DART+ (DART Expansion)

thomasj

I heard an interesting rumour over the weekend that the new Connolly station suburban setup could move down to newcomen junction with the possibility of the Connolly platforms above and the docklands platforms below.

That would solve all problems surely?

Qrt

BonnieSituation wrote: »

DU still on the agenda at least.

Station at Kylemore is a no brainer really and an easy win.

Especially considering it’s relative proximity to the Luas. The area needs a dire revamp, lots of messy industrial buildings and Labre Park doesn’t add to the pretty landscape.

Thrashssacre

With dart underground a seemingly long way off with the dart expansion plan using existing infrastructure being the focus, should it be redeveloped as a dart/intercity tunnel allowing through running from the northern line to the heuston line for intercity trains as well as dart. This would free up space at Dublin’s terminal stations which by this point would be at an even greater premium and may allow the project to be more palatable to people outside of Dublin maybe a quad track tunnel with two for dart and two for commuter/intercity train? Belfast/cork to Dublin could be amalgamated into one service reducing the stock needed for both and allowing more journeys without a change, a commuter train from Drogheda could continue to newbridge or Portlaoise fairly easily (possibly as a limited stop commuter service) surely with the population growth and restrictions of the network which will only grow in the next 30 years this is something we should consider.

Pete_Cavan

Thrashssacre wrote: »

With dart underground a seemingly long way off with the dart expansion plan using existing infrastructure being the focus, should it be redeveloped as a dart/intercity tunnel allowing through running from the northern line to the heuston line for intercity trains as well as dart.

Stop right there. South bound northern line trains can't get onto the tunnel bound line without first going to Connolly and travelling back, a manuover which will create more problems than it would solve.

Thrashssacre

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Stop right there. South bound northern line trains can't get onto the tunnel bound line without first going to Connolly and travelling back, a manuover which will create more problems than it would solve.

What? The south bound northern line trains in my scenario wouldn’t serve Connolly they would come off the northern line and enter the tunnel at spencer dock same as the darts would.

Zebra3

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

WRT the projected capacity, and even the current capacity, taken by the rail network, a speaker from the floor (formerly high up in Irish Rail) stated that the busiest part of the M50 moves 7,500 vehicles per hour per direction (@1.2 per car = 9,000 people phpd). I was amazed by that, particularly considering the split of funds between the rail network and M50.

This is basic PR stuff that IÉ should be getting out there.

A few simple ads on their trains, in their stations and on social media.

“This is what we do for moving people. And we want to do more”, etc.

Makes getting new infrastructure a bit more palatable to the public and can put naysayers in the media on the back foot.

Pete_Cavan

Thrashssacre wrote: »

What? The south bound northern line trains in my scenario wouldn’t serve Connolly they would come off the northern line and enter the tunnel at spencer dock same as the darts would.

You are talking about Cork - Belfast trains when DU is in place? DU is so far off that it's not even worth considering scheduling through it at this stage. And you probably need a fully electrified route to run Cork - Belfast trains through the tunnel, and that is even further in the future.

bk

Thrashssacre wrote: »

With dart underground a seemingly long way off with the dart expansion plan using existing infrastructure being the focus, should it be redeveloped as a dart/intercity tunnel allowing through running from the northern line to the heuston line for intercity trains as well as dart.

Are you talking about quad tracking this tunnel? *

Because if you are talking about mixing DARTs, commuter and intercity trains on just two tracks, aren't you just repeating the terrible mistakes we've already made?

We've already seen what poor experience for all these leads to on the line to Bray. DART's aren't as frequent as they should be for a Metro type service, yet they slow down the following commuter and intercity trains, so they end up far too slow.

Hell, the Luas green line with it's relatively small trams, carries more people every day then the DART, thanks to it having the line to itself.

For the DU tunnel to make it worth it, I suspect it will need to have DART's running through it every 5 minutes or less. There certainly won't be any space for non stopping intercity trains between those type of frequencies.

And I think Irish Rail and the NTA know this, given that they call it Dart Underground and have never suggested anything but DART's will operate in it.

We really need to get away from these sort of half arsed cheap solutions and instead build proper dedicated lines like pretty much every other European city does (e.g. see Crossrail or RER in Paris).

* And if you are suggesting quad tracking and building underground stations big enough to take intercity trains, you've now turned a 2 billion tunnel into a 4 to 6 billion one!

cgcsb

Intercity routes should be separated out as much as possible. Long term, I think the ideal set up would be a new medium/high speed line that would run inland from Drogheda to Heuston via Dublin Airport and have a proper frequent national rail service ever half hour(or even every 20 mins) from Belfast to Cork, taking in Drogheda, The Airport, Heuston and Limerick Junction. That way the existing northern line could be DART only and Droghda residents would have the choice of going express to Heuston in 15 mins or DART to Connolly, taking 45 mins. With 4 tracking into Heuston the only conflicts between intercity and DART would be Sligo and Rosslare.

Dats me

They've decided to do one massive 600-train order (over 10 years): https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/tender-process-begins-for-the-largest-and-greenest-fleet-order-in-irish-public-transport-history/

Very interesting: It's battery/electric not diesel/electric that they're tendering for

Also, the document says contract award by August 2020 which is a little grim

marno21

Dats me wrote: »

They've decided to do one massive 600-train order (over 10 years): https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/tender-process-begins-for-the-largest-and-greenest-fleet-order-in-irish-public-transport-history/

Very interesting: It's battery/electric not diesel/electric that they're tendering for

Also, the document says contract award by August 2020 which is a little grim

Note: it's minimum of 250 with upto 600 trains. The August 2020 is not surprising given the size of the proposal

They really need to get moving now with electrification of the DART expanded network

cgcsb

Maynooth to Docklands wires need to start going up asap. I presume this doesn't need an extensive public consultation and or a railway order, since it's just an upgrade of an existing asset. Preparations for the Glasneven interchange also need to happen quick.

murphaph

cgcsb wrote: »

Maynooth to Docklands wires need to start going up asap. I presume this doesn't need an extensive public consultation and or a railway order, since it's just an upgrade of an existing asset. Preparations for the Glasneven interchange also need to happen quick.

That's an interesting question. Here in Germany electrifying a line is considered a major upgrade so residents can push for sound barriers alongside the line. This massive additional cost has for example prevented the electrification of the Berlin southern goods ring through the city.

cgcsb

murphaph wrote: »

That's an interesting question. Here in Germany electrifying a line is considered a major upgrade so residents can push for sound barriers alongside the line. This massive additional cost has for example prevented the electrification of the Berlin southern goods ring through the city.

Surely the electric trains are much quieter than diesel powered trains?

Phil.x

Is that 600 carriages?

Dats me

Phil.x wrote: »

Is that 600 carriages?

Yeah

murphaph

cgcsb wrote: »

Surely the electric trains are much quieter than diesel powered trains?

From the residents' perspective it's a diesel hauled freight train a couple of times a day versus dozens of electric hauled freight trains. The most noise coming from a freight train is from the low quality wheel bearings of the rolling stock rather than the locomotive.

liamog

You'll have all the save the trees people out too, they'll likely need some cutback for the works.

devnull

liamog wrote: »

You'll have all the save the trees people out too, they'll likely need some cutback for the works.

The biggest issue with that particular lobby is that they are also the same lobby moaning about their areas being turned into a bus super-highway, put a few buses down there and they cry blue murder but they see no problem with huge amounts of cars going down the same road.

People who are voting Green need to focus on dealing with the most inefficient public transport modes first, and the private car is by far the biggest, the emissions per passenger is in far higher numbers than a bus that is packed at peak times.

All it really is at the end of the day is NIMBYism in a lot of cases, being dressed up as something else. Most of the people who are talking about this drive and they don't want to see buses going down their road.

liamog

I agree, I found a lot of the local election candidates very hollow in that respect.

We want better public transport, so long as it involves zero disruption to my current commute. And you better not let poor people get a bus near our estate!

It's probably an oxymoron but we need more honest politicians to tell people the hard truths.

1huge1

RTE are covering it now

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0527/1051992-irish-rail-to-order-greenest-fleet-of-trains/

Obviously this is good news, it just seems like announcement after announcement though, I appreciate these things take time but the dart expansion programme was announced around 4 years ago and we haven't seen a single level crossing removed or over head line installed.

Qrt

It's only really clicked with me now how old the DART trains are. I always find any trip on the DART to be comfortable and haven't really experienced any disruption from breakdowns. Any idea if they'll keep them around when the new order arrives?

devnull

Qrt wrote: »

It's only really clicked with me now how old the DART trains are. I always find any trip on the DART to be comfortable and haven't really experienced any disruption from breakdowns. Any idea if they'll keep them around when the new order arrives?

8100s will probably be withdrawn when the first bach of new trains come onto the rails unfortunately. They really are excellent trains to start off with, but had a very good refurbishment that took place well over 10 years ago now which means they haven't really aged at all.

They look nowhere near 35 years old. Their older brothers and sisters are still running in Hamburg.

Qrt

devnull wrote: »

They look nowhere near 35 years old. Their older brothers and sisters are still running in Hamburg.

On the S-Bahn?

devnull

Qrt wrote: »

On the S-Bahn?

Look at both the LHB U-Bahn sets and the S-Bahn LHB sets and you will see a lot of similar things.

LHB had a design that they constantly but slowly updated for a couple of decades, so it has a fair bit in common with many of their designs.

The DT2 series in particular, now retired, were dead ringers for the 8100, with a different colour scheme:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_U-Bahn_Type_DT2

They managed 50 years in service.

Pete_Cavan

cgcsb wrote: »

Maynooth to Docklands wires need to start going up asap. I presume this doesn't need an extensive public consultation and or a railway order, since it's just an upgrade of an existing asset.

There are a number of very contentious level crossing removals proposed as part of this, expect plenty of local opposition. They always complain about the lack of consultation, even after numerous major consultations have taken place.

marno21

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There are a number of very contentious level crossing removals proposed as part of this, expect plenty of local opposition. They always complain about the lack of consultation, even after numerous major consultations have taken place.

There are 2 options here for the "locals". They can have their pick

1. An alternative to the level crossing such as a bridge is installed with the standard inconvenient cavaets during construction etc

2. The level crossing remains but is closed most of the time to facilitate the thousands more commuters using the railway line than whatever minor road it has a conflict with.

There is no ideal third scenario that keeps everyone happy so that's their simple, binary choice.

Thrashssacre

marno21 wrote: »

There are 2 options here for the "locals". They can have their pick

1. An alternative to the level crossing such as a bridge is installed with the standard inconvenient cavaets during construction etc

2. The level crossing remains but is closed most of the time to facilitate the thousands more commuters using the railway line than whatever minor road it has a conflict with.

There is no ideal third scenario that keeps everyone happy so that's their simple, binary choice.

I don’t think they think about it that hard it’s more of “I don’t like this” and being that use to getting their own way over the years from politicians in the area they just assume they’ll get these “problems” out of the way. And to be honest they probably will.

ciaran75

Anyone know the rough cost per carriage

loyatemu

marno21 wrote: »

There are 2 options here for the "locals". They can have their pick

1. An alternative to the level crossing such as a bridge is installed with the standard inconvenient cavaets during construction etc

2. The level crossing remains but is closed most of the time to facilitate the thousands more commuters using the railway line than whatever minor road it has a conflict with.

There is no ideal third scenario that keeps everyone happy so that's their simple, binary choice.

option 2 is a lose/lose as the train still has to slow for LCs and you have the risk of idiots damaging the barriers etc.