DART+ (DART Expansion)

Lord Glentoran

AngryLips wrote: »

Why don’t you alight at an earlier stop for one of the commuter services?

I don’t think a lot of Irish people have grasped the concept that you can change trains. When I lived in Celbridge I might as well have suggested a flight to Mars as say to family members in Tipperary that they could get off the train from Thurles at Kildare and change to a train serving Hazelhatch and Celbridge.

Zebra3

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

I don’t think a lot of Irish people have grasped the concept that you can change trains. When I lived in Celbridge I might as well have suggested a flight to Mars as say to family members in Tipperary that they could get off the train from Thurles at Kildare and change to a train serving Hazelhatch and Celbridge.

I’d say a lot of it has to do with the perception of poor connections tho.

Which in a lot of cases is justified.

highdef

grahambo wrote: »

I disagree

You could have an underground station at Dublin Zoo and another in Cabra.
Underground station in Phoenix Park would be ultra successful, it makes total sense!

I love the idea of this, in theory at least. It would make the Park even more accessible than it currently is and would likely lead to a reduction in cars driving within the park. In practice, it would be quite difficult to implement as the tunnel runs directly under roadway so there would be huge disruption of traffic during the required works.

Pete_Cavan

Any Phoenix Park station would have to be after emerging from the tunnel, accessed from the NCR.

MJohnston

highdef wrote: »

I love the idea of this, in theory at least. It would make the Park even more accessible than it currently is and would likely lead to a reduction in cars driving within the park. In practice, it would be quite difficult to implement as the tunnel runs directly under roadway so there would be huge disruption of traffic during the required works.

We should stop giving a sh!t about disruption to traffic that uses Phoenix Park as a rat run. If it was more accessible via PT, I'd definitely be wanting cars banned from it.

Ireland trains

When dart services run to drogheda will dundalk have commuter services or bi mode darts.
Dundalk would take a long time on a dart but if it was a fast/commuter service it might only call at a few stations

cgcsb

highdef wrote: »

I love the idea of this, in theory at least. It would make the Park even more accessible than it currently is and would likely lead to a reduction in cars driving within the park. In practice, it would be quite difficult to implement as the tunnel runs directly under roadway so there would be huge disruption of traffic during the required works.

Fountain Rd isn't exactly the M50, it wouldn't be that disruptive. However I'd argue that a station at Marlborough Rd or Blackhorse Avenue (perhaps one between the two with pedestrian access to both) would be more beneficial given the population density and employment density with the park is close to 0.

LXFlyer

The only likely locations for future stations on that line are:

1) Heuston West / Conyngham Road
2) Cabra (between Cabra Road and Faussagh Avenue)
3) Glasnevin Junction / Whitworth Road

Talk of more than that is nonsense.

end of the road

Ireland trains wrote: »

When dart services run to drogheda will dundalk have commuter services or bi mode darts.
Dundalk would take a long time on a dart but if it was a fast/commuter service it might only call at a few stations

i suspect nothing has been decided yet.
i would think though that droghida/dundalk trains would operate a similar pattern as now once the line is electrified.

AngryLips

LXFlyer wrote: »

The only likely locations for future stations on that line are:

1) Heuston West / Conyngham Road
2) Cabra (between Cabra Road and Faussagh Avenue)
3) Glasnevin Junction / Whitworth Road

Talk of more than that is nonsense.

I wonder if they'll build a station at Inchicore now that services run through to Connolly.

Dravokivich

MJohnston wrote: »

We should stop giving a sh!t about disruption to traffic that uses Phoenix Park as a rat run. If it was more accessible via PT, I'd definitely be wanting cars banned from it.

I used to drive through Phoenix park to get to Fairview. It wasn't my destination so a train station there would be no good. And it was the best route time wise.

MJohnston

Dravokivich wrote: »

I used to drive through Phoenix park to get to Fairview. It wasn't my destination so a train station there would be no good. And it was the best route time wise.

To Fairview??

cgcsb

Dravokivich wrote: »

I used to drive through Phoenix park to get to Fairview. It wasn't my destination so a train station there would be no good. And it was the best route time wise.

I'm sorry but what is your point? a train station is no use there because you, as an individual, drive past that location?????

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

The only likely locations for future stations on that line are:

1) Heuston West / Conyngham Road
2) Cabra (between Cabra Road and Faussagh Avenue)
3) Glasnevin Junction / Whitworth Road

Talk of more than that is nonsense.

Given how far away DART expansion is, further away than metro even, a bit of crayoning at this point is hardly a bad thing.

FreudianSlippers

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm sorry but what is your point? a train station is no use there because you, as an individual, drive past that location?????

I mean, if one person isn't going to use it, what's the point?!

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Given how far away DART expansion is, further away than metro even, a bit of crayoning at this point is hardly a bad thing.

It’s still unrealistic.

We are talking about heavy rail here. You’re not going to put a stop at Heuston West and then either under the park or the other side of the tunnel due to the short distances (they are completely unsuitable locations regardless).

The three locations I listed above are the only locations that are suitable and likely between Islandbridge Junction and Glasnevin Junction.

Anything else is frankly a nonsense.

CatInABox

I've been thinking about Dart Underground and the Pheonix Park tunnel recently, and I was wondering if you could get the intended effect of Dart Underground through an upgrade of the PPT and the create of new track to join the Maynooth line with the Northern Line.

The PPT could be upgraded to Dart standard with cut and cover construction, which would obviously result in some disruption in the park, but it wouldn't be terrible. Some of those roads could even be diverted through the park with some new, temporary roads.

The hard part as I see it would be the new tracks connecting the Maynooth line to the Northern line. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to do it at all. An elevated line that starts near the Hill 16 end of Croke Park, over the river, and joins up with the Northern Line at the Clontarf Dart Depot would probably be the simplest, but I think that elevated lines probably won't get built these days. Tunnelling is made much harder by the existence of the Port Tunnel, so that's probably ruled out.

Anyway, just spitballing, not advocating. A variation of the original DU plans is probably the best bet.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

It’s still unrealistic.

We are talking about heavy rail here. You’re not going to put a stop at Heuston West and then either under the park or the other side of the tunnel due to the short distances (they are completely unsuitable locations regardless).

The three locations I listed above are the only locations that are suitable and likely between Islandbridge Junction and Glasnevin Junction.

Anything else is frankly a nonsense.

I don't think it's 'nonsense' I mean there's a significant distance between the proposed Heuston West and Cabra stations. Not only that pedestrian permeability in the areas between them are poor. For example if your starting point was Blackhorse avenue, it'd be an absolute bugger to walk to either Heuston West or Cabra due to road layout. If there were a Marlborough Rd/Blackhorse Ave station the gaps between Heuston W-Blackhorse-Cabra would stillbe longer than the gap between Whitworth Rd-Drumcondra or Drumcondra-Connolly.

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

I've been thinking about Dart Underground and the Pheonix Park tunnel recently, and I was wondering if you could get the intended effect of Dart Underground through an upgrade of the PPT and the create of new track to join the Maynooth line with the Northern Line.

The PPT could be upgraded to Dart standard with cut and cover construction, which would obviously result in some disruption in the park, but it wouldn't be terrible. Some of those roads could even be diverted through the park with some new, temporary roads.

The hard part as I see it would be the new tracks connecting the Maynooth line to the Northern line. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to do it at all. An elevated line that starts near the Hill 16 end of Croke Park, over the river, and joins up with the Northern Line at the Clontarf Dart Depot would probably be the simplest, but I think that elevated lines probably won't get built these days. Tunnelling is made much harder by the existence of the Port Tunnel, so that's probably ruled out.

Anyway, just spitballing, not advocating. A variation of the original DU plans is probably the best bet.

It'd do nothing for cross liffey capacity though, some of which will be provided by metro link and the Whitworth Rd interchange.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't think it's 'nonsense' I mean there's a significant distance between the proposed Heuston West and Cabra stations. Not only that pedestrian permeability in the areas between them are poor. For example if your starting point was Blackhorse avenue, it'd be an absolute bugger to walk to either Heuston West or Cabra due to road layout. If there were a Marlborough Rd/Blackhorse Ave station the gaps between Heuston W-Blackhorse-Cabra would stillbe longer than the gap between Whitworth Rd-Drumcondra or Drumcondra-Connolly.

It is nonsense when you look at it from a heavy rail perspective.

Not even before you think about how suitable the locations are - which they aren’t.

It isn’t going to happen.

LXFlyer

CatInABox wrote: »

I've been thinking about Dart Underground and the Pheonix Park tunnel recently, and I was wondering if you could get the intended effect of Dart Underground through an upgrade of the PPT and the create of new track to join the Maynooth line with the Northern Line.

The PPT could be upgraded to Dart standard with cut and cover construction, which would obviously result in some disruption in the park, but it wouldn't be terrible. Some of those roads could even be diverted through the park with some new, temporary roads.

The hard part as I see it would be the new tracks connecting the Maynooth line to the Northern line. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to do it at all. An elevated line that starts near the Hill 16 end of Croke Park, over the river, and joins up with the Northern Line at the Clontarf Dart Depot would probably be the simplest, but I think that elevated lines probably won't get built these days. Tunnelling is made much harder by the existence of the Port Tunnel, so that's probably ruled out.

Anyway, just spitballing, not advocating. A variation of the original DU plans is probably the best bet.

DART Underground remains the single most important element of our proposed transport network - it is a complete game changer in terms of delivering cross-city capacity, reducing rail conflicting movements and reducing the reliance on buses.

Without it in the long term the city is screwed.

MJohnston

I thought the hypothetical Phoenix Park station was only being mentioned in the context of a DART expansion (ie. the subject of the thread), rather than as a heavy rail station.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I thought the hypothetical Phoenix Park station was only being mentioned in the context of a DART expansion (ie. the subject of the thread), rather than as a heavy rail station.

DART is heavy rail.

murphaph

CatInABox wrote: »

I've been thinking about Dart Underground and the Pheonix Park tunnel recently, and I was wondering if you could get the intended effect of Dart Underground through an upgrade of the PPT and the create of new track to join the Maynooth line with the Northern Line.

The PPT could be upgraded to Dart standard with cut and cover construction, which would obviously result in some disruption in the park, but it wouldn't be terrible. Some of those roads could even be diverted through the park with some new, temporary roads.

The hard part as I see it would be the new tracks connecting the Maynooth line to the Northern line. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to do it at all. An elevated line that starts near the Hill 16 end of Croke Park, over the river, and joins up with the Northern Line at the Clontarf Dart Depot would probably be the simplest, but I think that elevated lines probably won't get built these days. Tunnelling is made much harder by the existence of the Port Tunnel, so that's probably ruled out.

Anyway, just spitballing, not advocating. A variation of the original DU plans is probably the best bet.

You've described a public transport bypass of the city centre, which is where most people want to go.

There's no cheap way of delivering the benefits of DU.

CatInABox

murphaph wrote: »

You've described a public transport bypass of the city centre, which is where most people want to go.

There's no cheap way of delivering the benefits of DU.

Yeah, I only realised that afterwards, bit of a mistake. Morto.

Dats me

One good thing about the now-2027 DART expansion is that it does make DU much more likely I think.

The original "DART Underground" project proposal cost €4bn, but less than half of it was the tunnel, Iarnróid Éireann still needed to electrify Maynooth, Kildare, close level crossings, buy new trains and build the control centre for the tunnel to make sense.

All of the "Ancillary Works" say, for the DART system with DART Underground will (hopefully) be complete in 10 years time, so in 10 years time when our Green Party led government (haha) is drawing up the next development plan, Iarnróid Éireann will be able to ask for DART Underground(€1.5bn?) and quad-tracking the Northern Line only to complete the plan. Quad tracking the northern line isn't actually part of the NTA's GDA 2016-2035 plan I saw recently, how did that happen?


As an aside, with the redesign will they be able to build a station (Tara Street say - is having all your interchanges in one station a god thing?) that integrates underground with the Metro?

Dravokivich

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm sorry but what is your point? a train station is no use there because you, as an individual, drive past that location?????

Most people driving through it, aren't going there. A lot of folks on these type of threads tend to not consider that. I was replying to someone specifically regarding it because they suggested a station should cut out rat running somehow.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

DART is heavy rail.

So from a DART perspective, why is it a nonsense?

Stick an overground station directly behind the Park Lodge Apartments, right beside the North Road gates to the Park. You claimed this location is unsuitable, but it's not really apparent why, so if you could explain why it would be great.

If it existed, it'd be 950m away from the hypothetical P13, and 1.1km away from the proposed Cabra/Carnlough Road station. That's a comparable separation to most of the south DART line stations.

500m walk from the zoo, close to the medium-density neighbourhood of Stoneybatter, very close to the future redevelopment at O'Devaney Gardens.

Don't get me wrong, I think the state of infrastructure planning means a station here will never happen. But it doesn't really seem at all like "nonsense" as you say.

MJohnston

Dravokivich wrote: »

Most people driving through it, aren't going there. A lot of folks on these type of threads tend to not consider that. I was replying to someone specifically regarding it because they suggested a station should cut out rat running somehow.

That was me, but I don't think you understood me - I think they should cut out rat-running through Phoenix Park whether they build any stations or not.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

So from a DART perspective, why is it a nonsense?

Stick an overground station directly behind the Park Lodge Apartments, right beside the North Road gates to the Park. You claimed this location is unsuitable, but it's not really apparent why, so if you could explain why it would be great.

If it existed, it'd be 950m away from the hypothetical P13, and 1.1km away from the proposed Cabra/Carnlough Road station. That's a comparable separation to most of the south DART line stations.

500m walk from the zoo, close to the medium-density neighbourhood of Stoneybatter, very close to the future redevelopment at O'Devaney Gardens.

Don't get me wrong, I think the state of infrastructure planning means a station here will never happen. But it doesn't really seem at all like "nonsense" as you say.

The stations would be too close together for a start. Every station stop adds two minutes to the journey time. I think stations at Heuston West, Cabra, and Glasnevin are enough without slowing the journey even more.

The location is completely unsuitable because it is on a curve which is specifically outlawed by the Commission for Railway Regulation for any new stations. There isn't enough space (lengthwise) for one immediately north of that (even allowing for the fact that the embankments leave no room for platforms).

At that stage you're getting too close to the planned station at the new development north of Cabra Road.