can do to be quicker than that.

Which is why we need Dublin Metro.

LXFlyer · 21-09-2017 10:43pm

lucernarian wrote: »

It can exceed 1 hour at peak times though.

The 757? I'd find that rather difficult to believe.

I can imagine the 747 could indeed take over an hour given the route it takes through the city centre to serve the hotels.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Still a horrendous time to travel a relatively short distance.

I don't think that 30 minutes at peak times from the Airport to City Centre is that bad by bus frankly.

The problem is the traffic in the city centre and I do fear that both it and the surrounding routes are going to get worse congestion wise before they get better.

MJohnston wrote: »

I would imagine LXFlyer's point is merely that there's not much a bus can do to be quicker than that.

Which is why we need Dublin Metro.

Well my first point was just to correct the impression given re what DB were claiming re the journey time.

But yes I think it's fair to say that Metro North is badly needed, as is DART Underground, and I'd still like to see a DART spur to the airport as part of the DART Underground project.

Grandeeod · 21-09-2017 11:45pm

Mostly Metro talk in a thread about a project that would do more for Dublin and the GDA in general than "Dublin Metro" or "Metro North". I appreciate the anti CIE thing entirely and absolutely. However, if the state decides to plough on with focusing on a metro concept over actually fixing the massive issue of heavy rail in Dublin, then we are in for something spectacular and messed up!

marno21 · 22-09-2017 12:10am

LXFlyer wrote: »

The 757? I'd find that rather difficult to believe.

I can imagine the 747 could indeed take over an hour given the route it takes through the city centre to serve the hotels.

I don't think that 30 minutes at peak times from the Airport to City Centre is that bad by bus frankly.

The problem is the traffic in the city centre and I do fear that both it and the surrounding routes are going to get worse congestion wise before they get better.

Well my first point was just to correct the impression given re what DB were claiming re the journey time.

But yes I think it's fair to say that Metro North is badly needed, as is DART Underground, and I'd still like to see a DART spur to the airport as part of the DART Underground project.

I would think that routing Airport traffic via the Metro would be wise unless 4 tracking the Northern Line becomes a possibility. The Northern Line has far better uses than paralleling Metro North. If someone wants to switch to the DART they can switch at Drumcondra or SSG.

LXFlyer · 22-09-2017 5:10am

marno21 wrote: »

I would think that routing Airport traffic via the Metro would be wise unless 4 tracking the Northern Line becomes a possibility. The Northern Line has far better uses than paralleling Metro North. If someone wants to switch to the DART they can switch at Drumcondra or SSG.

Northern line expansion to 3 or 4 track is inevitable in the medium term.

Banjoxed · 22-09-2017 7:26am

Grandeeod wrote: »

Mostly Metro talk in a thread about a project that would do more for Dublin and the GDA in general than "Dublin Metro" or "Metro North". I appreciate the anti CIE thing entirely and absolutely. However, if the state decides to plough on with focusing on a metro concept over actually fixing the massive issue of heavy rail in Dublin, then we are in for something spectacular and messed up!

Well as long as we keep getting pieces in the papers about the "humble bus" being adequate in nearly all PT circumstances, then, yep, a mess is exactly what we will get.

Zebra3 · 22-09-2017 7:41am

LXFlyer wrote: »

Northern line expansion to 3 or 4 track is inevitable in the medium term.

I'd be very interested to see how people think it could be done.

Would love to see it happen but there would be huge logistical difficulties.

lucernarian · 22-09-2017 7:48am

Zebra3 wrote: »

I'd be very interested to see how people think it could be done.

Would love to see it happen but there would be huge logistical difficulties.

3-tracking would inconvenience or involve the CPO of comparatively few properties until Kilbarrack. Though the efforts to remodel the stations would be very tricky and would involve prolonged closures I suspect. (Killester, Raheny, Harmonstown, Howth Junction)

Pete_Cavan · 22-09-2017 12:25pm

lucernarian wrote: »

3-tracking would inconvenience or involve the CPO of comparatively few properties until Kilbarrack. Though the efforts to remodel the stations would be very tricky and would involve prolonged closures I suspect. (Killester, Raheny, Harmonstown, Howth Junction)

Are you saying that additional track would involve the CPO of comparatively few properties south of Kilbarrack? If so, what are you comparing it to? Much of the line is in a cutting, providing additional grade separated tracks would require serious earthworks and that requires space. You would also have to rebuild multiple bridges.

Also, the only realistic way of adding track(s) would be to do so to one side of the existing stations which has implications for the landtake required. You are talking about buying every property adjoining the line along one side, which includes hundreds of individual houses which ever side you go. It would be incredibly expensive and difficult.

BonnieSituation · 22-09-2017 12:27pm

Is there sense in 4 tracking it but say away from the current line.

I mean if we are multi tracking it anyway to provide express access from Belfast, Newry, Dundalk and Drogheda does it really need to follow the current line and all the inherent difficulties that that would involve?

Maybe starting our high speed network AWAY from the current network would be a start...

D.L.R. · 22-09-2017 12:51pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Is there sense in 4 tracking it but say away from the current line.

I mean if we are multi tracking it anyway to provide express access from Belfast, Newry, Dundalk and Drogheda does it really need to follow the current line and all the inherent difficulties that that would involve?

Maybe starting our high speed network AWAY from the current network would be a start...

One scenario would be to 4-track out from Connolly to Clontarf, and then tunnel under the northern suburbs.

And if you're going to build a new mainline tunnel for northern services, you may as well go via the airport.

But this is all fantasy football, none of it will happen in our working lives. We'll be lucky if this state wraps its head around the idea of a single low capacity metro line in the next 20 years. Clearly Dart Underground is too much for the state to deal with.

Low expectations.

Chivito550 · 22-09-2017 2:00pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The 757? I'd find that rather difficult to believe.

I can imagine the 747 could indeed take over an hour given the route it takes through the city centre to serve the hotels.

I don't think that 30 minutes at peak times from the Airport to City Centre is that bad by bus frankly.

The problem is the traffic in the city centre and I do fear that both it and the surrounding routes are going to get worse congestion wise before they get better.

Well my first point was just to correct the impression given re what DB were claiming re the journey time.

But yes I think it's fair to say that Metro North is badly needed, as is DART Underground, and I'd still like to see a DART spur to the airport as part of the DART Underground project.

You better believe it baby!

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057760938/1/#post104010650

I've been on the bus for not far off the hour before actually even reaching the Port Tunnel. From memory this journey in the thread I linked took me about 80 mins.

donvito99 · 22-09-2017 2:27pm

But this is all fantasy football, none of it will happen in our working lives. We'll be lucky if this state wraps its head around the idea of a single low capacity metro line in the next 20 years.

Does the additional frequency of Metro not negate the additional capacity of heavy rail? Or are you referring to proposed 60m length butchering of the project?

It would seem to be possible to do MN in a single bore, whereas DU/heavy rail would surely require two.

bk · 22-09-2017 3:05pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Does the additional frequency of Metro not negate the additional capacity of heavy rail? Or are you referring to proposed 60m length butchering of the project?

It does.

The two Luas lines already carry more people then both DART and commuter rail put together. And that is before the cross city line. When it opens, just the two Luas lines are expected to equal if not surpass the entire Irish Rail network!

So yes, that is down to much higher frequency.

Metro will of course bring this to a whole new height.

Of course we all hope that at least the station boxes will be built to 90m capacity, 60m will probably be ok to start with, but we would definitely regret it if it couldn't be upgraded in future.

Idbatterim · 22-09-2017 4:20pm

Does the additional frequency of Metro not negate the additional capacity of heavy rail? Or are you referring to proposed 60m length butchering of the project?

that cos cutting proposal is beyond any level of comprehension, even for the morons here. cutting capacity by 33%, to save what less than 3% of the budget, of that E80,000,000 how much goes straight back to government coffers anyway, a significant chunk of it without doubt!

LXFlyer · 22-09-2017 7:09pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

You better believe it baby!

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057760938/1/#post104010650

I've been on the bus for not far off the hour before actually even reaching the Port Tunnel. From memory this journey in the thread I linked took me about 80 mins.

The route has changed since.

lucernarian · 22-09-2017 9:10pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Are you saying that additional track would involve the CPO of comparatively few properties south of Kilbarrack? If so, what are you comparing it to? Much of the line is in a cutting, providing additional grade separated tracks would require serious earthworks and that requires space. You would also have to rebuild multiple bridges.

Also, the only realistic way of adding track(s) would be to do so to one side of the existing stations which has implications for the landtake required. You are talking about buying every property adjoining the line along one side, which includes hundreds of individual houses which ever side you go. It would be incredibly expensive and difficult.

Well, the gold course adjoining the line towards Killester wouldn't be all that hard? Some of the bridges would be suitable already. There's also rather a lot of land along embankments either side of Raheny - it would be expensive to cut into and reinforce but nothing like the cost of legal challenges and political controversy.

Chivito550 · 22-09-2017 10:16pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The route has changed since.

In what way?

antoinolachtnai · 22-09-2017 11:17pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Does the additional frequency of Metro not negate the additional capacity of heavy rail? Or are you referring to proposed 60m length butchering of the project?

It would seem to be possible to do MN in a single bore, whereas DU/heavy rail would surely require two.

You could put DU in single-bore too, if you wanted. It's only 300mm or so of difference in width between the 'light' metro gauge and the 'heavy' DART gauge.

You can run 'heavy' rail at high frequency or 'light' rail at low frequency. These are not really such different things.

LXFlyer · 23-09-2017 7:39am

Chivito550 wrote: »

In what way?

It avoids the Macken Street area and the Samuel Beckett bridge.

Chivito550 · 23-09-2017 7:44am

LXFlyer wrote: »

It avoids the Macken Street area and the Samuel Beckett bridge.

If that's the case then I was on the new route as I went through Merrion Sq Upper, Merrion Sq West, over to Pearse station and then left there. Spent about a dog's average lifetime at Busaras.

It took me 80 minutes to get to the airport from Camden St.

LXFlyer · 23-09-2017 7:49am

Chivito550 wrote: »

If that's the case then I was on the new route as I went through Merrion Sq Upper, Merrion Sq West, over to Pearse station and then left there. Spent about a dog's average lifetime at Busaras.

It took me 80 minutes to get to the airport from Camden St.

Fair enough - but that's highly unusual as the bus has a schedule that turns it back in 60 minutes.

You really do seem to be rather unlucky.

lucernarian · 23-09-2017 9:00am

LXFlyer wrote: »

Fair enough - but that's highly unusual as the bus has a schedule that turns it back in 60 minutes.

You really do seem to be rather unlucky.

This started off by me saying it can take over an hour. You certainly disagreed with me but this was hardly the point I was trying to make?

The on-ground transportation in Dublin is going to suffer more and more thanks to the Luas especially, and the increased economic activity in the city centre. Building the one metro will be too little at this stage - especially the knock-off version with one less station and the shorter platforms. Such lunacy...

bk · 23-09-2017 12:13pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You could put DU in single-bore too, if you wanted. It's only 300mm or so of difference in width between the 'light' metro gauge and the 'heavy' DART gauge.

You can run 'heavy' rail at high frequency or 'light' rail at low frequency. These are not really such different things.

I believe it was originally designed to be dual-bore, so that it could also take electric/hybrid commuter and intercity trains. But that adds a lot of cost.

I think it is currently being watered down with a redesign to be single bore, but then I think it will support DART only. No commuter/intercity trains. Basically not much more then a Metro anyway.

As for the frequency thing, you are absolutely right, no reason a "heavy" rail can't run to much higher frequency. For instance the u-Hahn and s-barn in Berlin that run every 2 minutes. However that ignores the operational reality that DART has to share its tracks with commuter and intercity rail and those limit its frequency. As a result the DART can only operate at roughly every 15 minutes and they are even struggling to schedule every 10 minutes, which while a welcome improvement, it is hardly high frequency. Even if the tunnel itself is DART only, it will still need to mix with commuter/intercity trains at either end which will limit its frequency.

Ideally DART should have its own dedicated tracks, separate to commuter/intercity, like the u-Hahn has, but their just isn't the space for that.

Actually having just wrote all this, I again wonder if it would not be much easier to just build an east to west Metro. Avoids a whole heap of issues.

D.L.R. · 23-09-2017 1:19pm

There's no need for Intercity trains to use this tunnel. The numbers don't justify it. The key user here is the Dublin commuter. If the Commuter lines get electrified as promised, they can use the tunnel without expensive hybrid technology, alongside Darts.

DU trains will in theory have dedicated tracks on the western line, once KRP2 happens, and then you can facilitate core frequency by having some Darts terminate at Docklands, or possibly Clontarf Road.

The northern line is an undoubted problem, and has no easy solution. The shortsightedness of successive govts here in developing land right up to the tracks is nothing short of staggering, leaving us with one of the network's biggest headaches. But that shouldn't stop other elements of the project going ahead.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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