DART+ (DART Expansion)

roadmaster

MJohnston wrote: »

Yes, that's correct. No room in the PPT for it. Which is why I've been very curious about hybrid trains recently, as it would mean short gaps like that wouldn't matter.

I wonder will we see no cables from the northern side of the tunnel to the tie in with the Connolly and dock lands lines. It would certainly save a few quid

Rulmeq

MJohnston wrote: »

Yes, that's correct. No room in the PPT for it. Which is why I've been very curious about hybrid trains recently, as it would mean short gaps like that wouldn't matter.

Do you know if they are able to switch from Diesel to electric on the fly? I would have expected them to require modification to work with either?

Telchak

Rulmeq wrote: »

Do you know if they are able to switch from Diesel to electric on the fly? I would have expected them to require modification to work with either?

I think it's bi-mode trains, rather than hybrid, that are what they're looking at. Catenaries lower, and a small diesel locomotive kicks in.

Sam Russell

Telchak wrote: »

I think it's no bi-mode trains, rather than hybrid, that are what they're looking at. Catenaries lower, and a small diesel locomotive kicks in.

The trams in Nice lower their catenaries at a stop and proceed on batteries and raise the catenaries at the next stop. I would imagine the train would need to be stationary while it changed over.

Telchak

Sam Russell wrote: »

The trams in Nice lower their catenaries at a stop and proceed on batteries and raise the catenaries at the next stop. I would imagine the train would need to be stationary while it changed over.

I wonder would there be the clearance in the tunnel for an overhead rail to push the catenaries down, but just without the associated electrical infrastructure.

prunudo

Sam Russell wrote: »

The trams in Nice lower their catenaries at a stop and proceed on batteries and raise the catenaries at the next stop. I would imagine the train would need to be stationary while it changed over.

I think this was what happened in London's Paddington station during the week. They were testing a Hitachi bimode train and when it raised the catenaries up, they got snagged in the overhead wires and pulled a lot of them down.

L1011

Raising and lowering the pantograph happens daily in Fairview without issue. Snagging sounds more like it was raised before going under wires really

Idbatterim

has there been any consideration been given to extending DU to poolbeg?

bk

Idbatterim wrote: »

has there been any consideration been given to extending DU to poolbeg?

Red Luas line is planned to be extended there.

Poolbeg wouldn't make sense for the alignment of DU.

Ireland trains

Was reading a NTA pdf and it said eletrification will take place to Hazelhatch but possibly further.
Does this mean they are considering electrifying the line as far as kildare/portlaiose

When the line to drogheda is eletrified will trains to drogheda be branded as DART or commuter.

prunudo

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/office-plan-scrapped-to-facilitate-shelved-dart-underground-1.3519360%3fmode=amp

Saw this yesterday, thought it may be of interest. Its good to see that they're keeping the site from development even though the project isn't on the radar yet.

thebsharp

There is room in PPT for electrification or so I've been advised on several occasions.

It's proposed to go from Hazelhatch to Connolly at first but ultimately electrification is intended to extend to Sallins and further again. it's whether this happens as part of intercity electrification to Cork, or further DART expansion. The type of electrification chosen will partly determine this.

Raising and lower the pantograph is common, particularly around Paris where they have two electrification systems in place, 25kv ac and 1500 v dc. However, it is heavy on the OHLE so is not ideal for maintenance reasons.

To Drogheda will be called DART

dublinman1990

The plans for the Liffey bridge are now put on hold because of impact on DU.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/plans-for-liffey-bridge-derailed-by-dart-underground-scheme-1.3746924

Dats me

Is intercity electrification why they're not electrifying the new DART lines before buying the new rolling stock?

Iarnród Éireann's 2030 vision document said electrification is only €500k/km which seems super cheap to not be doing right now, but do they want to do AC intercity (including the DART lines) electrification so they're waiting until the 22000 need to be replaced?

prunudo

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The plans for the Liffey bridge are now put on hold because of impact on DU.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/plans-for-liffey-bridge-derailed-by-dart-underground-scheme-1.3746924

Apologises, that was actually the article I meant to link to earlier, I messed up the links.

Ireland trains

I suppose the first intercity line to electrify would be Dublin to Belfast because the line would allready be eletric to drogheda.
Then Cork would be second as it is the premier line and would mean that further eletrification (eg Galway/Limerick) would be already half done.
Will irish rail ever eletrify cork suburban services.

loyatemu

Ireland trains wrote: »

I suppose the first intercity line to electrify would be Dublin to Belfast because the line would allready be eletric to drogheda.
Then Cork would be second as it is the premier line and would mean that further eletrification (eg Galway/Limerick) would be already half done.
Will irish rail ever eletrify cork suburban services.

if they were electrify long distance lines, I don't think they'd use the Dart 1500V system.

cgcsb

I'd imagine Cork commuter rail will be done as part of the Dub-Cork intercity, since half of Cork commuter rail shares the route anyway adding a few extra kms means a minimal impact on cost. I would think surely AC would be used, whether that means retrofitting current DART line or having special trains that can operate on both ac and dc using the old DART route will be the matter of some operational debate.

I would think Sallins surely needs to be electrified and covered by DART since the trains currently do Sallins to GCD. The rest of the intercity routes should be operated by hybrid trains. The increased speed should increase pax numbers and increase rail's % intercity share. A great boon in reducing emissions from transport.

riddlinrussell

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd imagine Cork commuter rail will be done as part of the Dub-Cork intercity, since half of Cork commuter rail shares the route anyway adding a few extra kms means a minimal impact on cost. I would think surely AC would be used, whether that means retrofitting current DART line or having special trains that can operate on both ac and dc using the old DART route will be the matter of some operational debate.

I would think Sallins surely needs to be electrified and covered by DART since the trains currently do Sallins to GCD. The rest of the intercity routes should be operated by hybrid trains. The increased speed should increase pax numbers and increase rail's % intercity share. A great boon in reducing emissions from transport.

It's rare to see a GCD train coming through Sallins, and when they do they are coming from Newbridge, not originating in Sallins, majority of GCD trains seem to start at Hazelhatch and wait for the Sallins train to come in in the mornings before pulling away.

I'd imagine GCD from Hazelhatch timetabled to pick up Sallins commuters would be a more likely scenario, probably with Hazelhatch being the last stop to Heuston for Sallins trains once the line is electrified.

Ireland trains

In maby 10 years time (or more cause its irish rail) the intercity services should be somthing like this (in my opinion)

Dublin to:
Cork 1 tph (all mk4) average 2h, 15m
Express-1 ex Cork, 1 ex Dub - 2h
Possibly a second train every 2 hours (fast

Galway
1 tph (4-6 icr) average 1h, 55
Express ex Galway, morning - 1h, 45

Waterford
1 tp2h (5-7 icr) average 1h, 45
Express ex waterford, morning - 1h, 30
Posssibly build a kilkenny parkway station on the loop

Belfast
1 tph + 1tp2h (new fleet) average 1h, 45
Express ex bel (mor), ex dub 1h, 30

Dublin to Sligo, rosslare, tralee, westport, limerick - 1tp2h

Idbatterim

It's rare to see a GCD train coming through Sallins, and when they do they are coming from Newbridge, not originating in Sallins, majority of GCD trains seem to start at Hazelhatch and wait for the Sallins train to come in in the mornings before pulling away.

I'd imagine GCD from Hazelhatch timetabled to pick up Sallins commuters would be a more likely scenario, probably with Hazelhatch being the last stop to Heuston for Sallins trains once the line is electrified.

battery technology is improving so quick and dropping in price so quick per kwh, that surely on the timeline we are discussing here, it will be possible to have pure electric power? i.e. battery for the sections with no overhead wires?

tubbs26

riddlinrussell wrote: »

It's rare to see a GCD train coming through Sallins, and when they do they are coming from Newbridge, not originating in Sallins, majority of GCD trains seem to start at Hazelhatch and wait for the Sallins train to come in in the mornings before pulling away.

I'd imagine GCD from Hazelhatch timetabled to pick up Sallins commuters would be a more likely scenario, probably with Hazelhatch being the last stop to Heuston for Sallins trains once the line is electrified.

I commute from Hazelhatch. With electrification in mind does anyone think it would make sense to have all commuter services from Portlaoise stop at Hazelhatch then proceed non stop to Heuston.

Anyone wishing to to travel to Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest could use the Hazelhatch to GCD service. This service could be electrified.

The main positive would be quicker journeys for the Portlaoise commuter service to Heuston and busier Hazelatch to GCD services.

The only downside would be people from Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest would not be able to travel to Hueston. Although if the Hesuton west station was built on the Hazelhatch to GCD line it would lessen the impact.

I would be interested to here peoples thoughts

Dats me

tubbs26 wrote: »

I commute from Hazelhatch. With electrification in mind does anyone think it would make sense to have all commuter services from Portlaoise stop at Hazelhatch then proceed non stop to Heuston.

Anyone wishing to to travel to Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest could use the Hazelhatch to GCD service. This service could be electrified.

The main positive would be quicker journeys for the Portlaoise commuter service to Heuston and busier Hazelatch to GCD services.

The only downside would be people from Adamstown, Clondalkin and Parkwest would not be able to travel to Hueston. Although if the Hesuton west station was built on the Hazelhatch to GCD line it would lessen the impact.

I would be interested to here peoples thoughts

I would agree with that certainly, particularly if you could get DARTs every 10 minutes from Hazelhatch.

Dats me

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd imagine Cork commuter rail will be done as part of the Dub-Cork intercity, since half of Cork commuter rail shares the route anyway adding a few extra kms means a minimal impact on cost. I would think surely AC would be used, whether that means retrofitting current DART line or having special trains that can operate on both ac and dc using the old DART route will be the matter of some operational debate.

I would think Sallins surely needs to be electrified and covered by DART since the trains currently do Sallins to GCD. The rest of the intercity routes should be operated by hybrid trains. The increased speed should increase pax numbers and increase rail's % intercity share. A great boon in reducing emissions from transport.

Do you think the length of time it will take to plan this is why they're not electrifying the lines and buying purely EMUs for the new DART stock? Given electrification is only €500k/km it doesn't seem to make sense not to electrify the GDA now unless they're waiting for an intercity electrification plan to do all the electrification in one go or at least that the GDA bit would be compatible with the rest.

cgcsb

Ireland trains wrote: »

In maby 10 years time (or more cause its irish rail) the intercity services should be somthing like this (in my opinion)

Dublin to:
Cork 1 tph (all mk4) average 2h, 15m
Express-1 ex Cork, 1 ex Dub - 2h
Possibly a second train every 2 hours (fast

Galway
1 tph (4-6 icr) average 1h, 55
Express ex Galway, morning - 1h, 45

Waterford
1 tp2h (5-7 icr) average 1h, 45
Express ex waterford, morning - 1h, 30
Posssibly build a kilkenny parkway station on the loop

Belfast
1 tph + 1tp2h (new fleet) average 1h, 45
Express ex bel (mor), ex dub 1h, 30

Dublin to Sligo, rosslare, tralee, westport, limerick - 1tp2h

Surely electrification will provide better timings than that?
Speeds of 225km/h-250km/h should be achieved. That'd be Dub-Cork in 90 mins standard with faster express services. At present we have a service that runs at a max of 160km/hr and completes the distance in 2hr15.

Also when journey times plummet, expect demand to rocket. If it takes less than half the time to do Dub-Cork by train than by driving yourself, you can expect a large modal shift. The door-to-door utility of driving is diminshed if you can save well over an hour of a journey. Increased demand should bring Dub-Cork services to half hourly (average wait time of 15 mins). Such a service would make even continental Europeans blush, but are CIÉ capable of running such a thing?

cgcsb

Dats me wrote: »

Do you think the length of time it will take to plan this is why they're not electrifying the lines and buying purely EMUs for the new DART stock? Given electrification is only €500k/km it doesn't seem to make sense not to electrify the GDA now unless they're waiting for an intercity electrification plan to do all the electrification in one go or at least that the GDA bit would be compatible with the rest.

I would say that the systems have to be inter-operable, even if the GDA electrification is done a long time before inter-city it doesn't make sense to have parallel systems.

Also I'd envisage a simplification of commuter rail into Simply DART branded services. So say for arguments sake Maynooth-Docklands operates every 15 minutes but every third service operates all the way to Mullingar, with the outer part of that journey done under diesel power.

thebsharp

cgcsb wrote: »

I would say that the systems have to be inter-operable, even if the GDA electrification is done a long time before inter-city it doesn't make sense to have parallel systems.

Also I'd envisage a simplification of commuter rail into Simply DART branded services. So say for arguments sake Maynooth-Docklands operates every 15 minutes but every third service operates all the way to Mullingar, with the outer part of that journey done under diesel power.

The need for broader plan is exactly why they haven't commenced. There was an electrification plan around 2011 but it relied on DART Underground which created two segregated corridors. The network is now more complex and needs interoperability between the various lines. The costs involved are pretty huge. A standard EMU rolling stock unit costs about €2m and a Battery EMU can be plus 30-40%. Ideally only one electrification system will be in place. A.C. would allow better integration for the future intercity network and is cheaper to build and operate. However, we've 50km of existing DC that works perfectly fine for the GDA that we'd have to convert. There's no easy solution

thebsharp

cgcsb wrote: »

Surely electrification will provide better timings than that?
Speeds of 225km/h-250km/h should be achieved. That'd be Dub-Cork in 90 mins standard with faster express services. At present we have a service that runs at a max of 160km/hr and completes the distance in 2hr15.

Also when journey times plummet, expect demand to rocket. If it takes less than half the time to do Dub-Cork by train than by driving yourself, you can expect a large modal shift. The door-to-door utility of driving is diminshed if you can save well over an hour of a journey. Increased demand should bring Dub-Cork services to half hourly (average wait time of 15 mins). Such a service would make even continental Europeans blush, but are CIÉ capable of running such a thing?

A big part of the issue with running trains at those speeds is the need for track strengthing and existing track curvature. Some parts of the route have bends that can't be removed because of the topography and sensitive land issues. They'll try and get the average speed up as much as possible I'd say but can't imagine it's top of anyone's agenda with DART Expansion, CMATS, Metrolink and Busconnects all in the melting pot. I know what the synic in me says about all of those getting delivered unfortunately.

thebsharp

Dats me wrote: »

Do you think the length of time it will take to plan this is why they're not electrifying the lines and buying purely EMUs for the new DART stock? Given electrification is only €500k/km it doesn't seem to make sense not to electrify the GDA now unless they're waiting for an intercity electrification plan to do all the electrification in one go or at least that the GDA bit would be compatible with the rest.

I responded to this but quoted cgcsb by mistake. Earlier this year the NTA/Irish Rail had targeted 2027 for completion of the electrification, but they also wanted to increase train capacity irrespective of this. From keeping tabs on NTA/Irish Rail announcements and tenders there must be at least 10 different DART studies ongoing that are all somewhat interdependent.

BonnieSituation

thebsharp wrote: »

A big part of the issue with running trains at those speeds is the need for track strengthing and existing track curvature. Some parts of the route have bends that can't be removed because of the topography and sensitive land issues. They'll try and get the average speed up as much as possible I'd say but can't imagine it's top of anyone's agenda with DART Expansion, CMATS, Metrolink and Busconnects all in the melting pot. I know what the synic in me says about all of those getting delivered unfortunately.

And with that in mind there's always the idea that you could run the route better than the sham that we have now between the 2 cities.

If you're gonna try and get speeds to that sort of level there's little advantage running it on a Victorian route given the amount of remedial work required.