DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk

MaccaTacca wrote: »

Balbriggan is served by a faster train and stops twice compared to the 15 odd stops from Bray to city center.

Is there any need to electrify between malahide and Balbriggan considering that there’s a much lower population density on this part of the line?

The issue, is that Balbriggan and the stations south of it only have a service every 30 minutes or so. That is pretty poor for a commuter type service. Electrifying this line is likely to give a service every 15 minutes, maybe even better.

Waiting time at a station can have a real effect on peoples real overall journey time. It is one of the reasons Luas is so popular, high frequency service.

antoinolachtnai

Electrifying a line doesn’t in itself make the frequency higher. It adds no trainsets and no extra line or platform capacity. It does not attract customers. It does not make the revenue increase.

It works the other way around: if the frequency is higher than a certain level then it makes sense to electrify.

bk

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Electrifying a line doesn’t in itself make the frequency higher. It adds no trainsets and no extra line or platform capacity. It does not attract customers. It does not make the revenue increase.

It works the other way around: if the frequency is higher than a certain level then it makes sense to electrify.

Well exactly, the idea will be to increase the frequency along this line as it is electrified. The electrification and the new EMU's and tri-modes to run on it will allow them to offer that higher frequency.

Bray Head

Catherine Murphy TD has an article in thejournal.ie on DART Underground.

But there is one notable public transport project already on the drawing board, planned and costed, that would revolutionise transport for the whole metropolitan area.This is the Dart Underground, previously known as the Interconnector.................One line would begin at Greystones and run continuously to Maynooth. The other would run from Balbriggan to Hazelhatch, but could eventually be extended further to Kildare town and Newbridge in one direction, and Drogheda in the other....................The major objection to the Dart Underground project is cost, currently estimated at €4 billion.......................It is the single major infrastructure project which can be launched at short notice to make a clear and sure difference to our climate change objectives, to housing and planning, and to the lives of tens of thousands of people every day.

no.8

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We don't have toilets on Dublin Bus and an hour would be the average journey time.

Whats your point?

Rail travel is inherently different to travel by bus.
It is unacceptable to not have toilet facilities on heavy rail vehicles which are used for commuter services (excluding mass transit underground networks). You can however adjust the layout depending on the route requirements. e.g. 1 toilet for every 2 carriages etc.

LeinsterDub

no.8 wrote: »

Whats your point?

Rail travel is inherently different to travel by bus.
It is unacceptable to not have toilet facilities on heavy rail vehicles which are used for commuter services (excluding mass transit underground networks). You can however adjust the layout depending on the route requirements. e.g. 1 toilet for every 2 carriages etc.

It seems perfectly acceptable on the overground and many other similar systems.

karma_coma

Mad frustrating seeing politicians and journalists writing articles like this for DART Underground every couple of months/years. Yes, it's an interesting one regarding the climate change/EU fines perspective but time and time again nothing gets set in stone or plans get shelved at policy maker level. Most I could see from this is the commissioning by government of another expensive consultants report re-looking at the project from this perspective, in comparison to a BRT option on a cost-benefit analysis and recommending the latter (and never actually building either and just paying the EU fines).

no.8

bk wrote: »

Sure, if you ask people if they want a toilet or not, they will always say yes.

But of course it is never that simple, that toilet can take up the space of ten extra passengers and that can be the difference between you being left behind on the platform.

Ironically, BE seems to think it is fine to have no toilet on a 4 hour coach journey to Cork :eek: And that was the norm on all intercity coach journeys until just 10 years ago.

No one seems too bothered not having a toilet on the DART to Bray/Greystones and that is about the same or longer. I think journey items up to 1.5 to 2 hours without a toilet is fine.

BTW I've been on those trains in the Netherlands and I've seen those toilets, shudder, I'd rather wait *

* That was about 10 years ago, might have improved since.



Fair enough, though I'd expect if they are like the DARTs, then it will have less seating and more standing space, thus no room for racks over the standing areas.

BTW These new trains don't have to look like DARTs just because they are electric. They could well be speced more similar to commuter trains with racks and toilets. We will just have to wait and see.

Hi,
I have to reply in relation to your willingness to cram more seats in to commuter trainsets I'd imagine (1.5-2hours), and to sacrifice basic facilities such as toilets / overhead racks .
From 10+ years of commuting via rail in Ireland and Switzerland (90% the later), I must disagree 100% with this notion that journey time by heavy rail should have any relevance to whether or not toilets / overhead racks are installed. This is absolutely unacceptable, you never know when the toilet may be required (sick kids/adults, people with UTI's etc....so they are basically excluded). So someone has to get off the train in that case or not bother with it, or theres a hell of a mess for cleaning staff! What can change however is the cabin layout (e.g. 2 toilets over a trainset of 4 carriages, or 4 with 8 carriages, instead of one per carriage). This is fairly regular on modern commuter trains in Europe (S-Bahns etc).

Overhead racks or storage space between seats is crucial for overall comfort levels or individuals around you. There is a fine line however between what is practical or not. For instance, the double-decker ICs in Switzerland have measly overhead storage space, so there is usually a wagon more suitable for people carrying heavier goods / buggies etc. Now I know this isnt directly applicable, but what I mean is that smart usage of volume is key (it's not all suits with briefcases on commutes). A bank of fold-up chairs for wheelchair/buggy usage or hooks for bikes etc. will draw more people towards using these services and in turn (hopefully) improve the options for everyone (e.g. off-peak use as well). One aspect is the future airport rail link. Whatever form it takes, there'll have to be accommodation for luggage in feeder services.

So BE may have done that 10 years ago on ancient trainsets, but that was then and now is different. People are often not just commuting, they can also be travelling between places, sometimes with children, and therefore are on the rails well over 2 hours. I'm sorry but it is really old-fashioned thinking on your part, a sort of macho-ism. Maybe i'm reading it wrong. The main issue I see with Irish rail, especially around Dublin is that the trainsets are too damn short to suit their purpose, not that we should strip any type of advantage out of the system). So i don't want to belittle, I just think the focus should be elsewhere.

Rail travel options have moved on, and if the system is to survive and thrive in Ireland it needs to incorporate smart, flexible design and cater for a wider audience and of course take the expected load on the line. Thats where electrifying the line can help (e.g. could double-deckers be used on existing dart lines to increase capacity).

no.8

bk wrote: »

lucernarian, it is rather ironic that we are having this argument, since I long argued that intercity coaches should have toilets. If you look on the C&T forum you will find many posts where I argued this with BE fans who swore blue that it wasn't needed. So I do get where you are coming from.

Glad to hear this. I guess I only disagree with yourself there in relation to there being any time limit for basic facilities + allowing flexibility for the rolling stock. e.g. additional long distance services for matches in croke park / the aviva etc (assuming the interconnector is in place).

IE must learn from equivalent and developed services around the world, not just look at the UK like so many Irish services do (the Dutch in this example). I think would have the same / near-enough the same list of priorities the world over.

no.8

lucernarian wrote: »

I brought up Bray and Greystones as examples of intercity train stations where DART is not the only option. I waved off the others as being closer to city centre. Shankill is indeed further out but I don't think it ever had a service with provided WCs in modern history. Still, 36 mins is much better than 45 mins or more.

Users of Dublin Bus who are using it are presumably happy to use the bus without those facilities in the first place. Likewise with BÉ. Most people have access to a car or a close relation or friend with a car and I've seen it happen that people opt for a car instead of bus just for toilet use on the way.


This is only speculation and opinion, uncited at that. I've demonstrated and sourced the anger and unhappiness over similar decisions on similar commuter routes in the Netherlands, and unless there's something fundamentally different about Dutch bladders when making 40 minute commutes, the example is quite relevant.

Bad decisions on passenger facilities and by Irish Rail-for-our-convenience will disproportionately affect the most vulnerable travellers with medical conditions that require convenient access to toilets and indeed for younger kids and the likes. There's no reason to mess the decision up now for a very small proportion of the train's capacity.

Btw, those new "flirt" trains used by NS incorporate toilets and they highlighted that as a major benefit of the new Stadler-built sets, and the soon to be built CAF ones. Their website, I quote, says "Intercity’s are equipped with toilets (increasingly wheelchair-accessible). The same applies to most Sprinters, and those Sprinters that are not yet equipped with toilets will have them installed in the near future."

Excellent points. Wish I had of read your post 1st, could of saved my fingers from a tonne of typing. I've used the equivalent Stadler trains but with toilets. Not sure what they were thinking there. Tram-like 'light-rail' services (not sure of the exact definition) can run without them if stops are numerous and avg. journey times low.

no.8

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It seems perfectly acceptable on the overground and many other similar systems.

Hi. Thanks for your response. What do you mean by the overground (a service or heavy rail)?
Maybe it is, maybe it's also poor planning. Depends on the design but some non-wheelchair friendly toilets would barely take up 4 seats, which wouldn't make any difference. I'd gladly stand all the time (and do often on busy lines) if it meant some of these features were kept even though i'd use them once every 10 trips to work.

LeinsterDub

no.8 wrote: »

Hi. Thanks for your response. What do you mean by the overground (a service or heavy rail)?
Maybe it is, maybe it's also poor planning. Depends on the design but some non-wheelchair friendly toilets would barely take up 4 seats, which wouldn't make any difference. I'd gladly stand all the time (and do often on busy lines) if it meant some of these features were kept even though i'd use them once every 10 trips to work.

The London overground. Also the DART doesn't have toilets currently and it's perfectly fine.

G_R

Bray Head wrote: »

Catherine Murphy TD has an article in thejournal.ie on DART Underground.

You'd really despair reading the comments on that article.

But I suppose, that's what I get for reading the comments section on the Journal!

Neworder79

Yesterday a commitment was given to the Dart Underground project in the government's National Planning Framework.

Drogheda, Airport... another confusing article but first reference I've seen to DU being back on the table?

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-rail-calls-for-dart-link-between-dublin-city-and-airport-826586.html

LeinsterDub

Neworder79 wrote: »

Drogheda, Airport... another confusing article but first reference I've seen to DU being back on the table?

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-rail-calls-for-dart-link-between-dublin-city-and-airport-826586.html

It's silly season, with the national development plan everyone is throwing out their favorite project.

Idbatterim

Say the line was built to the airport. How many passengers would it carry yearly? Do we have any figures? Irish Rail could construct their own massive park and ride for airport parking and those traveling into city center etc ...

marno21

Idbatterim wrote: »

Say the line was built to the airport. How many passengers would it carry yearly? Do we have any figures? Irish Rail could construct their own massive park and ride for airport parking and those traveling into city center etc ...

Or alternatively people could simply park at their local train station and take the train to the airport.

For airport link it's likely that it'll be a DART Interchange at Stephens Green rather than any dedicated airport railway link

Winters

marno21 wrote: »

Or alternatively people could simply park at their local train station and take the train to the airport.

For airport link it's likely that it'll be a DART Interchange at Stephens Green rather than any dedicated airport railway link

if this was Germany all intercity trains would start or pass through Dublin Airport.

Sam Russell

Irish Rail are still keeping DU and Clongriffin in the picture. They want the alignment reserved for Clongriffin to the airport.

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

Irish Rail are still keeping DU and Clongriffin in the picture. They want the alignment reserved for Clongriffin to the airport.

makes sense to preserve the alignment, but it should be well down the priority list.

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

makes sense to preserve the alignment, but it should be well down the priority list.

In my view it should form part of DU along with providing extra capacity (extra loops, crossovers and tracks) along the Northern line.

Idbatterim

If they made Howth a shuttle, could they run every 20 minutes to Dublin airport?

LXFlyer

Idbatterim wrote: »

If they made Howth a shuttle, could they run every 20 minutes to Dublin airport?

Well Howth would have to be a shuttle outside of peak, but that in itself would mean an increase in frequency on the branch.

You would have at least a 20 min service to the airport if not higher.

Idbatterim

as an extra revenue generator, where the line would cross the m1, nearby there are two road interchanges, could they build a massive park and ride, for people heading into the city centre and also for airport parking?

marno21

Idbatterim wrote: »

as an extra revenue generator, where the line would cross the m1, nearby there are two road interchanges, could they build a massive park and ride, for people heading into the city centre and also for airport parking?

M1 Park and Ride is planned at Lissenhall as part of the New Metro North project

Idbatterim

marno21 wrote: »

M1 Park and Ride is planned at Lissenhall as part of the New Metro North project

yes but why cant Dart also have one and use it to generate more revenue for CIE (its not like they dont need it) as we as providing more options to commuters?

Sam Russell

Idbatterim wrote: »

yes but why cant Dart also have one and use it to generate more revenue for CIE (its not like they dont need it) as we as providing more options to commuters?

Demand for Airport/Dublin CC Dart traffic would be a welcome mismatch for DCC commuter traffic. A park & ride attached to the Clongriffin spur might be unwelcome to DAA who see there own park&fly parks as a major earner.

Of course, Clongriffin does not need to be Dart - it could be express services, or a mix of both.

Idbatterim

Demand for Airport/Dublin CC Dart traffic would be a welcome mismatch for DCC commuter traffic. A park & ride attached to the Clongriffin spur might be unwelcome to DAA who see there own park&fly parks as a major earner.

I agree, but DAA wouldnt be getting a say in it...

roadmaster

I was in London today and blown away yet again by there subway network . One thing I noticed especially on my route I had to switch between DLR ,proper trains and tube to get to a meeting. Is there any major reason we could just not make dublin metro the new dart UG instead. I know people want to go straight from Kildare when it gets the dart in to SSG, but why can't we just have a major underground station at Heuston area where people can get off and either take an escalator down to the underground or hop on the Luas? Hoping between trains work fine in London the few times I have being there this year

Stephen Strange

Sam Russell wrote: »

Demand for Airport/Dublin CC Dart traffic would be a welcome mismatch for DCC commuter traffic. A park & ride attached to the Clongriffin spur might be unwelcome to DAA who see there own park&fly parks as a major earner.

Of course, Clongriffin does not need to be Dart - it could be express services, or a mix of both.

The problem with an express is that you'd have to change Howth to a Shuttle to create Northern Line capacity and with the express you wouldn't be replacing the DART capacity lost, no?