DART+ (DART Expansion)

MJohnston

lucernarian wrote: »

I listed out the "empty land" that was in the vicinity of Metro North beyond the Airport environs, which consists of parkland, is developed already or is otherwise not zoned residential.

[..]

And that still doesn't change the realities around Metro North and its capability to stimulate development along the route (as opposed to house prices), and how there is nowhere for that to happen away from the airport environs.

That's not all it consists of, particularly in Ballymun, here's a very easy resource that's about a year old showing plenty of housing land in Ballymun, the potential for some more in Swords, and a "Dubber Cross" that Fingal CoCo have pitched as housing land:
http://rebuildingireland.ie/news/rebuilding-ireland-land-map/

You could also make the argument that the northernmost Metro station will serve Donabate very well indeed, and there's a massive development site available there. And this map of course doesn't include land that is ripe for redevelopment, which a larger portion of Ballymun would be included in.

Idbatterim

going over old ground here, but if it werent for the recession, we would almost 100% have metro north, **** hits the fan, no government here was going to spend billions on an infrastructure project, when gardai were allegedly sending their kids out to school on empty stomachs etc.

All we need to hope is, that there is no crash before the TBM are in the ground, there is nothing else coming on stream, that will take pressure off the need for NMN...

the cost outlined is fairly staggering for an Irish infrastructure project. This might be an off the wall idea, but what would it cost to link the port tunnel under busaras and to around the OCS area as phase one, then another line running westwards to connect with m50 and then finally the eastern bypass?

dublin is so car centric... Where will all these new driverless electric cars where are they going to go? There was an article recently in the independent.ie saying how this 2040 takes no account of the massive change in technology that will be effective by then or likely, way before then...

lucernarian

MJohnston wrote: »

That's not all it consists of, particularly in Ballymun, here's a very easy resource that's about a year old showing plenty of housing land in Ballymun, the potential for some more in Swords, and a "Dubber Cross" that Fingal CoCo have pitched as housing land:
http://rebuildingireland.ie/news/rebuilding-ireland-land-map/

You could also make the argument that the northernmost Metro station will serve Donabate very well indeed, and there's a massive development site available there. And this map of course doesn't include land that is ripe for redevelopment, which a larger portion of Ballymun would be included in.

Thanks firstly for giving a proper reply. Again though, the map shows the land north of the road going to IKEA is not considered for residential development. Dubber Cross is a 42 minute walk away from the current R108. That's like saying most of Celbridge would be suddenly served by Dart if Hazelhatch was electrified. And there's a 3km walk and a motorway junction between Donabate and the terminal Estuary station *as things stand*.

The irony there is that Donabate is already served by a relatively central train station, whose service will be significantly improved by Dart expansion...

Also, that's literally a map showing all potential sites in the country which are already available for development - without the need for Metro North in the first place. The map does show land for redevelopment, such as the site at the Pavillions car park in Swords, the most significant one shown in the vicinity of Metro North in Swords. And the thing is, it has planning granted and will be built before metro construction has even begun Assuming nothing unexpected happens and the new metro gets held up or cancelled.

It's hard to know where to start or end with Dart Underground and the potential it has to transform the entire GDA and unlock currently-unzoned land.

MJohnston

Of course none of the sites are completely reliant upon Metro, just as none of the sites that could be highlighted for DU are reliant upon that project. But I think it would be naive to suggest that they all would be developed either with Metro or with the future presence of Metro confirmed. Metro will also change the character of any potential developments too, as in denser and taller.

By the by, I do think electrifying Hazelhatch would make Celbridge a much more viable commuter town, which in turn would spur extra development.

But again, I think this all goes back to my original point - Metro is an easier sell because it unlocks new areas for development.

(As an aside: one also might argue that a lot of the existing Ballymun redevelopment occurred because of the potential arrival of Metro).

marno21

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-02-20a.451

Statements on Project 2040 yesterday. The phrase "western rail corridor" is mentioned twice, whilst the phrase "dart underground" or even "dart" is not mentioned (nor the word "interconnector").

karma_coma

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-02-20a.451

Statements on Project 2040 yesterday. The phrase "western rail corridor" is mentioned twice, whilst the phrase "dart underground" or even "dart" is not mentioned (nor the word "interconnector").

Government's got its priorities in order evidently..:rolleyes:

So under Project 2040, are the goals of the NTA from this page just totally trashed? There's a commitment they had listed on this page:- http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/dart-expansion-programme

The NTA stated: wrote:

That the design and planning work of the revised DART Underground Project is advanced in order to be available for commencement of construction after 2020; and

Also, this document had the NTA's reduced cost option for DU from back in 2015: http://www.irishrail.ie/media/dart_underground_expansion_september_2015_(1).pptx

thebsharp

DU doesn't form part of the latest capital plan

Idbatterim

how long would it take IR to have the clongriffin spur to airport built, if it were told to go ahead with it today?

MJohnston

Idbatterim wrote: »

how long would it take IR to have the clongriffin spur to airport built, if it were told to go ahead with it today?

I don't know the answer to your question, but I don't think you could ever have that spur built in isolation from the effect adding it would have to the rest of the DART network. That'd probably the really difficult bit.

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

how long would it take IR to have the clongriffin spur to airport built, if it were told to go ahead with it today?

5 years at a cost of 200 to 300 million according to Don Cunnigham, IE Director of infrastructure. That was in 2016.

Grandeeod

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't know the answer to your question, but I don't think you could ever have that spur built in isolation from the effect adding it would have to the rest of the DART network. That'd probably the really difficult bit.

An IE slideshow from 2011. Explains their side of it.

https://www.slideshare.net/PatrickKing1/dart-link-to-dublin-airport-10182754

Brian CivilEng

Grandeeod wrote: »

5 years at a cost of 200 to 300 million according to Don Cunnigham, IE Director of infrastructure. That was in 2016.

That assumed an airport station in the current Red car park about a kilometer from the terminals.

Grandeeod

abitofacomedian wrote: »

That assumed an airport station in the current Red car park about a kilometer from the terminals.

According to the slideshow above, the station is well within the airport complex.

MJohnston

Grandeeod wrote: »

An IE slideshow from 2011. Explains their side of it.

https://www.slideshare.net/PatrickKing1/dart-link-to-dublin-airport-10182754

It does mention DU a good few times, but in a way that makes me think they're saying the spur won't work as well without DU to support it?

Idbatterim

i just looked at google maps, couldnt it simply be run on stilts up until red car park then continue on stilts, until it hits t2? how long is an 8 carriage dart? see crude photo attached, have station right beside T2... I take it, that it would only be single track?

funny the CIE slide says airport will have 38,000,000 passengers by 2030. It will likely have 38,000,000 passengers by 2021! Could be before that, ryanair are going to start feeding aer lingus transatlantic soon, if aer lingus ramp up capacity, it will be interesting...

would there be any sense in having it as diesel locomotive and brand it (Airport Express) etc? would that save much on electrification of the line?

L1011

It wouldn't save enough to be worth it, and as it stands there is absolutely no diesel rolling stock available but there are spare DARTs

Grandeeod

MJohnston wrote: »

It does mention DU a good few times, but in a way that makes me think they're saying the spur won't work as well without DU to support it?

I can only go on the presentation and IE claim that after signaling upgrades (These are either done or nearly complete) they can run an Airport - Bray/Greystones service. The DU references appear to refer to running IC services to the Airport and were considered a long term idea.

I like the concept on the basis of what Don Cunningham has been saying in recent years. If Metro isn't delivered, at least we could have an Airport connection of some sort. IE aren't offering this up as an alternative to Metro. They appear to be trying to promote a rail connection to the Airport in case Metro doesn't get built. An acceptable position in fairness. The DAA are planning some building works and they may kill off the optional DART routes in the Airport environs.

sdanseo

sdanseo wrote: »

Have just sent a mail to the Minister and also local FG TD (since Ross isn't a FG member) explaining my absolute dismay at the shelving of DU and asking why.

Specifically, I also asked when "post 2027" means and also what the actual plan is once we have 4 DART lines - presumably all with 10 or 15 minute projected frequency - meeting at the loop line which doesn't have that level of capacity. What way will trains run etc.

Be interesting to see if there's any answer. Of course it will be a pfo or nothing at all but I'm curious which.

6 days later, 50% acknowledgement. Cursory reply from the local lad promising a detailed reply in due course.

6 days for acknowledgement, maybe 30 days to be fobbed off, I'll hazard a guess at 180 days for any sort of meaningful reply from the minister and 37 years before a shovel is lifted.

strassenwo!f

If the current metro plan comes to pass, with a link between the metro and all DART routes at Tara Street, a link with the LUAS red line at O'Connell Street, the Phoenix Park tunnel in operation, the Loop Line upgrade and the effective conversion of the LUAS green line southside route into a metro, it becomes very hard to see how the DART Underground project is going to happen in the next few decades.

The project had two official objectives: to link up all rail-based transport in the city, and to relieve the Connolly Station bottleneck.

All the current and proposed rail-based transport in Dublin will be linked up by the metro, and the Loop Line upgrade helps to relieve the Connolly Bottleneck.

In those circumstances, a case for the DART Underground is very hard to make.

I am very disappointed, as I felt that that tunnel could have opened up vast opportunities for development of West Dublin and for cross-city travel.

roadmaster

With the Dart going to Dunboyne I wonder if the line got extended to navan as talked about which is not that far extra would we see it being made a dart line instead of conventional diesel

donvito99

roadmaster wrote: »

With the Dart going to Dunboyne I wonder if the line got extended to navan as talked about which is not that far extra would we see it being made a dart line instead of conventional diesel

Isn't it like 40km?

Idbatterim

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/new-dart-plan-backs-away-from-underground-route-36638480.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_multiple_unit

Lads why not just use battery operated trains? Saves issue with ppt and electrification. Battery tech is coming on leaps and bounds. They are using it in Japan, amongst other places. I’m assuming a few years on from now it will have greatly improved again ...

KOR101

Between 2022 and 2025, the new Dart vehicles will be deployed to provide services on the Drogheda line every five minutes

That will be some challenge with the Enterprise sharing the line. There are going to be a lot of unhappy people if that means the current journey times increase substantially. Or do the Dart trains go faster on average?

Sam Russell

donvito99 wrote: »

Isn't it like 40km?

Dunboyne to Navan is 30 km. Navan to Drogheda is 22 km with a working railway line already.

roadmaster

Sam Russell wrote: »

Dunboyne to Navan is 30 km. Navan to Drogheda is 22 km with a working railway line already.

With drogheda getting the dart would it not just add to conjestion on the Belfast Dublin line if you where to add navan passenger trains as well. If you go navan clonsilla it won't be as bad also bare in mind in Dunshaughin where a station was due to be built one developer alone is currently building 800 houses . With many other developments on the books there it will need good public transport or we may double up the M3

MaccaTacca

How will a DART to Drogheda work? The DART is slow enough as it is, but it atleast serves highly populated areas.

Drogheda is 50km from Connolly station, Greystones is 28km. I just don’t see how there will be enough people using this service.

There is a good 10km of green fields with no people between balbriggan and Drogheda, I personally think that the DART won’t work, and won’t be delivered to Drogheda.

Zebra3

Sure what'll the travel time be from Drogheda to Dublin city centre by DART with it stopping everywhere along the way?

Utter madness.

KOR101

I think the idea may be more frequent trains at peak times. Certainly on the morning train I catch everyone at Balbriggan gets a seat but only a few people at Skerries get one. It could work if they run some of the trains non-stop from Malahide.

MaccaTacca

Zebra3 wrote: »

Sure what'll the travel time be from Drogheda to Dublin city centre by DART with it stopping everywhere along the way?

Utter madness.

It takes 50 minutes to Greystones which is 28 km away from CC. Bray is 35-40 mins at 19/20km away. How on earth will Drogheda work? Especially considering there isn’t a huge population density on that line?

Bray is physically attached to Dun Laoghaire Rath Down, Which has a combined population of about 300,000, Greystones is just beyond this. A dart to Balbriggan is a fine idea, but to Drogheda is madness.

bk

I doubt they will actually electrify all the way to Drogheda. I suspect they will electrify as far as Balbriggan and what will run to Drogheda is dual-mode or Tri-mode trains which run on electric as far as Balbriggan and then run Diesel from there on.