DART+ (DART Expansion)

Sam Russell

Stephen Strange wrote: »

The problem with an express is that you'd have to change Howth to a Shuttle to create Northern Line capacity and with the express you wouldn't be replacing the DART capacity lost, no?

The Howth line changing to a shuttle is no biggie - particularly if it is just off peak. Frequency would improve no doubt. [Currently 30 mins between trains].

Express would have to integrate with Dart, with perhaps a stop at Clongriffin for change to/from Dart. If ten minute Darts ever happen, then it could be a twenty minute service to Airport.

They need a third rail or passing points on the Northern line, and Dart Underground so some Darts avoid Connolly.

MICKEYG

roadmaster wrote: »

I was in London today and blown away yet again by there subway network . One thing I noticed especially on my route I had to switch between DLR ,proper trains and tube to get to a meeting. Is there any major reason we could just not make dublin metro the new dart UG instead. I know people want to go straight from Kildare when it gets the dart in to SSG, but why can't we just have a major underground station at Heuston area where people can get off and either take an escalator down to the underground or hop on the Luas? Hoping between trains work fine in London the few times I have being there this year

That is what was planned, and I believe still has planning permission, with the interconnector. DU and MN are all part of the same solution, there is just no political will to build them due to the fear of the rural TD's.

marno21

While it was certain the Western Rail Corridor expansion would not be included, there was still some discussion about the proposed rail tunnel beneath Dublin city centre but it was “highly unlikely”, Government figures said

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-s-capital-plan-to-include-a-new-hospital-in-cork-1.3383883

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

While it was certain the Western Rail Corridor expansion would not be included, there was still some discussion about the proposed rail tunnel beneath Dublin city centre but it was “highly unlikely”, Government figures said

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-s-capital-plan-to-include-a-new-hospital-in-cork-1.3383883

Mostly expected, I would say. Not much chance of DU getting progressed until after Metro North is mostly built.

In particular, no chance of Dublin getting two underground systems into a development plan while there's stuff like this going on:

It has been substantially redrafted over recent weeks in response to concerns it focused heavily on Dublin and neglected rural Ireland.

I mean, they had to change the name from the Capital Plan, because some thought that it was just a plan for Dublin. I despair at times.

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

Mostly expected, I would say. Not much chance of DU getting progressed until after Metro North is mostly built.

In particular, no chance of Dublin getting two underground systems into a development plan while there's stuff like this going on:


I mean, they had to change the name from the Capital Plan, because some thought that it was just a plan for Dublin. I despair at times.

Natural economics will change things SLOWLY. from 2011 to 2016 we went from 60% urban to 63% urban and that rate of urbanization will get a lot faster if we can tackle the cost of accommodation

Idbatterim

cgcsb wrote: »

Natural economics will change things SLOWLY. from 2011 to 2016 we went from 60% urban to 63% urban and that rate of urbanization will get a lot faster if we can tackle the cost of accommodation

which is one of the reasons there is such hesitation with addressing the cost of accommodation in government in government circles...

bk

roadmaster wrote: »

I was in London today and blown away yet again by there subway network . One thing I noticed especially on my route I had to switch between DLR ,proper trains and tube to get to a meeting. Is there any major reason we could just not make dublin metro the new dart UG instead. I know people want to go straight from Kildare when it gets the dart in to SSG, but why can't we just have a major underground station at Heuston area where people can get off and either take an escalator down to the underground or hop on the Luas? Hoping between trains work fine in London the few times I have being there this year

I've suggested much the same. Build an East/West Metro line roughly along the same route as the planned DU, but perhaps heading out towards Lucan instead of DU, with an interchange station at Heuston.

It would likely cost at least 1 billion cheaper (90m stations, instead of 200m stations, etc.).

However you might get your head bitten off for suggesting it by some people! Many people still have a very "An Lar" mentality. The bus, train, dart most take you right into O'Connell St/College Green and oh the horror if you have to change along the way!

We really need to get use to the idea that making changes can actually lead to faster journey times and overall a better service. Of course things like integrated ticketing need to be sorted to properly support that.

marno21

CatInABox wrote: »

Mostly expected, I would say. Not much chance of DU getting progressed until after Metro North is mostly built.

In particular, no chance of Dublin getting two underground systems into a development plan while there's stuff like this going on:


I mean, they had to change the name from the Capital Plan, because some thought that it was just a plan for Dublin. I despair at times.

I agree totally here.

I would hope at least that there is funding for DU to be brought to the shovel ready stage and it can start in 2027, which is both when this plan expires and when Metro North opens.

The stuff about the Capital Plan is beyond depressing. Is this what the "strategic communications unit" are coming out with now?

bk wrote: »

I've suggested much the same. Build an East/West Metro line roughly along the same route as the planned DU, but perhaps heading out towards Lucan instead of DU, with an interchange station at Heuston.

It would likely cost at least 1 billion cheaper (90m stations, instead of 200m stations, etc.).

However you might get your head bitten off for suggesting it by some people! Many people still have a very "An Lar" mentality. The bus, train, dart most take you right into O'Connell St/College Green and oh the horror if you have to change along the way!

We really need to get use to the idea that making changes can actually lead to faster journey times and overall a better service. Of course things like integrated ticketing need to be sorted to properly support that.

E/W Metro should've been done in the early 2000s as the Luas Red Line.

I think DU ticks so many boxes that it should go ahead.

Interchanges, connections with the 4 heavy rail lines, relieving city centre heavy rail congestion, high capacity, increasing capacity on already congested suburban rail services, opening up new areas for development (Clonburris, north Dublin etc)

Idbatterim

youd wonder what would the cost be of MN and DU merged to create light rail, as proposed here... Eliminates crossing liffey twice...

marno21

Idbatterim wrote: »

youd wonder what would the cost be of MN and DU merged to create light rail, as proposed here... Eliminates crossing liffey twice...

One of the main benefits to DART Underground is creating an additional Liffey crossing in order to relieve the existing Liffey crossing which is the single most congested part of the railway network in the country.

Consolidation to remove a Liffey crossing would reduce capacity to the point of it not being near worth the reduction in costs.

BonnieSituation

cgcsb wrote: »

Natural economics will change things SLOWLY. from 2011 to 2016 we went from 60% urban to 63% urban and that rate of urbanization will get a lot faster if we can tackle the cost of accommodation

Imagine the true urban figures if we didn't scar the landscape with one-off ribbon development.

AngryLips

bk wrote: »

I've suggested much the same. Build an East/West Metro line roughly along the same route as the planned DU, but perhaps heading out towards Lucan instead of DU, with an interchange station at Heuston.

Missing the point entirely that DU is about maximising utility of existing infrastructure. Pretty much everyone living along a major rail line into Dublin would benefit from DU. The same can't be said for this suggestion.

bk

AngryLips wrote: »

Missing the point entirely that DU is about maximising utility of existing infrastructure. Pretty much everyone living along a major rail line into Dublin would benefit from DU. The same can't be said for this suggestion.

4.5 billion to maximise the use of existing infrastructure is a pretty big price tag.

A East/West Metro would likely cost about 2 to 2.4 Billion and carry pretty much the same passengers, with only having to change being the only difference from a passengers point of view.

That would leave you with a spare 2 billion, now think about that, that could allow you to build a third metro line. Maybe North East to South West.

You know every time I look at the details of DU, I kind of feel that it is a bit extravagant and perhaps over-engineered for a city of our size. I totally understand what it is trying to do, but I do feel like it is a plan born out of too much of a focus on our existing heavy rail network, Irish Rail and trying to fix the mess of DART and commuter rail.

I wonder if we wouldn't be better off with a network of metro lines similar to Barcelona. Lower cost per line, but overall more of the city covered.

Idbatterim

bk wrote: »

4.5 billion to maximise the use of existing infrastructure is a pretty big price tag.

A East/West Metro would likely cost about 2 to 2.4 Billion and carry pretty much the same passengers, with only having to change being the only difference from a passengers point of view.

That would leave you with a spare 2 billion, now think about that, that could allow you to build a third metro line. Maybe North East to South West.

You know every time I look at the details of DU, I kind of feel that it is a bit extravagant and perhaps over-engineered for a city of our size. I totally understand what it is trying to do, but I do feel like it is a plan born out of too much of a focus on our existing heavy rail network, Irish Rail and trying to fix the mess of DART and commuter rail.

I wonder if we wouldn't be better off with a network of metro lines similar to Barcelona. Lower cost per line, but overall more of the city covered.

but isnt the 4.5 billion for the entire DART expansion, including rolling stock , new stations etc? Its not just for the tunnel...

marno21

Idbatterim wrote: »

but isnt the 4.5 billion for the entire DART expansion, including rolling stock , new stations etc? Its not just for the tunnel...

Yes, and by the looks of things at least Balbriggan and Maynooth will be done before the tunnel, which should knock around 4-500m off the price tag. Additional rolling stock may further reduce the cost. Additional projects like KRP2 and level crossing closures will also reduce costs

roadmaster

AngryLips wrote: »

Missing the point entirely that DU is about maximising utility of existing infrastructure. Pretty much everyone living along a major rail line into Dublin would benefit from DU. The same can't be said for this suggestion.

If maximising existing infrastructure is what you want why not go all in make the metro dart instead. Surely there has to be some sense in having only one type of underground weather it's DU or Metro in a city the size of Dublin. There would be saving in design, operation and general maintance . You would have a fully intergrated rail network

I still think people can get off and walk to an interchange if we went with metros instead

marno21

roadmaster wrote: »

If maximising existing infrastructure is what you want why not go all in make the metro dart instead. Surely there has to be some sense in having only one type of underground weather it's DU or Metro in a city the size of Dublin. There would be saving in design, operation and general maintance . You would have a fully intergrated rail network

I still think people can get off and walk to an interchange if we went with metros instead

It makes sense for it to be light rail if it's connecting with the Luas Green Line given the gauges.

DU and MN are hugely different projects tho. Metro is about bringing rail to an unserved corridor whereas DU is about providing a massive capacity upgrade for existing infrastructure and expanding its capabilities.

murphaph

Many other cities realised decades ago that joining up their terminal stations to allow through running makes sense.

If I'm not mistaken Dublin's original interconnector is the loop line. Imagine rail transport in the city if trains still terminated at Connolly and Pearse!

Berlin's interconnector is a hundred years old and built above ground like the loop line, though much longer.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Stadtbahn

Munich's dates from the 70s.

Glasgow also did it.

Liverpool too.

It's a no brainer IMO and remains the most important missing piece of infrastructure in the state.

jd

murphaph wrote:

It's a no brainer IMO and remains the most important missing piece of infrastructure in the state.

Looks like it is dead now, though. Discarded as a pro quid pro for omitting the Western Rail Corridor. And Paschal can tell his East Wall constituents that he killed it.

AngryLips

bk wrote: »

4.5 billion to maximise the use of existing infrastructure is a pretty big price tag.

A East/West Metro would likely cost about 2 to 2.4 Billion and carry pretty much the same passengers, with only having to change being the only difference from a passengers point of view.

That would leave you with a spare 2 billion, now think about that, that could allow you to build a third metro line. Maybe North East to South West.

You know every time I look at the details of DU, I kind of feel that it is a bit extravagant and perhaps over-engineered for a city of our size. I totally understand what it is trying to do, but I do feel like it is a plan born out of too much of a focus on our existing heavy rail network, Irish Rail and trying to fix the mess of DART and commuter rail.

I wonder if we wouldn't be better off with a network of metro lines similar to Barcelona. Lower cost per line, but overall more of the city covered.

Why not build 60m metro platforms while we're at it. The fact is that something would still need to be done with capacity on existing lines even if this 'metro underground' fantasy goes ahead.

roadmaster wrote: »

If maximising existing infrastructure is what you want why not go all in make the metro dart instead.

And what existing infrastructure exactly is going to benefit from greater utilisation with this stupid idea?

roadmaster

AngryLips wrote: »

Why not build 60m metro platforms while we're at it. The fact is that something would still need to be done with capacity on existing lines even if this 'metro underground' fantasy goes ahead.



And what existing infrastructure exactly is going to benefit from greater utilisation with this stupid idea?

Which bit is stupid?

bk

Idbatterim wrote: »

but isnt the 4.5 billion for the entire DART expansion, including rolling stock , new stations etc? Its not just for the tunnel...

Partly true and yes you would still want those to go ahead and it looks like they will even if we get the tunnel or not.

However those works would only add up to about 1 billion or so. And at that a bis stretch.

I suspect that the heavy rail nature of the tunnel (200m stations, two tunnel bores, etc.) adds about 1.5 billion to the cost over what a Metro tunnel would cost.

To clarify of the estimated 4.5 billion cost:
- 500 million for rolling stock
- 500 million for electrification and other upgrade works.
- 3.5 billion for the tunnel.

I suspect you could build a Metro tunnel along the same alignment for about 1.5 to 2 billion. Would save you a nice 1.5 to 2 billion.

cgcsb

By the time it happens the numbers will be completely different anyway. Add inflation, take away costs based on the improvement in and increased automation of tunneling technology. We'll be talking a completely different number.

We can't get away with a €4bn spend right now because we've no mayor and no ability to raise our own revenue as a City, we're a 37% rural state, and boy do they begrudge. Best we can do now is electrify Maynooth and Newbridge. buy lots of new DARTS, close all level crossings, KRP2. All the while local government will be reworked to give Dublin and Cork more independence, and the population will be moving, through better education and natural economic factors into Dublin and Cork. Then in about 2030 we can probably proceed with the tunnel.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

By the time it happens the numbers will be completely different anyway. Add inflation, take away costs based on the improvement in and increased automation of tunneling technology. We'll be talking a completely different number.

Not really, of course inflation will increase costs, but the fundamental differences will still be there.

If today heavy rail costs 4.5b and Metro costs 2 billion. 10 years from now heavy rail will cost 5.5b and Metro 3 billion, their will still be that 2 billion gap.

Tunnelling is already heavily automated, which it is why digging out station boxes ends up costing the majority of the cost. Any decrease in costs of tunnelling equally benefits doing it by Metro.

The truth is the long length of DART actually hurts it in terms of mass transit. Increasing DARTS to 8 carriages was a dirty band-aid to the DART service to increase capacity since they couldn't do what you would normally do to increase capacity on a mass transit system, which is increase frequency, since DART shares track with commuter and intercity trains too.

Now these extra long DART carriages will make tunnelling it extra expensive.

To be honest, almost the entire history of DART is one badly thought out short term fix after another.

Banging EMU's on a shared track with Diesel commuter and intercity trains, rather then giving it it's own track like they have in Berlin is pretty stupid. Being forced to lengthen trains and stations in order to increase capacity, due to lack of frequency. Half of it's catchment area being fishes. Extending it out to Howth and Greystones due to political interference.

All so Irish.

I know we didn't have the money in the 70's to do anything else and they did the best with what we had. However had we the money, I'm pretty sure we would have never built a service like the DART. Instead we would have built a network of light rail Metros lines similar to Barcelona and completely separate from the commuter and intercity network.

It would have given use a much better mass transit system and would have allowed for better commuter and intercity services.

But now we are very much seeing the limitations of DART and the costs of it.

I'm not at all convinced that continuing to buy 4+ billion into it is at al a wise move.

DU may well be the best option. But I'd like to see the government do a detail report/analysis into other possible alternatives along that route, similar to they did with Metro North.

Folks seem to be just taking Irish Rails word that this is the only option. I'm not at all sure that is the case and it should at least be looked at.

cgcsb wrote: »

We can't get away with a €4bn spend right now because we've no mayor and no ability to raise our own revenue as a City, we're a 37% rural state, and boy do they begrudge. Best we can do now is electrify Maynooth and Newbridge. buy lots of new DARTS, close all level crossings, KRP2. All the while local government will be reworked to give Dublin and Cork more independence, and the population will be moving, through better education and natural economic factors into Dublin and Cork. Then in about 2030 we can probably proceed with the tunnel.

I agree with most of what you say above.

Bray Head

bk wrote: »

If today heavy rail costs 4.5b and Metro costs 2 billion. 10 years from now heavy rail will cost 5.5b and Metro 3 billion, their will still be that 2 billion gap.

That's not how inflation works. It is a general rise in the price level. So the difference remains the same in relative terms, not in absolute terms.

Atlantic Dawn

bk wrote: »

Extending it out to Howth and Greystones due to political interference.

Are you thinking of Malahide? The Dart went to Howth from launch.

lucernarian

On one hand people see huge benefits in allowing the green line luas to be added to Metro "North" instead of the current plan's terminus at Stephen's Green. And yet one of those, bk, thinks a metro changeover is fine rather than linking the Dart to Heuston?

What's up with that?

The 4 billion price of DU is practically fake news, the tunnel component is only a proportion of that. And so far no one can hope to offer accurate numbers for whatever the new metro North proposal will cost.

KOR101

Can someone explain to me the advantages of extending the Dart to Balbriggan.

I can see that it could mean more frequent trains but presumably the added Dart trains would be slower than the existing commuter trains with the extra stops. Is electricity much cheaper? Scratching my head a bit to see the big advantage.

donvito99

lucernarian wrote: »

On one hand people see huge benefits in allowing the green line luas to be added to Metro "North" instead of the current plan's terminus at Stephen's Green. And yet one of those, bk, thinks a metro changeover is fine rather than linking the Dart to Heuston?

What's up with that?

The 4 billion price of DU is practically fake news, the tunnel component is only a proportion of that. And so far no one can hope to offer accurate numbers for whatever the new metro North proposal will cost.

For one the demand not met on the existing Green line is clear, whereas a Dart connection from Heuston to the Northern Line is essentially bringing a more expensive heavy rail link to open fields and sprawling housing estates.

A Metro North tie in to the Green Line at Charlemont is another 800m of tunneling and a portal. That's it, other than heightening/lengthening platforms and closing crossings at Beechwood etc.

Would you be in favour of Irish Rails proposal to cut costs and stop DU at Pearse? It's the same logic. You only need to look at a map, and at the fractional marginal cost of potentially tripling the capacity of an alignment that is already packed to see that it would be insane to have boring machines merely buried into the ground at SSG as is presently proposed.

fionnsci

KOR101 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the advantages of extending the Dart to Balbriggan.

I can see that it could mean more frequent trains but presumably the added Dart trains would be slower than the existing commuter trains with the extra stops. Is electricity much cheaper? Scratching my head a bit to see the big advantage.

I'm only guessing but maybe in order to construct new stops closer together as there's faster acceleration and deceleration. Which would allow construction of new (ideally high density) housing near these stops. I don't have the inside scoop and I'm not particularly familiar with the line so this is just the benefit that I can ascertain.