DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

so...feck Greystones, have a DART shuttle to Bray every 10 mins instead.

Realistically without a passing loop the current schedule is as good as you can get.

More than that is suicidal from an operational perspective.

People need to be practical and realistic about what can be done.

Pete_Cavan

cgcsb wrote: »

Then just operate every 20 mins from Howth to Greystones and every 20 minutes from Balbriggan(Drogheda?) to Bray. If we want to get fancy, build a passing loop near Greystones and operate every 10 minutes Greystones to Drogheda and every 10 minutes from Howth to Howth Junction.

They can't seriously be considering having full DART (i.e. serving all stations) all the way to Balbriggan or further north, are they? I know it gets mentioned in the media but I assume that this is not accurate and taking electrification to mean something it isn't.

With getting DART, the towns further north would be getting a much worse service. The increased frequency means nothing if journey times into the city are almost doubling. Buses or driving down the M1 to the Metrolink P&R would become more attractive options for many. Maintaining a 10 minute frequency would require a lot of additional rolling stock, with lots of capacity wasted running almost empty trains up the coast for much of the day. A short DART extension and limited stop electric commuter services would be better for everyone.

Ireland trains

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

cgcsb wrote: »

Then just operate every 20 mins from Howth to Greystones and every 20 minutes from Balbriggan(Drogheda?) to Bray. If we want to get fancy, build a passing loop near Greystones and operate every 10 minutes Greystones to Drogheda and every 10 minutes from Howth to Howth Junction.

They can't seriously be considering having full DART (i.e. serving all stations) all the way to Balbriggan or further north, are they? I know it gets mentioned in the media but I assume that this is not accurate and taking electrification to mean something it isn't.

With getting DART, the towns further north would be getting a much worse service. The increased frequency means nothing if journey times into the city are almost doubling. Buses or driving down the M1 to the Metrolink P&R would become more attractive options for many. Maintaining a 10 minute frequency would require a lot of additional rolling stock, with lots of capacity wasted running almost empty trains up the coast for much of the day. A short DART extension and limited stop electric commuter services would be better for everyone.

Where have you gotten the notion that journey times would double. Yes there will be more stops as usually the commuter trains go express to mallahide. But eletric trains have much better acceleration and deceleration which would make up time. Also 10 min dart to drogheda should only be at peak times. Off peak should be 15-20min with one of the trains being fast.
Also on the subject of greystones, if irish rail just stable some trains there overnight and run an extra 1-2 diesels there would be sufficent capacity. South of greystones desperately needs more trains as it is normally standing before wicklow.
I also believe that the 10 min dart is unecessary at off peak because they run nearly empty and has made greystones-connolly 1 hour long.
Finally iv been getting the 16:3x rosslarr train from connolly this week and it was an ICR 2 of the days and a 29K train today. Does anyone know what train is supposed to run that service as the 29k have nowhere enough seats for people.

marno21

IMO DART to Drogheda is nuts.

It would be one thing if you split Connolly-Drogheda into 2 sections and ran the southern half as an express service between halfway and the city centre. But this isn't really feasible without adding extra tracks to the Northern Line

CatInABox

Ireland trains wrote: »

I also believe that the 10 min dart is unecessary at off peak because they run nearly empty and has made greystones-connolly 1 hour long.

Ten minute Darts are a key part of BusConnects. It's a legitimate complaint, but unfortunately, it runs up against creating a great network for everyone in Dublin.

Eventually, once they get enough carriages, they plan on running the Dart every five minutes (presumably every Dart will be four carriages).

gooddarts10

CatInABox wrote: »

Ten minute Darts are a key part of BusConnects. It's a legitimate complaint, but unfortunately, it runs up against creating a great network for everyone in Dublin.

Eventually, once they get enough carriages, they plan on running the Dart every five minutes (presumably every Dart will be four carriages).

Dart every 5 minutes? Where do you see that

CatInABox

gooddarts10 wrote: »

Dart every 5 minutes? Where do you see that

I can't find it, sorry. I've definitely read it in a published government document, but I've checked all the available one's that spring to mind.

Dats me

CatInABox wrote: »

I can't find it, sorry. I've definitely read it in a published government document, but I've checked all the available one's that spring to mind.

Might that have been post DART Underground?



I know that in the MetroLink Preferred Route Document the appendix for Glasnevin interchange states that the design capacity for the Maynooth Line, so future proofing, is for 15 trains per hour.

Grandeeod

I remember when DART was every 5 mins peak. That was well before all the other **** was integrated into it without the ultimate solution - DU.

Without DU, it will struggle until its built.

Dats me

Grandeeod wrote: »

I remember when DART was every 5 mins peak. That was well before all the other **** was integrated into it without the ultimate solution - DU.

Without DU, it will struggle until its built.

In fairness the current plan of doing all the "ancillary works" needed for the tunnel now, electrification, signalling, purchase of rolling stock now makes sense. Improves the case for the tunnel too.

Pete_Cavan

Ireland trains wrote: »

Where have you gotten the notion that journey times would double. Yes there will be more stops as usually the commuter trains go express to mallahide. But eletric trains have much better acceleration and deceleration which would make up time. Also 10 min dart to drogheda should only be at peak times.

Regardless of electric trains, journey times will increase with half a dozen more stops. The goal of such investment as electrification should be to reduce journey times. Given the considerable current journey times, any increase could push some passengers to other modes.

And 10 minutes is the existing DART frequency, which sees over-crowded trains at certain times, and then add passengers from numerous other stops plus general population increase. It doesn't make any sense.

Thrashssacre

How far behind a dart to balbriggan would an enterprise have to run in order not to be held up? Surely it’s far too long and it would leave a fairly big gap in the timetable until the next dart.

Pete_Cavan

CatInABox wrote: »

gooddarts10 wrote: »

Dart every 5 minutes? Where do you see that

I can't find it, sorry. I've definitely read it in a published government document, but I've checked all the available one's that spring to mind.

Could that also include Maynooth DARTs?

CatInABox

Dats me wrote: »

Might that have been post DART Underground?



I know that in the MetroLink Preferred Route Document the appendix for Glasnevin interchange states that the design capacity for the Maynooth Line, so future proofing, is for 15 trains per hour.

Not sure, but I can't really think of a way that they'd manage without it.

Grandeeod

Dats me wrote: »

In fairness the current plan of doing all the "ancillary works" needed for the tunnel now, electrification, signalling, purchase of rolling stock now makes sense. Improves the case for the tunnel too.

I don't believe these works are heading towards DU. The ML connection at Glasnevin as proposed looks like an alternative in conjunction with the PPT. The current set up looks very much like various short term solutions put forward many years ago and including the original interchange at Glasnevin with the original Metro North as proposed by P11 in the O'Reilly report.

We are actually going backwards.

CatInABox

Grandeeod wrote: »

I don't believe these works are heading towards DU. The ML connection at Glasnevin as proposed looks like an alternative in conjunction with the PPT. The current set up looks very much like various short term solutions put forward many years ago and including the original interchange at Glasnevin with the original Metro North as proposed by P11 in the O'Reilly report.

We are actually going backwards.

The Dart Underground project, when it was put forward originally, included electrification of the lines, removing level crossings, new rolling stock, signalling, etc. It was basically one massive Dublin and Commuter rail upgrade project.

The price shock meant that plan was never going to fly, so all the various elements of that plan have been separated out into different projects, which have a far higher chance of moving forward.

Grandeeod

CatInABox wrote: »

The Dart Underground project, when it was put forward originally, included electrification of the lines, removing level crossings, new rolling stock, signalling, etc. It was basically one massive Dublin and Commuter rail upgrade project.

The price shock meant that plan was never going to fly, so all the various elements of that plan have been separated out into different projects, which have a far higher chance of moving forward.

Wrong. Why divide it up on the back of looking again at the tunnel aspect, which is where we are at now without any news whatsoever. Can kicking by a political class that inherited alternative proposals which they have cherry picked. If you want the reality of what is going on, I'll happily tell you over the coming days. I was in the middle of it all back in the FF lead Government days, while being courted by the opposition. DART and DU has been fecked over along with Metro. But I'll stick to DART in the interest of this thread.

marno21

Whilst it's disappointing that the clear and unambiguous case for DART Underground is not being accepted by the ruling junta, the fact that the non tunnel elements of DART Underground are being progressed is acceptable. The PPT DART service is a major improvement on current arrangements, and the Maynooth Line electrification benefits go without saying.

However, what I will say, is it worries me exactly how far the current infrastructure can be pushed before it turns to mayhem. The Northern Line is severely constrained by the lack of additional tracks. This will not be addressed by DART Underground. The Southeastern Line is heavily constrained by the level crossings and further south between Bray and Greystones where development continues unabated. The Maynooth line is constrained by an inability to build extra tracks west of Glasnevin, and the Kildare line is restricted by either having to use Heuston or else shoving more traffic onto the already congested Maynooth line (or else Docklands).

This is before I have mentioned anything to do with Connolly or the Loop Line.

The major issue I see is that even if the most no brainer of no brainers, DART Underground, cannot get built the future of the GDA rail network is limited. It seems to me that in the long term some fairly radical tunnelling will have to be considered to get over the many surface constraints that exist with the existing network.

The Maynooth line project tendered this week includes 40km of electrification that's overdue by 20 years or more, and the elimination of six level crossings. Lets see how that goes.

bk

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Regardless of electric trains, journey times will increase with half a dozen more stops. The goal of such investment as electrification should be to reduce journey times. Given the considerable current journey times, any increase could push some passengers to other modes.

The point of electrification is too increase frequency and thus capacity, not to increase speeds.

There is no point of fast trains, if you can't get on them due to overcrowding.

With Dublins population exploding and demand way up, all while having very little space to expand services, all leads to the reality that the focus has to be on capacity at the cost of speed.

People often like to point out that trains to Cork were faster 80 years ago then they are today. And they are right. But what they fail to point out is that there are far more trains, carrying far more people going today then in the past.

As for folks moving to other modes, when those other modes are just as congested, if not worse, it won't make much difference.

yannakis

marno21 wrote: »

Irish Rail have tendered for consultants for the Maynooth line DART upgrade and for "city centre enhancements".

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase.asp?PID=145211

Are there any sketches for the 6 level crossings? Some of them look incredibly tight (see Ashtown) and I'm curious to see how they'd go about it.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

IMO DART to Drogheda is nuts.

It would be one thing if you split Connolly-Drogheda into 2 sections and ran the southern half as an express service between halfway and the city centre. But this isn't really feasible without adding extra tracks to the Northern Line

Ideally a new inland intercity line with high speed spec would run south From Drogheda to Dublin Airport and onto Heuston via a new tunnel and the PPT line, this would accommodate a half hourly Belfast-Cork Intercity service calling at Drogheda, Airport and Heuston West. Then the existing northern could be purely DART, every 5 mins or less if we like.

murphaph

Dats me wrote: »

In fairness the current plan of doing all the "ancillary works" needed for the tunnel now, electrification, signalling, purchase of rolling stock now makes sense. Improves the case for the tunnel too.

Don't hold your breath. DART phase one was supposed to be followed by all this stuff and here we are 35 odd years later still waiting for it.

Sam Russell

Wasn't there talk about a generator tender slotted within the Dart train that could generate the required electricity that could be used where there was no O/H line available. That could be used while the lines are put up.

yannakis

Sam Russell wrote: »

Wasn't there talk about a generator tender slotted within the Dart train that could generate the required electricity that could be used where there was no O/H line available. That could be used while the lines are put up.

Like buying a Nissan Leaf and throwing a Generator in the boot?

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

Wasn't there talk about a generator tender slotted within the Dart train that could generate the required electricity that could be used where there was no O/H line available. That could be used while the lines are put up.

that is the proposal to order bi-mode trains. they will have a generator module, probably in the centre of each unit. the module can be uncuppled and removed when no longer required.

Stephen Strange

yannakis wrote: »

Like buying a Nissan Leaf and throwing a Generator in the boot?

Otherwise known as a plug-in hybrid

Sam Russell

yannakis wrote: »

Like buying a Nissan Leaf and throwing a Generator in the boot?

No like buying a Toyota self charging hybrid. Thedifference is that the unit can be removed when no longer needed, and des not impact the performance ( one would hope).

Pete_Cavan

bk wrote: »

The point of electrification is too increase frequency and thus capacity, not to increase speeds.

There is no point of fast trains, if you can't get on them due to overcrowding.

With Dublins population exploding and demand way up, all while having very little space to expand services, all leads to the reality that the focus has to be on capacity at the cost of speed.

People often like to point out that trains to Cork were faster 80 years ago then they are today. And they are right. But what they fail to point out is that there are far more trains, carrying far more people going today then in the past.

As for folks moving to other modes, when those other modes are just as congested, if not worse, it won't make much difference.

For commuters in north county Dublin, journey times are the most important. A frequent DART is great but if you can get a faster express bus through the PT, or drive to Lissenhall for a super frequent and fast Metro, you will most likely choose the most time efficient option (assuming no major cost differential). And it is DART which is more likely to suffer from congestion issues than the alternatives.

As I mentioned, putting all the commuters of existing northern line DART and Commuter services on to just DART isn't going to work. There is very limited scope for extra trains so that means DART users approaching the city will struggle to get on (as is already the case at certain times). Adding more stopping services is likely to reduce the number of paths, not increase them. Only having DART services which stop at every station from Connolly to Balbriggan/Drogheda is not preferable to continuing with a mix of DART and limited stop commuters.

Sam Russell

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

For commuters in north county Dublin, journey times are the most important. A frequent DART is great but if you can get a faster express bus through the PT, or drive to Lissenhall for a super frequent and fast Metro, you will most likely choose the most time efficient option (assuming no major cost differential). And it is DART which is more likely to suffer from congestion issues than the alternatives.

As I mentioned, putting all the commuters of existing northern line DART and Commuter services on to just DART isn't going to work. There is very limited scope for extra trains so that means DART users approaching the city will struggle to get on (as is already the case at certain times). Adding more stopping services is likely to reduce the number of paths, not increase them. Only having DART services which stop at every station from Connolly to Balbriggan/Drogheda is not preferable to continuing with a mix of DART and limited stop commuters.

I do not agree with the NTA diktat that every Dart stops at every station. It would make more sense to have 'fast' Darts that have limited stops followed by a 'slow' Dart that does stop at every stop. For example, having a Dart leave Bray at 5 past, stopping at DL, Black Rock, Sydney Parade, Lansdowne, GCD, Pearse, etc., followed by an all stations Dart at 10 past.

Running the 'fast' service every thirty minutes would mean the other stations would get a 15 minute service, while the 'fast' stations would get a 10 min service.

A similar approach would work for Drogheda and Balbrigan.

The major requirement is for regular, dependable, journey times, with good frequency.

gooddarts10

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not agree with the NTA diktat that every Dart stops at every station. It would make more sense to have 'fast' Darts that have limited stops followed by a 'slow' Dart that does stop at every stop. For example, having a Dart leave Bray at 5 past, stopping at DL, Black Rock, Sydney Parade, Lansdowne, GCD, Pearse, etc., followed by an all stations Dart at 10 past.

Running the 'fast' service every thirty minutes would mean the other stations would get a 15 minute service, while the 'fast' stations would get a 10 min service.

A similar approach would work for Drogheda and Balbrigan.

The major requirement is for regular, dependable, journey times, with good frequency.

Far too confusing for the average punter imo