DART+ (DART Expansion)

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

None of those south DART level crossings closures will ever happen in the current political climate, I'm sure of that. The ones along the Maynooth line will go fine though, I'm sure.

It's hard to know what the difference is....

I honestly don't even see how that's an issue, locals don't want the job done, just leave the gates down almost all the time and the job is effectively done

bk

It is interesting that DART expansion increases capacity from 26k people to 60k, but DU only adds an extra 20k.

It doesn't show DU to be great value. You can see why they have switched to phasing the DU project and are focusing on the DART expansion first. It adds almost twice as much capacity for a lot less cost.

loyatemu

I've added the engineering report on increasing capacity between Greystones and Bray to the relevant thread:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110254389&postcount=35

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

It is interesting that DART expansion increases capacity from 26k people to 60k, but DU only adds an extra 20k.

It doesn't show DU to be great value. You can see why they have switched to phasing the DU project and are focusing on the DART expansion first. It adds almost twice as much capacity for a lot less cost.

I expect that DARTu would have a much greater true capacity, but rather expanding the DART first is what's wanted so a little figure fudging is done. By building DARTu multiples more capacity is freed up on other lines, but these affects wont be counted because the modelling is too far out into the future with too many unknowns.

cgcsb

I get the impression that The Northern Line is being bloated into a big long running saga of a public project IÉ talking about possible passing loops when it's brought to their attention that long distance trains will be doing the equivalent of a fast cyclist from Drogheda to Connolly. The consultants say: four track it for the value and the sake of a permanent fix, IÉ want a third track passing loop here and there, which won't do anything on a line with a 10min DART frequency.

marno21

bk wrote: »

It is interesting that DART expansion increases capacity from 26k people to 60k, but DU only adds an extra 20k.

It doesn't show DU to be great value. You can see why they have switched to phasing the DU project and are focusing on the DART expansion first. It adds almost twice as much capacity for a lot less cost.

Remember though that one of the reasons DU was being pushed to open up city centre access from the Kildare line. DART Expansion achieves this but less effectively using the PPT, and we still don't know how much reliance there will be on Docklands

MJohnston

A question I might have asked before: when DART underground was originally planned, would Connolly have held more gravity in terms of commuter preference as a destination? I suspect the answer is yes.

I'm curious, because we still see Docklands referred to as a compromise destination, but I think that over the last 10 years especially, the gravity of the city in that regard has shifted completely, towards Docklands. That's before we see the completion of all the extra offices that are being constructed or planned on the north Docklands at the minute.

I know Docklands doesn't offer any through-line potential in the way that Connolly does, but I feel like a lot of DART expansion would be better served thinking about Docklands and Grand Canal Dock stations as core destinations too.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

A question I might have asked before: when DART underground was originally planned, would Connolly have held more gravity in terms of commuter preference as a destination? I suspect the answer is yes.

I'm curious, because we still see Docklands referred to as a compromise destination, but I think that over the last 10 years especially, the gravity of the city in that regard has shifted completely, towards Docklands. That's before we see the completion of all the extra offices that are being constructed or planned on the north Docklands at the minute.

I know Docklands doesn't offer any through-line potential in the way that Connolly does, but I feel like a lot of DART expansion would be better served thinking about Docklands and Grand Canal Dock stations as core destinations too.

Sending all Maynooth trains to Docklands and all Hazelhatch trains to GCD wouldn't be a bad thing, then the only overlap you have is the Connolly to GCD section which will have a 5 min service frequency, then all you have to do is slot in the inter city trains. The density of employment in that area is going skyward. The interchange at Glasnevin makes all this completely doable. There you have the choice of 2 DART routes, Metrolink, the E bus corridor and Dublin bikes at this location, so you cant moan about being dumped in Docklands, or anywhere else really.

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

Sending all Maynooth trains to Docklands and all Hazelhatch trains to GCD wouldn't be a bad thing, then the only overlap you have is the Connolly to GCD section which will have a 5 min service frequency, then all you have to do is slot in the inter city trains. The density of employment in that area is going skyward. The interchange at Glasnevin makes all this completely doable. There you have the choice of 2 DART routes, Metrolink, the E bus corridor and Dublin bikes at this location, so you cant moan about being dumped in Docklands, or anywhere else really.

2 changes for anyone going to Lansdowne Road from Maynooth Line - I suppose it's 1 change for most journeys currently.

bk

marno21 wrote: »

Remember though that one of the reasons DU was being pushed to open up city centre access from the Kildare line. DART Expansion achieves this but less effectively using the PPT, and we still don't know how much reliance there will be on Docklands

Metrolink at Cross and Guns will now give you that access to the city center. Change there for O'Connell St, Tara St, Stephens Green.

Of course DU would be more direct, but I don't think this on it's own would justify such a big spend.

It seems smart to do Metrolink and Dart Expansion first and then when eventually capacity on those max's out, you can do DU to take the pressure off them and again the cherry on top of this better access to the city.

MJohnston

loyatemu wrote: »

2 changes for anyone going to Lansdowne Road from Maynooth Line - I suppose it's 1 change for most journeys currently.

I'm sure it has been pondered and discussed before, but an Ossory Road station could really solve that problem (and potentially cause others) and there's plenty of room for it in land terms.

loyatemu

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm sure it has been pondered and discussed before, but an Ossory Road station could really solve that problem (and potentially cause others) and there's plenty of room for it in land terms.

it would very close to Connolly (and a Ballybough Station if one was built).

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

2 changes for anyone going to Lansdowne Road from Maynooth Line - I suppose it's 1 change for most journeys currently.

Probably a rare enough journey, so 2 changes wouldn't be excessive, you wouldn't even have to go outside to change. Some would probably walk from GCD, rather than a 5 min wait, or some would take the train to docklands and complete the journey by Dublin Bike. The reality is, without DARTu, some journeys will require 2 changes, but capacity and frequency are what's most important. People argued that there should be direct luas services from one line to another, but really this adds layers of complication and means lower frequency for everyone.

Qrt

cgcsb wrote: »

People argued that there should be direct luas services from one line to another, but really this adds layers of complication and means lower frequency for everyone.

I remember hearing this, are people that allergic to a thirty second walk?

Heartbreak Hank

CatInABox wrote: »

Here's the Twitter thread, some interesting stuff here.

https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1131258079897694208

WRT the projected capacity, and even the current capacity, taken by the rail network, a speaker from the floor (formerly high up in Irish Rail) stated that the busiest part of the M50 moves 7,500 vehicles per hour per direction (@1.2 per car = 9,000 people phpd). I was amazed by that, particularly considering the split of funds between the rail network and M50.

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

Probably a rare enough journey, so 2 changes wouldn't be excessive, you wouldn't even have to go outside to change. Some would probably walk from GCD, rather than a 5 min wait, or some would take the train to docklands and complete the journey by Dublin Bike. The reality is, without DARTu, some journeys will require 2 changes, but capacity and frequency are what's most important. People argued that there should be direct luas services from one line to another, but really this adds layers of complication and means lower frequency for everyone.

Lansdowne is a major destination, there are going to be 1000s of Facebook workers there (replacing the 1000s of AIB workers who were there previously).

Quite a lot of other employment in the area too, I'd have thought Maynooth line stations -> LR is quite a common journey.

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

Lansdowne is a major destination, there are going to be 1000s of Facebook workers there (replacing the 1000s of AIB workers who were there previously).

Quite a lot of other employment in the area too, I'd have thought Maynooth line stations -> LR is quite a common journey.

Like I said, not everyone can be accommodated. This proposal is the best that can realistically be achieved without DARTu. If Ballsbridge is the destination, people will probably opt to take the E bus From Glasnevin

Sam Russell

Do not forget Sydney Parade as it is home toSt Vincent's UH and SVPH and soon (?) to be the location for the National Maternity Hospital - not only workers but patients. Plus, just a short stroll to RTE.

Quite a destination and journey generator.

Brian CivilEng

Sorry to have been unable to attend, these talks are usually posted on YouTube within a couple of months so looking forward to watching it.

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

WRT the projected capacity, and even the current capacity, taken by the rail network, a speaker from the floor (formerly high up in Irish Rail) stated that the busiest part of the M50 moves 7,500 vehicles per hour per direction (@1.2 per car = 9,000 people phpd). I was amazed by that, particularly considering the split of funds between the rail network and M50.

This point should be shared more widely. It's something I've often thought of while waiting in Connolly at half five, at peak hour it's likely more people pass through that station than cross the M50 toll bridge. Not on anyone's radar though. (4/5 DARTS + 3/4 Diesel trains each direction 17:00 - 18:00). Around 8,000 capacity per direction.

BonnieSituation

CatInABox wrote: »

Here's the Twitter thread, some interesting stuff here.

https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1131258079897694208

DU still on the agenda at least.

Station at Kylemore is a no brainer really and an easy win.

marno21

BonnieSituation wrote: »

DU still on the agenda at least.

Station at Kylemore is a no brainer really and an easy win.

Pascal Donohue seems to be against DU in the short/medium term anyway which will be a challenge. Not sure if that's due to constituent objections or something else. The NTA seem very pro DU in comparison

MJohnston

loyatemu wrote: »

it would very close to Connolly (and a Ballybough Station if one was built).

It would be close, but still about 600m apart at the point I'm thinking of. It'd be an inner city station, where shorter distances between stations are more common. It's too close to Docklands though, is the real problem.

One minor alternative, that I think should be done anyway, is to improve pedestrian connectivity between Docklands and Connolly. They're about 500m walk apart, yet you have to walk much further to actually get access to both. Open up an access point to Connolly from Seville Place, give people a way to access the DART platforms from that end of the station.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

It would be close, but still about 600m apart at the point I'm thinking of. It'd be an inner city station, where shorter distances between stations are more common. It's too close to Docklands though, is the real problem.

One minor alternative, that I think should be done anyway, is to improve pedestrian connectivity between Docklands and Connolly. They're about 500m walk apart, yet you have to walk much further to actually get access to both. Open up an access point to Connolly from Seville Place, give people a way to access the DART platforms from that end of the station.

Docklands may be moved further south though.

bk

loyatemu wrote: »

Lansdowne is a major destination, there are going to be 1000s of Facebook workers there (replacing the 1000s of AIB workers who were there previously).

In my experience, most Facebook workers live close to where they work. Lots of international workers. They have little interest and wouldn't even think of living in Maynooth, etc.

These are the type of folks who want to live in apartments in and around the city, in my experience.

Of course, there would be some who would make this journey, but I wouldn't expect 1000's. In the end, it is still quite doable. 2 changes isn't at all unusual in the likes of London, etc.

cgcsb

At present a journey on the Maynooth line to Landsdowne would typically require 1 change, although there is one direct service I think. Basically you'd be adding another change, but gaining much more frequent service to Maynooth. Also the change time would be very short, under 5 minutes in both cases.

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

Docklands may be moved further south though.

Only under DARTu though, right?

marno21

MJohnston wrote: »

Only under DARTu though, right?

No, I believe the NTA are looking into moving the station south to near the Spencer Dock Luas stop independently of DART Underground.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

Only under DARTu though, right?

It could happen anyway to better connect the luas to the DART

MJohnston

marno21 wrote: »

No, I believe the NTA are looking into moving the station south to near the Spencer Dock Luas stop independently of DART Underground.

Presumably that would be on City Block 2?

marno21

MJohnston wrote: »

Presumably that would be on City Block 2?

I've never seen published plans beyond what's outlined in this article

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irelands-newest-train-station-could-move-because-of-major-shortfall-in-passengers-36916197.html