DART+ (DART Expansion)

monument

Kennedy35 wrote: »

I suggest you all read the E.I.S for the application for a Railway Order for the DART Underground. It will take quite some time despite your superior "educational and professional attainment". A visit to the Oral Hearing should also be helpful to you.
I am not a member of any political party but am and always have been a resident of East Wall. Your derisory and childish remarks about Mary Lou McDonald and Joe Costello are quite in keeping with someone who displays a fundamental lack of knowledge of the project, as planned, and the negative impact it will have on our community.
Arrogance and stupidity together is what has brought this country to our current situation. You display both in abundance.

The comments on spelling and education are childish. And there's no real point at this stage attacking one or the other politicians as a number are supporting residents from different parties (FG, Labour, SF, independents, and FF too?).

It looks like these is still a large problem in Ireland on consultation on large projects as well as smaller ones, but these is also the problem of a lot of people only being interested after projects develop and people paying no attention to open days etc. Environmental Impact Statements are not really a great way for the general public to read up on projects and most of the media only go into details after there are major problems or objections.

It is clear that East Wall will be one of the most -- if not the most -- exposed areas to construction of the tunnel. But posters and other information with over the top claims don't help matters. Even if the aim is a valid one (ie to spike people's interest), misinformation or information with no source of context will not help residents.

Hopefully the oral hearing can clear up any issues which lack clear information and, if the project is approved, An Bord Pleanala will set conditions which minimalism disruption and allows people to get on with their lives when/if ever construction starts.

Pete_Cavan

Kennedy35 wrote: »

I suggest you all read the E.I.S for the application for a Railway Order for the DART Underground. It will take quite some time despite your superior "educational and professional attainment". A visit to the Oral Hearing should also be helpful to you.
I am not a member of any political party but am and always have been a resident of East Wall. Your derisory and childish remarks about Mary Lou McDonald and Joe Costello are quite in keeping with someone who displays a fundamental lack of knowledge of the project, as planned, and the negative impact it will have on our community.
Arrogance and stupidity together is what has brought this country to our current situation. You display both in abundance.

Militant NIMBYism also played a large part. You and other East Wall residents are displaying that in abundance and your politicians are latching onto that in order to get votes. They dont care that building DU is in the national interests, the only train MLM, Costello, etc. are interested in is the Dail Eireann gravy train for which they can buy a ticket at the expensive of the rest of the country as long as they appease East Wall residents.

Of course there will be disruption, but that is unavoidable on a project on this scale. A few years disruption is a small price to pay for a piece of infrastructure that will benefit the area and the city (and by extension, the entire country) for the next 100 years.

Empire o de Sun

I my opinion, it's about getting as much for east wall as possible out of dart underground. people see large projects as free money. the don't realise that they are at the end of the day paying for it as tax payers.

Kennedy35

Your opinions don't matter when you are clearly uneducated and uninformed with regard to the DART Underground Project. An infrastructure project that serves only to replicate underground what currently exists overground will benefit who? Your opinions only serve to demonstrate that you have no knowledge of the Railway Order, EIS and have not attended the Oral hearing.
To quote one opinion “people see large projects as free money”. It is an interesting observation in that it is most likely correct, when it pertains to the Contractors and Iarnrod Eireann. A point that could have been valid is unfortunately negated when it applied to a community. There is really only one response that can be made in this instance, to ignore your ignorant ranting. Perhaps if you educate yourselves, make a valid comment, it could be worthy of a response. Until then you are best ignored.

donvito99

Kennedy35 wrote: »

I suggest you all read the E.I.S for the application for a Railway Order for the DART Underground. It will take quite some time despite your superior "educational and professional attainment". A visit to the Oral Hearing should also be helpful to you.
I am not a member of any political party but am and always have been a resident of East Wall. Your derisory and childish remarks about Mary Lou McDonald and Joe Costello are quite in keeping with someone who displays a fundamental lack of knowledge of the project, as planned, and the negative impact it will have on our community.
Arrogance and stupidity together is what has brought this country to our current situation. You display both in abundance.

When you are voting for a national assembly keep the city and countrys interests at heart also, and not just your own.

This city will be around long after you or I are gone, its about time we took the leap for once and do something that may cause some inconvenience for a short period but will have long lasting social and economic benefits.

donvito99

Kennedy35 wrote: »

An infrastructure project that serves only to replicate underground what currently exists overground will benefit who?

Fine then.

Lets build it overground, right through east wall. Happy?

Jack Noble

Kennedy35 wrote: »

Your opinions don't matter when you are clearly uneducated and uninformed with regard to the DART Underground Project. An infrastructure project that serves only to replicate underground what currently exists overground will benefit who? Your opinions only serve to demonstrate that you have no knowledge of the Railway Order, EIS and have not attended the Oral hearing.
To quote one opinion “people see large projects as free money”. It is an interesting observation in that it is most likely correct, when it pertains to the Contractors and Iarnrod Eireann. A point that could have been valid is unfortunately negated when it applied to a community. There is really only one response that can be made in this instance, to ignore your ignorant ranting. Perhaps if you educate yourselves, make a valid comment, it could be worthy of a response. Until then you are best ignored.

What overground line does Dart Underground replicate?

And if you say the Luas Red line you fundamentally misunderstand or clearly do not understand Dart Underground, its raison d'etre and the benefits it will bring to the city and the country.

You bought a house beside one of the biggest rail yards in the country - did you really think it and the areas around it would never be developed?

An east-west underground Dart line is not a new project - it has been on the drawing board since 1975 and was part of the original three-line Dart system abandoned in the 1980s.

The current Dart Underground (Interconnector) from Docklands to Heuston has been planned since 1995 and was part of the DTO Platform for Change strategy published in 2001.

Are you trying to tell us you missed all this when you bought a house near the CIE yards in Docklands? If you did, then it's your own bloody fault.

Dart Underground will be built and the people of East Wall will not prevent it with their NIMBY whingeing.

Of course, Irish Rail and its contractors should ensure disruption during construction is minimised but residents in no way should be allowed to prevent this project.

But if you think a vote for the likes of Mary Lou McDonald or Joe Costello will prevent DartU going ahead, then you are incredibly naive.. Sinn Fein will be nowhere near government and party policy - as opposed to MLM's populist posturing in East Wall - is to build DartU and Metro North.

Costello is a clown and will be nothing but a backbencher or at best junior minister in any FG-Labour govt. And his gombeen NIMBY stance on DartU and Metro North will ensure he will be nowhere near the Department of Transport as he will clearly have cREATED a major conflict of interest.

DartU and Metro are critical to the future mid- to long-term economic and social development of Dublin and are supported by all the local authorities and state agencies responsible for economic development - and all the main political parties.

Both may be delayed due to the current economic problems but they will be built or under construction by the end of the decade. The mistakes of the past with regard to the original Dart plan will not be repeated.

paulm17781

Kennedy35 wrote: »

An infrastructure project that serves only to replicate underground what currently exists overground will benefit who?

Could you tell me what it replicates? I've done a good bit of research on it and it doesn't replicate anything that exists. Unless there is a train line through the city that I am unaware of.

Amtmann

Kennedy35 wrote: »

Arrogance and stupidity together is what has brought this country to our current situation. You display both in abundance.

Kennedy35 wrote: »

Your opinions don't matter when you are clearly uneducated and uninformed with regard to the DART Underground Project. An infrastructure project that serves only to replicate underground what currently exists overground will benefit who? Your opinions only serve to demonstrate that you have no knowledge of the Railway Order, EIS and have not attended the Oral hearing.
To quote one opinion “people see large projects as free money”. It is an interesting observation in that it is most likely correct, when it pertains to the Contractors and Iarnrod Eireann. A point that could have been valid is unfortunately negated when it applied to a community. There is really only one response that can be made in this instance, to ignore your ignorant ranting. Perhaps if you educate yourselves, make a valid comment, it could be worthy of a response. Until then you are best ignored.

Kennedy35, I have bolded the aspects of your posts that are unacceptable in this forum. You are a new poster so I will give you some leeway, but you are required to familiarise yourself with these rules before posting again.
Heated debate is fine; but personalised insults made directly against other posters on this forum are not. Thanks.

Jehuty42

Kennedy35 wrote: »

An infrastructure project that serves only to replicate underground what currently exists overground will benefit who?

Oh for god's sake, the Phoenix Park Tunnel is not equivalent to the DU in any way.

Wild Bill

Lauder wrote: »

Hardly surprising is it, given the educational and professional attainment of your typical SFer.

Compared to....? You? A typical FGer? :mad:

Wild Bill

btw - I am 100% in favour of DU.

But if political cheap-shots are allowed to pollute these threads you won't find me wanting. :cool:

DWCommuter

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Oh for god's sake, the Phoenix Park Tunnel is not equivalent to the DU in any way.

Thats only an assumption. He/she may not mean that route.

Lauder

Kennedy35 wrote: »

I suggest you all read the E.I.S for the application for a Railway Order for the DART Underground. It will take quite some time despite your superior "educational and professional attainment". A visit to the Oral Hearing should also be helpful to you.
I am not a member of any political party but am and always have been a resident of East Wall. Your derisory and childish remarks about Mary Lou McDonald and Joe Costello are quite in keeping with someone who displays a fundamental lack of knowledge of the project, as planned, and the negative impact it will have on our community.
Arrogance and stupidity together is what has brought this country to our current situation. You display both in abundance.

My comments on the DU project are not that of 'arrogance'. They are the result of detailed analysis and research. I am fully aware of the details of the DU project (primarily due to the fact that I developed project specific hedonic price models for the East Wall and Inchicore areas).

It is your comments are those that show arrogance 'in abundance' with your lack of awareness of the greater benefits to the East Wall area and indeed to the individual residents (both economically and socially).

I think you sincerely need to revaluate your views of DU, and certainly think twice before issuing demeaning comments on my knowledge of the project.

The level of short-sightedness and gombeenism shown by the East Wall resident group and the pathetic politicians (or non-politicans in Mary Lou's case) who latched on to their views, is a sad indicator of everything that is wrong with infrastructural developed in this state.

Empire o de Sun

Kennedy35 wrote: »

Your opinions don't matter when you are clearly uneducated and uninformed with regard to the DART Underground Project. An infrastructure project that serves only to replicate underground what currently exists overground will benefit who? Your opinions only serve to demonstrate that you have no knowledge of the Railway Order, EIS and have not attended the Oral hearing.
To quote one opinion “people see large projects as free money”. It is an interesting observation in that it is most likely correct, when it pertains to the Contractors and Iarnrod Eireann. A point that could have been valid is unfortunately negated when it applied to a community. There is really only one response that can be made in this instance, to ignore your ignorant ranting. Perhaps if you educate yourselves, make a valid comment, it could be worthy of a response. Until then you are best ignored.

Sorry, I am an uneducated North Sider who happens to have some experience in Engineering projects where people always look at them and say "whats in it for me"

In my opinion it is a level of corruption that costs the state millions every year.

BrianD

Kennedy35 wrote: »

Your opinions don't matter when you are clearly uneducated and uninformed with regard to the DART Underground Project. An infrastructure project that serves only to replicate underground what currently exists overground will benefit who? Your opinions only serve to demonstrate that you have no knowledge of the Railway Order, EIS and have not attended the Oral hearing.
To quote one opinion “people see large projects as free money”. It is an interesting observation in that it is most likely correct, when it pertains to the Contractors and Iarnrod Eireann. A point that could have been valid is unfortunately negated when it applied to a community. There is really only one response that can be made in this instance, to ignore your ignorant ranting. Perhaps if you educate yourselves, make a valid comment, it could be worthy of a response. Until then you are best ignored.

Well off the mark here. DART Underground benefits more of Dublin and significantly more so that Metro North will.

It links up existing rail infrastructure creating an integrated network out of existing lines and increasing capacity and service along these lines.

In other cities, research and practice it's this integration that increases usage across the network.

coolperson05

Evening all,

Just a naive question, but in these cash strapped times, I wont why they wouldn't just combine DART underground and Metro North together into one project? Have the DART coming from Heuston as planned, to Stephens Green and have a 2nd (or what would be 3rd) line off it after Docklands and go underground to the Airport (and Swords). It would link almost directly to Heuston and the Airport which would be very appealing to travellers from Waterford, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Mayo and all in between.

With Metro North alone, its fairly disconnected....I would have thought.

Again, feel free to correct me! It just occurred to me there

DWCommuter

coolperson05 wrote: »

Evening all,

Just a naive question, but in these cash strapped times, I wont why they wouldn't just combine DART underground and Metro North together into one project? Have the DART coming from Heuston as planned, to Stephens Green and have a 2nd (or what would be 3rd) line off it after Docklands and go underground to the Airport (and Swords). It would link almost directly to Heuston and the Airport which would be very appealing to travellers from Waterford, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Mayo and all in between.

With Metro North alone, its fairly disconnected....I would have thought.

Again, feel free to correct me! It just occurred to me there

Lets no get into the technical aspects because the political ones are far better when discussing these matters. MN and DU are separate projects due to a combination of political dick swinging and a complete failure to deal with the dinosaur that is CIE. I'm only scratching the surface, so forgive me. The depth of this issue would make longer and more interesting reading.;)

Jehuty42

Speaking of which, any progress on that book I understand you intend to release?

markpb

coolperson05 wrote: »

With Metro North alone, its fairly disconnected....I would have thought.

Where do people get this idea? It will join the Airport (which is now used as a BE intercharge), Luas Red Line, Luas Green line and the Dart (if DU is build). Luas BXD and F and Metro West would also have joined it if they were built.

I'm not arguing for or against it, just against this idea that it's disconnected because it doesn't join Connolly or Heuston directly. Somehow, the Luas Green line manages to do very well even though it's *totally* disconnected.

Jack Noble

markpb wrote: »

Where do people get this idea? It will join the Airport (which is now used as a BE intercharge), Luas Red Line, Luas Green line and the Dart (if DU is build). Luas BXD and F and Metro West would also have joined it if they were built.

I'm not arguing for or against it, just against this idea that it's disconnected because it doesn't join Connolly or Heuston directly. Somehow, the Luas Green line manages to do very well even though it's *totally* disconnected.

Most of the critics of Metro North either do not understand it is part of a wider NETWORK providing an INTEGRATED TRANSPORT SYSTEM for Dublin or simply refuse to accept this reality - and insist on viewing it as a single, standalone line. Few have even looked at either the MN route map or the wider network map for T21.

The same applies to Dart Underground to a lesser degree with people still insisting the Phoenix Park Tunnel and the Luas Red line do the same thing - connect Heuston and Connolly. And also to the various other Luas lines and Metro West. However, I would add that Metro North will be much less effective if DartU is not built as DartU is the spine of the entire system - without DartU, the rest of the lines simply cannot and will not fulfill their potential.

I am blue in the face trying to explain this to people - many of whom simply won't listen because they have made up there minds based on what they have heard in the pub or on the radio or in Kevn Myers column or from a taxi driver. There is an abundance of detailed information on all these projects on the internet and elsewhere in the public domain if people really want to understand how Metro, Dart and Luas will benefit Dublin for decades into the future. But I fear most people simly couldn't be bothered looking for it.

DWCommuter wrote: »

Lets no get into the technical aspects because the political ones are far better when discussing these matters. MN and DU are separate projects due to a combination of political dick swinging and a complete failure to deal with the dinosaur that is CIE. I'm only scratching the surface, so forgive me. The depth of this issue would make longer and more interesting reading.

DWC

It was explained to me in the late-90s during the Luas debates that once CIE had become fixated with on-street ligh-rail as the best system for Dublin and had support from like-minded senior civil servants. This view became gospel because weak and/or disinterested politicians simply accepted it and would not question the thinking behind LRT. Those who did question the wisdom of LRT were simply dismissed and/or discredited. We are still paying a high price for all that today and will be for decades to come.

My own opinion is that if the original Dart plan had been resurrected in the mid-1990s and tweaked to give us the lines now in planning - Dart Underground (Docklands to Inchicore) and Metro North/Luas Green (Swords-Airport-City Centre-Bray along old Harcourt line) - there would have been less opposition and much more support for the plan. Also, at this stage, one would have hoped at least one would be operational and the other under construction. People are fixated on names without realising that essentially Metro and Dart do exactly the same thing - move people around the city very effectively and very efficiently. Only the silly politicking between CIE, govt and RPA gave us two systems with different gauges.

However, unfortunately we are where we are (I really, really hate that phrase), and Metro North and Dart Underground are the only game in town at this stage and we need to get behind them to ensure they are built as soon as possible given the current economic circumstances.

I would hope you would agree with me on that.

BrianD

markpb wrote: »

Where do people get this idea? It will join the Airport (which is now used as a BE intercharge), Luas Red Line, Luas Green line and the Dart (if DU is build). Luas BXD and F and Metro West would also have joined it if they were built.

I'm not arguing for or against it, just against this idea that it's disconnected because it doesn't join Connolly or Heuston directly. Somehow, the Luas Green line manages to do very well even though it's *totally* disconnected.

It's still an orphan line. Think of what it could have been. Of course it will have utility and usage like the Green and Red lines but it won't be maximised.

Combine the DU and MN - that means you would have to get rid of the quango that is the RPA.

Jack Noble - there's some good research out there on the LA metro and how building single lines weren't effective. Take a look at MN on an OS and you'll see the obvious problems and why it's a crock.

Jack Noble

BrianD wrote: »

It's still an orphan line. Think of what it could have been. Of course it will have utility and usage like the Green and Red lines but it won't be maximised.

Combine the DU and MN - that means you would have to get rid of the quango that is the RPA.

Jack Noble - there's some good research out there on the LA metro and how building single lines weren't effective. Take a look at MN on an OS and you'll see the obvious problems and why it's a crock.

BrianD,

I'm at a loss as to what you are saying.

How is Metro "an orphan line" considering the level of integration with other existing and planned Luas, Metro and Dart lines? It will only be an orphan if the other lines are not built. As it stands today, no T21 project has been abandoned.

All are in various stages of planning - delayed yes, abandoned no - and all will be built as and when funding becomes available. The Railway Orders have or will have a 10-year life span (15 years in the case of Metro West) so the decisions to build will lie with the next three or even four governments.

Metro North and Dart Underground are separate projects by separate bodies - the result of bad decisions by govt - but together they and the Luas lines create a network which links all the main transport hubs, business, commercial, retail and government districts, tourism, leisure and entertainment sites, two sports stadia, two universities, several hospitals and countless residential areas - and the airport.

There is no need to get rid of the RPA. Leave it to provide Metro and Luas lines while CIE should proceed with Dart. The two systems will still provide an integrated network. And may I point out that of the two organisations, the RPA has been the more successful of the two, has delivered two Luas lines and extensions and is far advanced with Metro North while Metro West and Luas BXD are at the same stage as Dart Underground - with Railway Order applications before An Bord Pleanala.

Dart Underground has been delayed by CIE/IR inertia over the last decade and the decision to go back to the drawing board and completely redesign the original Interconnector project from the mid-1990s/early-2000s. That has allowed the govt to delay it further by omitting the "tunnel element" from the four-year budget planning to 2014.

And why is Metro North "a crock"?

What route would you suggest that takes in as many major trip generators and provides as much transport integration as Metro North does - Swords, Airport, Dardistown (Metro West) Ballymun, DCU, Drumcondra (Dart1), Mater, OCS (Luas Red and Green/BXD) and SSG (Dart2 and Luas Green)?

Where do you suggest it should run? Much of it mirrors the original 1975 DRRTS (Dart) route from city centre to Ballymun - it has been simply updated with more stops to take into account development and growth of the northside of the city in the last four decades. That is exactly what has also been done with Dart Underground on the southside, BTW.

Metro North will only fail to realise its potential only if Dart Underground is not built but when both are operational, both will be a success and will transform Dublin and the way people move around the city.

DWCommuter

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Speaking of which, any progress on that book I understand you intend to release?

Delayed due to a legal issue. Can't say anymore unfortunately.

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

Most of the critics of Metro North either do not understand it is part of a wider NETWORK providing an INTEGRATED TRANSPORT SYSTEM for Dublin or simply refuse to accept this reality - and insist on viewing it as a single, standalone line. Few have even looked at either the MN route map or the wider network map for T21.

The same applies to Dart Underground to a lesser degree with people still insisting the Phoenix Park Tunnel and the Luas Red line do the same thing - connect Heuston and Connolly. And also to the various other Luas lines and Metro West. However, I would add that Metro North will be much less effective if DartU is not built as DartU is the spine of the entire system - without DartU, the rest of the lines simply cannot and will not fulfill their potential.

I am blue in the face trying to explain this to people - many of whom simply won't listen because they have made up there minds based on what they have heard in the pub or on the radio or in Kevn Myers column or from a taxi driver. There is an abundance of detailed information on all these projects on the internet and elsewhere in the public domain if people really want to understand how Metro, Dart and Luas will benefit Dublin for decades into the future. But I fear most people simly couldn't be bothered looking for it.



DWC

It was explained to me in the late-90s during the Luas debates that once CIE had become fixated with on-street ligh-rail as the best system for Dublin and had support from like-minded senior civil servants. This view became gospel because weak and/or disinterested politicians simply accepted it and would not question the thinking behind LRT. Those who did question the wisdom of LRT were simply dismissed and/or discredited. We are still paying a high price for all that today and will be for decades to come.

My own opinion is that if the original Dart plan had been resurrected in the mid-1990s and tweaked to give us the lines now in planning - Dart Underground (Docklands to Inchicore) and Metro North/Luas Green (Swords-Airport-City Centre-Bray along old Harcourt line) - there would have been less opposition and much more support for the plan. Also, at this stage, one would have hoped at least one would be operational and the other under construction. People are fixated on names without realising that essentially Metro and Dart do exactly the same thing - move people around the city very effectively and very efficiently. Only the silly politicking between CIE, govt and RPA gave us two systems with different gauges.

However, unfortunately we are where we are (I really, really hate that phrase), and Metro North and Dart Underground are the only game in town at this stage and we need to get behind them to ensure they are built as soon as possible given the current economic circumstances.

I would hope you would agree with me on that.

I generally agree. However the LRT debacle that started in the early 90s was actually due to a timid CIE conditioned by unimaginative Governments who refused to consider bank rolling the DART project. If one looks at the original LRT proposal, its nearly identical to the original DART plan from the 70s. I don't think it was a fixation. I think it was a cheaper alternative to attract Government support.

Jehuty42

DWCommuter wrote: »

Delayed due to a legal issue. Can't say anymore unfortunately.

Cool, best of luck with it, I'm sure it would be a great read.

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

BrianD,

I'm at a loss as to what you are saying.

How is Metro "an orphan line" considering the level of integration with other existing and planned Luas, Metro and Dart lines? It will only be an orphan if the other lines are not built. As it stands today, no T21 project has been abandoned.

All are in various stages of planning - delayed yes, abandoned no - and all will be built as and when funding becomes available. The Railway Orders have or will have a 10-year life span (15 years in the case of Metro West) so the decisions to build will lie with the next three or even four governments.

Metro North and Dart Underground are separate projects by separate bodies - the result of bad decisions by govt - but together they and the Luas lines create a network which links all the main transport hubs, business, commercial, retail and government districts, tourism, leisure and entertainment sites, two sports stadia, two universities, several hospitals and countless residential areas - and the airport.

There is no need to get rid of the RPA. Leave it to provide Metro and Luas lines while CIE should proceed with Dart. The two systems will still provide an integrated network. And may I point out that of the two organisations, the RPA has been the more successful of the two, has delivered two Luas lines and extensions and is far advanced with Metro North while Metro West and Luas BXD are at the same stage as Dart Underground - with Railway Order applications before An Bord Pleanala.

Dart Underground has been delayed by CIE/IR inertia over the last decade and the decision to go back to the drawing board and completely redesign the original Interconnector project from the mid-1990s/early-2000s. That has allowed the govt to delay it further by omitting the "tunnel element" from the four-year budget planning to 2014.

And why is Metro North "a crock"?

What route would you suggest that takes in as many major trip generators and provides as much transport integration as Metro North does - Swords, Airport, Dardistown (Metro West) Ballymun, DCU, Drumcondra (Dart1), Mater, OCS (Luas Red and Green/BXD) and SSG (Dart2 and Luas Green)?

Where do you suggest it should run? Much of it mirrors the original 1975 DRRTS (Dart) route from city centre to Ballymun - it has been simply updated with more stops to take into account development and growth of the northside of the city in the last four decades. That is exactly what has also been done with Dart Underground on the southside, BTW.

Metro North will only fail to realise its potential only if Dart Underground is not built but when both are operational, both will be a success and will transform Dublin and the way people move around the city.

Once again I generally agree with you, but we must realise the inherent risk at our door. There is a chance that history will repeat itself and DU will be shelved completely, leaving MN as the aforementioned orphan. There is a habit in Irish politics of reinventing the wheel after years and years of procrastination.

Jack Noble

DWCommuter wrote: »

Once again I generally agree with you, but we must realise the inherent risk at our door. There is a chance that history will repeat itself and DU will be shelved completely, leaving MN as the aforementioned orphan. There is a habit in Irish politics of reinventing the wheel after years and years of procrastination.

That is my big fear when I hear the likes of Gilmore and Costello spoofing around the projects for their own populist reasons. Neither had been briefed on Metro North by the RPA/DoT the last time I checked (before Christmas) - unlike FG whose most senior frontbenchers (Reilly and Noonan) have received detailed briefings on the project.

Gilmore is coming out with whatever guff he thinks people want to hear and may garner a few extra votes for Labour - ie, shove back Metro North - without any thought or concern for the long-term consequences of what he is saying.

Costello's is Labour's Transport spokesman but appears to be opposing DartU and MetroN for his own narrow NIMBY reasons in his north inner city and East Wall backyards. He should be removed from Transport before the election because he clearly has created a massive conflict of interest with regard to Metro North and, more worringly, Dart Underground.

Hopefully, the wiser heads in Labour who will be around the Cabinet table if they get into govt with FG - Quinn, Burton, Rabbitte - will prevail on these projects and other policies Gilmore has spoofed on. If he doesn't get Finance, Ruairi Quinn would be an excellent choice for Transport because he actually understands urban planning, transportation and development.

Aard

markpb wrote: »

Where do people get this idea? It will join the Airport (which is now used as a BE intercharge), Luas Red Line, Luas Green line and the Dart (if DU is build). Luas BXD and F and Metro West would also have joined it if they were built.

I'm not arguing for or against it, just against this idea that it's disconnected because it doesn't join Connolly or Heuston directly. Somehow, the Luas Green line manages to do very well even though it's *totally* disconnected.

People think it's disconnected because they imagine it will be just as it is now with regards to ticketing: to travel on MN, you will require a seperate ticket.

IMO, the RPA should really be pushing the idea of IT, because without it the thought of a "standalone" metro will proliferate.

Jack Noble

Aard wrote: »

People think it's disconnected because they imagine it will be just as it is now with regards to ticketing: to travel on MN, you will require a seperate ticket.

IMO, the RPA should really be pushing the idea of IT, because without it the thought of a "standalone" metro will proliferate.

No you won't - Integrated ticketing will be operational by 2017 when Metro begins running.

Metro and Luas are RPA projects so even if IT is not up and running with Dart and Dublin Bus, you will still be able to get a single Metro/Luas ticket from Swords or the airport or any MetroN stop to Tallaght, Heuston, The Point, Dundrum and Cherrywood or vice versa by changing at either Abbey St or SSG - just as today you can get a ticket from anywhere on the Red Line or Green Lines at any stop on either line but have to walk from Abbey St from SSG or VV to use it.

Aard

@Jack Noble:
I myself know that you won't need a seperate ticket, but everyone I've spoken to about it has thought so. I'd wager that most people in the city think that too.

Jack Noble

Aard wrote: »

@Jack Noble:
I myself know that you won't need a seperate ticket, but everyone I've spoken to about it has thought so. I'd wager that most people in the city think that too.

I would expect the RPA to ramp up marketing Metro North when the final PPP bid is in, when construction begins and when the finished line is about to become operational.

And the same for Irish Rail when it comes to Dart Underground.

Integrated ticketing will in common use by then - 2017-2020.

Wild Bill

Jack Noble wrote: »

I would expect the RPA to ramp up marketing Metro North when the final PPP bid is in, when construction begins and when the finished line is about to become operational.

And the same for Irish Rail when it comes to Dart Underground.

Integrated ticketing will in common use by then - 2017-2020.

That would be the integrated ticketing that was originally planned to be in place by 1997?

BrianD

Jack Noble wrote: »

I would expect the RPA to ramp up marketing Metro North when the final PPP bid is in, when construction begins and when the finished line is about to become operational.

And the same for Irish Rail when it comes to Dart Underground.

Integrated ticketing will in common use by then - 2017-2020.

Well aren't do doing a wonderful job! Perhaps the real reason that they are unwilling to bring further attention it and awkward questions may arise. I'm in favour of public transport and would be generally be favourable towards new initiatives but can see that this ones a dud. Despite their clout, They have been unable to persuade the two most prolific and informed writers on thos topic in the papers - Myers and McDonald. They want to ramp up their marketing and public information pretty fast or they'll lose the general public.

The RPA don't have a great record in project delivery (Green and Red line construction) and they've been kicking about this integrated ticketing for 9 years. We should have this already but HP are only getting a sniff at it since last April. In the RPA FAQ they state "there is no system in existence that meets the requirements of the Irish market. " WTF? If there are "ecumenical issues" they should publicly state this, suspend the project and hand it back to the responsible minister.

It makes far much more sense and delivers more utility and value to Dublin to maximise our existing rail network through the construction of the DU and related projects (e.g.signaling). Then we can move onto other projects.

In the interim, Dublin Airport is well served by bus routes which can be expanded. Swords and Lissenhall are 5km from existing rail lines. It wouldn't take much to devise a local bus network feeding into the northern line from Swords. Not unlike that happens in Germany to outer suburbs served by S Bahns. Ballymun and DCU could be served by a surface tram route. Plenty of available options without spending on a white elephant that is Metro North.

Wild Bill

the two most prolific and informed writers on thos topic in the papers - Myers and McDonald.

OK. Tell me you're taking the piss? Seriously.

Jack Noble

BrianD wrote: »

Well aren't do doing a wonderful job! Perhaps the real reason that they are unwilling to bring further attention it and awkward questions may arise. I'm in favour of public transport and would be generally be favourable towards new initiatives but can see that this ones a dud. Despite their clout, They have been unable to persuade the two most prolific and informed writers on thos topic in the papers - Myers and McDonald. They want to ramp up their marketing and public information pretty fast or they'll lose the general public.

It is the govt's job to sell Metro North through the RPA. There is no need to do that yet until the final PPP bids are in and the price of the project is known. That will begin this summer/autumn when the cost details are known and the CBA updated. Only then will a decision be taken on whether the project proceeds or not. If it goes ahead, then expect the major PR offensive, not before. Plenty of information is available on RPA and T21 websites for anyone interested in understanding Metro and Luas projects.

The idea that McDonald and Myers are essential to that is laughable. McDonald has taken a dogmatic stance on the project since the start and cannot be persuaded - it would be like trying to persuade Ruairi Ó Bradaigh to accept the Good Friday Agreement. Myers is an eccentric loon who will never be taken seriously by anyone other than eccentric loons.

The RPA don't have a great record in project delivery (Green and Red line construction) and they've been kicking about this integrated ticketing for 9 years. We should have this already but HP are only getting a sniff at it since last April. In the RPA FAQ they state "there is no system in existence that meets the requirements of the Irish market. " WTF? If there are "ecumenical issues" they should publicly state this, suspend the project and hand it back to the responsible minister.

The RPA has delivered Red and Green Luas lines and two extensions with a third under construction, while also bringing Metro North to RO stage and Metro West and Luas BXD to RO application stage before ABP. All were delivered on time and on budget.

I agree that the Integrated Ticketing project is a fiasco but much of that is down to govt failure to knock heads together at RPA, Dub Bus and IE to ensure the project is delivered. Govt policy and lack of direction is as much to blame as petty game-playing by various state agencies. But we should see IT later this year. Better late than never, I say.

It makes far much more sense and delivers more utility and value to Dublin to maximise our existing rail network through the construction of the DU and related projects (e.g.signaling). Then we can move onto other projects.

DU is not ready to proceed and won't be for at least two years thanks to Irish Rail. It has had DU/Interconnector on drawing board since 1995 but only decided two years ago to completely redesign the entire project. That is what has caused the delay to DU.

In the interim, Dublin Airport is well served by bus routes which can be expanded. Swords and Lissenhall are 5km from existing rail lines. It wouldn't take much to devise a local bus network feeding into the northern line from Swords. Not unlike that happens in Germany to outer suburbs served by S Bahns. Ballymun and DCU could be served by a surface tram route. Plenty of available options without spending on a white elephant that is Metro North.

Metro North will not be a white elephant. What evidence have you to support that frankly daft statement? It will serve more major trip generators than any other line in the city. And given the success of the two Luas lines, it will be even more successful and popular as Luas given that it serves areas hitherto unserved by rapid rail.

Two generations of transport planners have recommended a rapid rail system to serve North Dublin city and the northern suburbs (1975 and 2001), yet random geniuses on the internet seem to know better. Guess what? You don't and the last 10 years have proved that.

On street Luas was a mistake and a very expensive one at that. It simply does not have the capacity to serve demand-led growth. Both lines are now at peak capacity and there is no scope for expansion.

There is also no room for surface Luas lines in north Dublin city - that is why the Ballymun Luas line was abandoned in 1999/2000. And that is why Luas is going underground in the city centre as Metro North. But because it is totally segregated from all other traffic, there is plenty of scope for expansion as demand dictates. The system is being built for the future - not just now.

Metro North will be ready to begin construction this time next year - that is why it will go ahead if the final PPP tender is deemed affordable and acceptable by govt.

When will Dart Underground - which I agree is the most important single transport project for Dublin - be ready to proceed to construction?

Jack Noble

Wild Bill wrote: »

OK. Tell me you're taking the piss? Seriously.

I did laugh at that line too.:rolleyes:

BrianD

Wild Bill wrote: »

OK. Tell me you're taking the piss? Seriously.

Will I wouldn't put Myers down as a regular transport writer but has been quite vocal on the topic. McDonald is a correspondent on this topic and is well versed.

Point is that if both of these individuals are so "misguided" on the topic you'd think that the RPA would go out of their way to educate them on the myths and facts. Two people, that's all and many more could be on side if they did.

I would tend to agree that Myers is ranting and happens to have hit the nail on the head. I've a lot of time for McDonald and particular his investigative work in the past.

So, seriously, I'm not taking the piss!

BrianD

Jack Noble wrote: »

It is the govt's job to sell Metro North through the RPA. There is no need to do that yet until the final PPP bids are in and the price of the project is known. That will begin this summer/autumn when the cost details are known and the CBA updated. Only then will a decision be taken on whether the project proceeds or not. If it goes ahead, then expect the major PR offensive, not before. Plenty of information is available on RPA and T21 websites for anyone interested in understanding Metro and Luas projects.

Yes usual old "wel'll have to wait for this and that " excuses. When can we have the facts from the body tasked in doing this?

The idea that McDonald and Myers are essential to that is laughable. McDonald has taken a dogmatic stance on the project since the start and cannot be persuaded - it would be like trying to persuade Ruairi Ó Bradaigh to accept the Good Friday Agreement. Myers is an eccentric loon who will never be taken seriously by anyone other than eccentric loons.

In my view mcDonald is right and Myers is a loon who happens to have got it right.

The RPA has delivered Red and Green Luas lines and two extensions with a third under construction, while also bringing Metro North to RO stage and Metro West and Luas BXD to RO application stage before ABP. All were delivered on time and on budget.

I don't agree with that and I don't believe the facts support this either. Leaving money aside, their delivery off the Red and Green lines was a fiasco.

I agree that the Integrated Ticketing project is a fiasco but much of that is down to govt failure to knock heads together at RPA, Dub Bus and IE to ensure the project is delivered. Govt policy and lack of direction is as much to blame as petty game-playing by various state agencies. But we should see IT later this year. Better late than never, I say.

Of course it was and they seemed to be in no rush to implement it. We've still got to wait till 2017?

Metro North will not be a white elephant. What evidence have you to support that frankly daft statement? It will serve more major trip generators than any other line in the city. And given the success of the two Luas lines, it will be even more successful and popular as Luas given that it serves areas hitherto unserved by rapid rail.

I would have though it was glaringly obvious why it's a white elephant. It will cost too much and will never achieve the passenger numbers that it is capable of doing. There are cheaper and better value alternatives.

Two generations of transport planners have recommended a rapid rail system to serve North Dublin city and the northern suburbs (1975 and 2001), yet random geniuses on the internet seem to know better. Guess what? You don't and the last 10 years have proved that.

Unfortunately, 2 generations of politicians with their short term thinking combined with corruption have made this recommendation impractical. Look at a map and look at the densities. I'm sure you're familiar with the route and even you must scratch your head and say how on earth will this ever justify itself.

On street Luas was a mistake and a very expensive one at that. It simply does not have the capacity to serve demand-led growth. Both lines are now at peak capacity and there is no scope for expansion.

I thought that they were delivered under budget? At capacity? Definitely not. Busy at rush hour, quiet otherwise on the Green line at least. Expansion? There is little scope for any serious expansion along the original lines. Any future capacity issues are going to come from the RPA's, frankly stupid policy, of allowing the lines to lengthened to suit property developers who pay levies.

There is also no room for surface Luas lines in north Dublin city - that is why the Ballymun Luas line was abandoned in 1999/2000. And that is why Luas is going underground in the city centre as Metro North. But because it is totally segregated from all other traffic, there is plenty of scope for expansion as demand dictates. The system is being built for the future - not just now.

I beg to differ. Plenty of opportunity. For example, old Broadstone alignment can be used with on street. In any case, irrespective of MN there are still plans to introduce more tram lines into the city centre.

As far for the future? They say a railway line will change the area along it for 100 hundred years. Looks like we'll have to wait 100 years to see the type of numbers the RPA are stating they can carry on MN.

Metro North will be ready to begin construction this time next year - that is why it will go ahead if the final PPP tender is deemed affordable and acceptable by govt.

When will Dart Underground - which I agree is the most important single transport project for Dublin - be ready to proceed to construction?

I presume DU will go ahead when they get the dosh. Pretty similar situation to MN.

Jack Noble

BrianD wrote: »

Yes usual old "wel'll have to wait for this and that " excuses. When can we have the facts from the body tasked in doing this?

It is a competitive PPP tender - when the process is in we will know the figures. That has always been the case since the day the project was launched. If the project is affordable it will proceed, if not it won't. Why will people not accept the concept of a competitive tender process?

In my view mcDonald is right and Myers is a loon who happens to have got it right.

McDonald is wrong on practically every count re Metro. He has never been able to back up his assertions with hard facts. He is a fanatic and his dogmatic views have clouded Irish Times coverage of Metro. Myers ranting in Indo is embarrassing it is so inaccurate. The only fact he had in four columns was the name of the project.

I don't agree with that and I don't believe the facts support this either. Leaving money aside, their delivery off the Red and Green lines was a fiasco.

The facts do support it. Delays and cost runs to the original Luas lines were down to govt dithering and changing aspects of the project - not the RPA. It did it's job. How exactly where their delivery of the lines a fiasco?

Of course it was and they seemed to be in no rush to implement it. We've still got to wait till 2017?

Again govt (DoT) ballsed up IT. CIE as much responsible as RPA.

I would have though it was glaringly obvious why it's a white elephant. It will cost too much and will never achieve the passenger numbers that it is capable of doing. There are cheaper and better value alternatives.

Of course it will meet passenger demand. The same was said about Dart and Luas before they were built. The naysayers were proved spectacularly wrong on all accounts. And still they never learn.

Unfortunately, 2 generations of politicians with their short term thinking combined with corruption have made this recommendation impractical. Look at a map and look at the densities. I'm sure you're familiar with the route and even you must scratch your head and say how on earth will this ever justify itself.

Metro North travels through areas with higher densities than either the existing Dart line, the ttwo Luas lines and the proposed Dart lines. FGS, half of Dart's current catchment area is Dublin Bay. Again, Metro naysayers ignore that.

I thought that they were delivered under budget? At capacity? Definitely not. Busy at rush hour, quiet otherwise on the Green line at least. Expansion? There is little scope for any serious expansion along the original lines. Any future capacity issues are going to come from the RPA's, frankly stupid policy, of allowing the lines to lengthened to suit property developers who pay levies.

Luas is at peak capacity on both lines. That is when capacity is required. The whole point of these systems is to move people around when they need to be moved around - morning and evening rush hours. Luas is at capacity during those times. That is why there is no room for growth.

I beg to differ. Plenty of opportunity. For example, old Broadstone alignment can be used with on street. In any case, irrespective of MN there are still plans to introduce more tram lines into the city centre.

So the idea is find somewhere we can put a surface line rather than serve areas that need high capacity rapid transit? That approach makes no economic or transport sense. A crayon and a map do not make for good planning.

As far for the future? They say a railway line will change the area along it for 100 hundred years. Looks like we'll have to wait 100 years to see the type of numbers the RPA are stating they can carry on MN.

I would expect to see it within 10 to 20 years once the economy is back on track. So do the planners.
[
QUOTE]
I presume DU will go ahead when they get the dosh. Pretty similar situation to MN.[/QUOTE]

DU is being delivered the exact same way as Metro North - PPP. And the process will involve the same confidentiality as the Metro PPP - unless the next govt decides to fund it direct from the exchequer coffers. Anyway, it will be up to the next govt to decide whether to bring DU back inside the 2011-2014 funding envelope once DU gets a railway order from ABP sometime in mid to late 2012.

DWCommuter

How exactly where their delivery of the lines a fiasco?

I'll give you one example Jack. When they assumed control of the luas project, they must have known that 30 metre units on the red line was a bad joke. While they eventually ordered the extensions, they blatantly and stubbornly insisted that 30 metre units were fine. They did this in the print media and on radio.

Mr. Ger Hannon of the RPA called any suggestion that 40 metre units were needed on the red line, "nonsense". When the units were lengthened he still insisted that he was right at the time. Now thats a fiasco. Thankfully we don't here much from him these days.

Jack Noble

DWCommuter wrote: »

I'll give you one example Jack. When they assumed control of the luas project, they must have known that 30 metre units on the red line was a bad joke. While they eventually ordered the extensions, they blatantly and stubbornly insisted that 30 metre units were fine. They did this in the print media and on radio.

Mr. Ger Hannon of the RPA called any suggestion that 40 metre units were needed on the red line, "nonsense". When the units were lengthened he still insisted that he was right at the time. Now thats a fiasco. Thankfully we don't here much from him these days.

DWC

Fair point. I remember that at the time - RPA claimed too many twists and road junctions on Red Line for longer trams and that usage would be lower than on the Green Line. They were proved wrong on both counts and changed tack - although the handling of it was appalling. It shows that they were too conservative in their passenger predictions for Luas - something some people claim RPA are still doing with growth and usage predictions for Metro North (Fingal and Dub City councils, for example).

From what I can see the lessons have been learned from the initial Luas projects and RPA does things a lot differently now. One of the reasons there is so much growth and expansion potential in the two Metro projects is that the lessons of Luas capacity constraint have been understood and taken on board by RPA.

To be fair to RPA - which people are - there were many problems with the initial Luas lines, most of which where not of there making, some of which were - but the projects were still delivered on time and within budget. Operations have been pretty smooth since, despite the odd clitch, the lines are profitable and the extensions have also come in on time and within budget.

The RPA has grown into the role over the last decade and is proving itself to be an efficient and effective organisation - unlike Irish Rail which is only now beginning to get things rights but is still moving at torturously slow pace.

IR has one major project to deliver in Dublin while RPA has half a dozen of varying scales - which in your opinion is doing the better job?

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

IR has one major project to deliver in Dublin while RPA has half a dozen of varying scales - which in your opinion is doing the better job?

As much as I don't need to restate my criticism of Irish Rail, I think it's a little unfair to be drawing parallels between them and the RPA. It was this mindset that created the RPA in the first place and ultimately pushed us in the direction of the disjointed mess we have. Creating the RPA did not solve the problem. It exasperated it. The creation of the NTA even added to the problem. Nobody seems to know who's responsible for anything.

Lets be realistic. The RPA have one major project. The others are no hopers who's various stages of planning, design etc. keep the RPA in jobs. That one major project, MN, is a Government pet project. DU isn't and never was. In 2003, while the Government were creating the RPA and salivating over a Dublin Metro, DU or the interconnector as it was known then wasn't on the Government radar even though they were accutely aware of it.

The problem ultimately boils down to a situation where the development of Dublins public transport projects has now turned into a competitive game. In that scenario to say that IR or the RPA are better than the other is distasteful and symptomatic of the underlying problem in the city.

Jack Noble

DWCommuter wrote: »

As much as I don't need to restate my criticism of Irish Rail, I think it's a little unfair to be drawing parallels between them and the RPA. It was this mindset that created the RPA in the first place and ultimately pushed us in the direction of the disjointed mess we have. Creating the RPA did not solve the problem. It exasperated it. The creation of the NTA even added to the problem. Nobody seems to know who's responsible for anything.

Lets be realistic. The RPA have one major project. The others are no hopers who's various stages of planning, design etc. keep the RPA in jobs. That one major project, MN, is a Government pet project. DU isn't and never was. In 2003, while the Government were creating the RPA and salivating over a Dublin Metro, DU or the interconnector as it was known then wasn't on the Government radar even though they were accutely aware of it.

The problem ultimately boils down to a situation where the development of Dublins public transport projects has now turned into a competitive game. In that scenario to say that IR or the RPA are better than the other is distasteful and symptomatic of the underlying problem in the city.

DWC

Can't disagree with much of that but this is all a massive failure of government - or more accurately, Bertie Ahern's style of government where everything was farmed out to a quango or kicked to the long grass, vested interests were indulged instead of taken on, and every sector or interest group was bought off with a little here, a little there.

We are all paying a very high price for this now and Dublin transport is only a small fraction of that.

I would disagree with you that all other RPA projects are 'no hopers'. They will get ROs and I would expect as things improve economically, that they will be built but probably in the 2015-2025/30 timeframe with DU built 2014/15 to 2020/21. But everything hangs on Metro North going ahead.

On DU, it really is up to IR and other backers to convince the new govt of the absolute necessity of the project. If Metro North goes ahead, I believe it will strengthen the case for DU rather than weaken it. If Metro is axed later this year by the new govt, then I believe it will also sound the death knell for DU and every other project.

Ultimately, CIE/IR are the authors of their own misfortune here because they dumped Dart in favour of LRT, then lost Luas to the RPA because of their internal problems, then brought Dart back on the agenda, got it approved by govt and then went back to design from scratch again, delaying it even further and giving a future govt the opportunity to kill it off if it so desires.

With hindsight - useless as it is - CIE/IR would have been much better resurrecting Dart in the mid-1990s with north-south and east-west lines underground through the city along the corridors now planned for MetroN/LuasGreen and Dart Underground. Dart would have been easier to sell to the public and politicians during the boom years as they would simply have seen it as an extension of what we have rather than a massive new project with a name (Metro) that conjours delusions of granduer in some minds.

But, like in the 1980s, another opportunity was lost due a combination of dogmatism, dithering, cute-hoorism and a lack of ambition and vision. I just hope it won't be lost again due to more short-sighted political decisions and mickey-swinging by various politicians, civil servants and RPA/CIE officials.

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

But, like in the 1980s, another opportunity was lost due a combination of dogmatism, dithering, cute-hoorism and a lack of ambition and vision. I just hope it won't be lost again due to more short-sighted political decisions and mickey-swinging by various politicians, civil servants and RPA/CIE officials.

Unfortunately I draw the wrath of people because I hold the belief that the opportunity will be lost. The reason? I have seen absolutely no change in the political attitude, the dealings with CIE or the creation of quangos. Despite the wealth very little was achieved. Railway orders and planning and design are easy when you have the money to throw at them. They create an illusion that we couldn't afford to create in the 80s. However delivering the projects looks increasingly beyond the ability of the Irish political brain. The planned DTA has turned into the farce that is now the NTA. Its all fudging and theres a lot more ahead. A lot of what we did get was driven by developers and their hosing estates and office blocks. Luas extensions and Clonsilla - Pace are prime examples.

I hope I'm wrong and if the TBMs go into the ground for MN, I'd be the first to stand up and admit I was wrong even though personally I wanted to see DU done first or even in tandem and would retain the fear that MN would exhaust any semblance of political will and render it an incomplete system. For generations this country has been wronged in terms of public transport. We now stand at the precipice of another potential disaster. Another chapter in the horror story of Dublin transport.

FreudianSlippers

I'm sorry, but I thought MN construction was beginning April this year? Or is that preliminary groundworks?

donvito99

BrianD wrote: »

As far for the future? They say a railway line will change the area along it for 100 hundred years. Looks like we'll have to wait 100 years to see the type of numbers the RPA are stating they can carry on MN.

I wouldn't mind.

MN should be viewed upon completion, after we're through the preliminary stages of this mess. I'd like to know the population of Dublin in not even 100 years, more like 25. By then we'll be back on our feet, and demand for a route like this will be substantial.

Wild Bill

Mr McDonald is an ideologue, as is Myers.

The former a Greenie elitist and the latter an anti-Irish troll.

McDonald is a religious fundamentalist in his opposition to rail underground or roads overground; is a nitwit who can eulogise Barcelona centre vis a vis Dublin without once mentioning it's vast network of motorways that make the centre possible...etcetera etcetera. (I could write a book on his flawed analogies).

Myers is a twit who have mined a seam of Unionist/Blueshirt populism way past the point of exhaustion.

Neither is an advocate of building any worthwhile physical infrastructure in this country.

Cool Mo D

Some of you might be interested in this, just released by Irish Rail: http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_route_project2.asp

DWCommuter

Wild Bill wrote: »

Mr McDonald is an ideologue, as is Myers.

The former a Greenie elitist and the latter an anti-Irish troll.

McDonald is a religious fundamentalist in his opposition to rail underground or roads overground; is a nitwit who can eulogise Barcelona centre vis a vis Dublin without once mentioning it's vast network of motorways that make the centre possible...etcetera etcetera. (I could write a book on his flawed analogies).

Myers is a twit who have mined a seam of Unionist/Blueshirt populism way past the point of exhaustion.

Neither is an advocate of building any worthwhile physical infrastructure in this country.

With respect Wild Bill, I appreciate your opinion, but why don't you offer some definitive opinion on matters? Merely expressing an opinion on two particular commentators is hardly constructive in the absence of your own views on the matters at hand. Personally I'd love to hear what you have to say that is contrary to Myers and McDonald.