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DART+ (DART Expansion)
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Sam Russell wrote: »Wasn't there talk about a generator tender slotted within the Dart train that could generate the required electricity that could be used where there was no O/H line available. That could be used while the lines are put up.
I've been thinking about this and I suspect we'd have problems doing something like it in practice.end of the road wrote: »that is the proposal to order bi-mode trains. they will have a generator module, probably in the centre of each unit. the module can be uncuppled and removed when no longer required.
There are two ways you can have hybrid trains. First is to have railcars that have both a pantograph and a diesel engine. Second is to use the FLIRT type trainsets offered by some Swiss company (Staedler I think). These have middle-section diesel generators. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
On the one hand, trainsets with middle section diesel generators would be comfortable to ride in, because there would be no diesel engine making noise in the passenger car. But there would be two large downsides.
1) They'd divide each trainset in half - a passenger could not walk from one half of the trainset to the other because the diesel generator car would be inaccessible to passengers. So for an 8 car train, instead of being divided by 2, 4 cars like the 29000s or some of the newer DARTs (or even the 3/4 car ICRs), a FLIRT train would be divided by 4.
2) Platform space - this is the elephant in the room. Most platforms especially in the Dublin area - including most notably the suburban platforms at Connolly - are geared around 8 car trains, where each car is the length of a 29000 or a DART car (those same platforms can only accommodate 7 car ICR because the ICRs are longer). There is not much margin AFAIK especially at Connolly. FLIRT type trains would cause a major trade-off to have to be made because the platform space to accommodate 8 cars of our current types plus 2 diesel generators. So the choice would have to be made:- Have shorter passenger cars so that the equivalent of 8 cars plus 2 generator can fit into where it used to be just 8 cars? That would reduce capacity, and it could not be regained when the line is elecrtrified because when the diesel gens are no longer required, they just shorten the trainset by removing them. At that point, 1/2 - 1 car lengths on the existing platforms would be wasted.
- Make trains 8 cars long but add generators, adding an additional 1/2 to 1 car length to a train, and have them not fit on the platform until the wiring is put up?
- Buy full length trains (as above) and retrofit all the platforms?
The other options is to buy hybrid cars. These could be ordered to similar carbody dimensions as what we use today, I assume, with out any balancing act as to train and platform length.
But they could end up being basically 29000s with pantographs
blegh. And they might be horrible to ride in under diesel power with diesel engine noise reverberating around the interiors of the carriages. They'd be awful doing the things that "Commuter" cars do today like Sligo and Rosslare services, something that's still happening for some reason
What is the solution? I don't know but I'd like to know what the NTA and IE are thinking on this.
For my part, I'd say electrifiy the Maynooth, Balbriggan and Kildare lines as fast as possible, buy straight EMUs for the DART to follow with current carbody dimensions, and then from there decide what types of hybrid trains should be used on long distance services that will likely never be electrified e.g. Dundalk, Longford, the Rosslare line etc.0 -
I've been thinking about this and I suspect we'd have problems doing something like it in practice.
There are two ways you can have hybrid trains. First is to have railcars that have both a pantograph and a diesel engine. Second is to use the FLIRT type trainsets offered by some Swiss company (Staedler I think). These have middle-section diesel generators. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
On the one hand, trainsets with middle section diesel generators would be comfortable to ride in, because there would be no diesel engine making noise in the passenger car. But there would be two large downsides.
1) They'd divide each trainset in half - a passenger could not walk from one half of the trainset to the other because the diesel generator car would be inaccessible to passengers. So for an 8 car train, instead of being divided by 2, 4 cars like the 29000s or some of the newer DARTs (or even the 3/4 car ICRs), a FLIRT train would be divided by 4.
2) Platform space - this is the elephant in the room. Most platforms especially in the Dublin area - including most notably the suburban platforms at Connolly - are geared around 8 car trains, where each car is the length of a 29000 or a DART car (those same platforms can only accommodate 7 car ICR because the ICRs are longer). There is not much margin AFAIK especially at Connolly. FLIRT type trains would cause a major trade-off to have to be made because the platform space to accommodate 8 cars of our current types plus 2 diesel generators. So the choice would have to be made:- Have shorter passenger cars so that the equivalent of 8 cars plus 2 generator can fit into where it used to be just 8 cars? That would reduce capacity, and it could not be regained when the line is elecrtrified because when the diesel gens are no longer required, they just shorten the trainset by removing them. At that point, 1/2 - 1 car lengths on the existing platforms would be wasted.
- Make trains 8 cars long but add generators, adding an additional 1/2 to 1 car length to a train, and have them not fit on the platform until the wiring is put up?
- Buy full length trains (as above) and retrofit all the platforms?
The other options is to buy hybrid cars. These could be ordered to similar carbody dimensions as what we use today, I assume, with out any balancing act as to train and platform length.
But they could end up being basically 29000s with pantographs blegh. And they might be horrible to ride in under diesel power with diesel engine noise reverberating around the interiors of the carriages. They'd be awful doing the things that "Commuter" cars do today like Sligo and Rosslare services, something that's still happening for some reason
What is the solution? I don't know but I'd like to know what the NTA and IE are thinking on this.
For my part, I'd say electrifiy the Maynooth, Balbriggan and Kildare lines as fast as possible, buy straight EMUs for the DART to follow with current carbody dimensions, and then from there decide what types of hybrid trains should be used on long distance services that will likely never be electrified e.g. Dundalk, Longford, the Rosslare line etc.
Or use a diesel locomotive to pull from the end of the o/h wires.0 -
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