DART+ (DART Expansion)

Sam Russell

ciaran75 wrote: »

Anyone know the rough cost per carriage

Well, the UK are buying loads of them at about £2.5 million per carriage. This was in 2015 - so it equates to about €3.3 million per carriage, given €1= £0.75 at the time).

See here.

New train carriages worth £9.3bn to enter service, rail industry says
The Rail Delivery Group says that more than 3,700 new carriages will be rolling onto Britain's tracks in the next four years.

devnull

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, the UK are buying loads of them at about £2.5 million per carriage. This was in 2015 - so it equates to about €3.3 million per carriage, given €1= £0.75 at the time).

See here.

There's no one fits all answer here unfortunately, it depends on the power source, the length of the carriages, the interior specification just to name a few things.

Getting them to Ireland will be more expensive than getting them to the UK and that will also be reflected in the price you would imagine.

cgcsb

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There are a number of very contentious level crossing removals proposed as part of this, expect plenty of local opposition. They always complain about the lack of consultation, even after numerous major consultations have taken place.

That's fine, the DART isn't a high speed railway so level crossings are fine, at a 10 minute frequency the gates will just be down most of the time. If the locals don't want an alternative bridge, that's grand, more money for other parts of the network.

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

That's fine, the DART isn't a high speed railway so level crossings are fine, at a 10 minute frequency the gates will just be down most of the time. If the locals don't want an alternative bridge, that's grand, more money for other parts of the network.

It's not fine in the sense that there's a significant number of line closures caused by trucks and level crossings colliding. Here's two very recent examples:

https://twitter.com/IrishRail/status/1132970653446037504
https://twitter.com/IrishRail/status/1131139562070261760

murphaph

Level crossings on busy commuter lines are rubbish. There is no long term option but to remove those crossings or close them and divert traffic. They are a weak point that can easily bring the system to a grinding halt.

bk

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

They always complain about the lack of consultation, even after numerous major consultations have taken place.

When they say they weren't "consulted", what they actually mean is:

"You didn't personally call around to my home before the public consultation, where I would have told you I don't want this and go build it somewhere else *".

* Somewhere else because of cause they claim they aren't NIMBY's and they are favour of improved public transport, just not if it somehow minorly inconveniences them!

SeanW

bk wrote: »

When they say they weren't "consulted", what they actually mean is:

"You didn't personally call around to my home before the public consultation, where I would have told you I don't want this and go build it somewhere else *".

* Somewhere else because of cause they claim they aren't NIMBY's and they are favour of improved public transport, just not if it somehow minorly inconveniences them!

QFT!

highdef

SeanW wrote: »

QFT!

QFT????

Rulmeq

highdef wrote: »

QFT????

According to urban dictionary, "quoted for truth"

prunudo

Rulmeq wrote: »

According to urban dictionary, "quoted for truth"

So not the Queens Film Theatre then? Damn google :pac:

SeanW

Rulmeq wrote: »

According to urban dictionary, "quoted for truth"

Yes I thought that was a widely known convention. Basically, you use QFT like that when someone effectively sums something up perfectly or otherwise hits the nail squarely on the head, so to speak.

gjim

Khuitlio wrote: »

If they're relocating the Docklands station could they move it to the the site of the proposed DU station, behind the old LNWR station on North Wall Quay.

Ideally build a cut and cover station box for a 4 platform underground station. Can use two platforms as termini for the new docklands station, while still having room to let a future TMB work through the station for a potential DU project. Could easily be funded by selling the air rights in, and reduces the cost of a future DU.

I know I already replied to this suggestion - along the lines that it's too ambitious compared to just moving the platforms 300m south.

But the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced Khuitlio is absolutely right. Given that DU is decades away, a proper Docklands station in the LNWR station block would be an massively useful addition to the network.

With minimal trackwork, a station here would be able to take trains from the Midlands, Maynooth and Northern lines.

Having the option to terminate Kildare and Maynooth DARTs here instead of Heuston or Connolly/GCD, you can increase the frequency of Maynooth, Kildare DARTs without interfering with other services.

I'm not sure that terminating northern line DARTs here would make sense as a scheduled service but it surely would be useful operationally to have the option.

This location is right in the middle of the Docklands - there are literally 1000s of apartments being built around here and endless offices - I can imagine in a future where instead of being a poor man's Connolly (which is what the Docklands station is now), it will be a very attractive destination in its own right.

As well as the immediate catchment area (including the south docks which will have access via the planned new bridge), an exit from the northern ends of the platforms would connect directly onto the red Luas line.

To be useful, 4 platforms whould be a minimum to support reasonable frequencies. And if the frequencies were good, then getting to Cross Guns/ML from here would be a very attractive option (less than 10 minutes) for people in the catchment area.

It would be an ambitious project but cut n' cover is relatively cheap and now is the time to do it before City Block 2 gets built on. There's at least a hectare if not more development land around the current Docklands station that could be sold - land in that area (e.g. city block 3) is fetching over 50m/hectare.

MJohnston

Was the Docklands station to be cut-and-cover with DARTu, or fully tunnelled? Cut and cover would presumably disrupt the Luas for a short period (although that's not a terrible thing considering how close it is to the start of the line)

thomasj

gjim wrote: »

I know I already replied to this suggestion - along the lines that it's too ambitious compared to just moving the platforms 300m south.

But the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced Khuitlio is absolutely right. Given that DU is decades away, a proper Docklands station in the LNWR station block would be an massively useful addition to the network.

With minimal trackwork, a station here would be able to take trains from the Midlands, Maynooth and Northern lines.

Having the option to terminate Kildare and Maynooth DARTs here instead of Heuston or Connolly/GCD, you can increase the frequency of Maynooth, Kildare DARTs without interfering with other services.

I'm not sure that terminating northern line DARTs here would make sense as a scheduled service but it surely would be useful operationally to have the option.

This location is right in the middle of the Docklands - there are literally 1000s of apartments being built around here and endless offices - I can imagine in a future where instead of being a poor man's Connolly (which is what the Docklands station is now), it will be a very attractive destination in its own right.

As well as the immediate catchment area (including the south docks which will have access via the planned new bridge), an exit from the northern ends of the platforms would connect directly onto the red Luas line.

To be useful, 4 platforms whould be a minimum to support reasonable frequencies. And if the frequencies were good, then getting to Cross Guns/ML from here would be a very attractive option (less than 10 minutes) for people in the catchment area.

It would be an ambitious project but cut n' cover is relatively cheap and now is the time to do it before City Block 2 gets built on. There's at least a hectare if not more development land around the current Docklands station that could be sold - land in that area (e.g. city block 3) is fetching over 50m/hectare.

I can only see this working for Maynooth and Hazelhatch services if it's for additional services or if the reallignment of Connolly was done. It's too remote to be used as a full time terminus for those lines.

Marcusm

SeanW wrote: »

Yes I thought that was a widely known convention. Basically, you use QFT like that when someone effectively sums something up perfectly or otherwise hits the nail squarely on the head, so to speak.

More often it’s used to make a copy of an original post and implies the OP might edit it!

gjim

thomasj wrote: »

I can only see this working for Maynooth and Hazelhatch services if it's for additional services or if the reallignment of Connolly was done.

Sure, it won't suit everyone but indeed the point is that it would allow extra trains to make use of wasted capacity (because of Connolly/the loop line) on the Hazelhatch and Maynooth lines. You could even terminate a small number of northern line trains freeing up a precious slot over the loop line bridge. Without DU, after the DART expansion plan, there'll be lots of unusable capacity in the system. This capacity could be used to provide useful services if a 4+ platform terminating station was built at this location without increasing pressures on any part of the rest of the system.

thomasj wrote: »

It's too remote to be used as a full time terminus for those lines.

Remote is a relative term. Once development is completed in the Spencer Dock SDZ, the East Rd and the Grand Canal area (via the new Liffey bridge planned for New Wapping Street), the catchment area will have more residents and workers within walking distance than Connolly and Tara. The scale of development around the north Docklands is incredible - this will be one of the most densely developed areas of Dublin soon.

Also for someone going to Connolly to get the red Luas or visa versa, it offers a shorter connecting walk. For many currently using GCD, it will be closer using the new bridge. It would offer an 8 minute trip to get to/from metrolink at Cross Guns.

marno21

Timeline for electrification in yesterdays Climate Action Plan

Seek Railway Orders for Maynooth Line (to Maynooth), Kildare Line (to Celbridge) and Northern Line (to Drogheda) - Q4 2021
Commence electrification of first of the three lines - Q1 2023
Complete electrification to Maynooth, Celbridge and Drogheda - Q4 2027

This is comical even by Irish standards in a so called "Climate Action Plan".

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

Timeline for electrification in yesterdays Climate Action Plan

Seek Railway Orders for Maynooth Line (to Maynooth), Kildare Line (to Celbridge) and Northern Line (to Drogheda) - Q4 2021
Commence electrification of first of the three lines - Q1 2023
Complete electrification to Maynooth, Celbridge and Drogheda - Q4 2027

This is comical even by Irish standards in a so called "Climate Action Plan".

There's some sort of random obsession with the year 2027, projects as simple as putting up overhead power for trains (is there a public consultation or planning required??) is stretched out a decade, this work was completed across more/less all of Europe's suburban rail about 80 years ago. The only works impacting the public is level crossings closure. The essential works could start as soon as funding is put in place. Starting in 2023 and finishing in 2027 is abysmal, 20km of electrification per YEAR!! that's about half the pace of construction of the original DART in 1981 to 1984.

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

There's some sort of random obsession with the year 2027, projects as simple as putting up overhead power for trains (is there a public consultation or planning required??) is stretched out a decade, this work was completed across more/less all of Europe's suburban rail about 80 years ago. The only works impacting the public is level crossings closure. The essential works could start as soon as funding is put in place. Starting in 2023 and finishing in 2027 is abysmal, 20km of electrification per YEAR!! that's about half the pace of construction of the original DART in 1981 to 1984.

It gives you little hope for electrification in any meaningful way outside of the GDA and the Cork commuter rail network

cgcsb

I'm wondering why the state is planning to do everything so slowly? is it a case that there's no money? Would it not be better from a political point of view to deliver at least something now, rather than just parroting that everything in Dublin will be ready, randomly by 2027 (which won't be possible at this point given the lack of spades in ground on ANY project). And of course we have CMATS which is a 'plan' to do absolutely nothing between now and 2030. We delivered the M7 widening, the New Ross bypass and the M17 ghost motorway in lightning quick time, but there's basically no interest in projects that affect millions rather than hundreds.

MJohnston

There is money, but the government would rather promise tiny reductions in individual tax liability, instead of actually using the money for collective good. Not that I particularly trust a Fine Gael government to spend tax take on the right things, but I'd rather a pragmatic approach that says "look we're going to give you a bunch of new tram lines around the country, but you won't get a USC cut".

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

There is money, but the government would rather promise tiny reductions in individual tax liability, instead of actually using the money for collective good. Not that I particularly trust a Fine Gael government to spend tax take on the right things, but I'd rather a pragmatic approach that says "look we're going to give you a bunch of new tram lines around the country, but you won't get a USC cut".

Whatever about tax cuts, we have a full spec motorway to Tuam and the metropolis of New Ross will soon have Ireland's (The world's??) most expensive bypass, including a mega structure. :pac: This project cost more than Luas Cross City and will accommodate about 1% of LCC's journeys. There is obviously money being spent on transport, but it's all going on mega road projects with a couple of hundred users in mind. Meanwhile, in locations where this state draws it's revenue, we're told to go and sing for investment, or that we'll start doing something about it in 2030, or that hopefully in a years time we can trial a 24hr bus route. We're never going to catch up to the industrialised world by investing at a slower pace.

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

Whatever about tax cuts, we have a full spec motorway to Tuam and the metropolis of New Ross will soon have Ireland's (The world's??) most expensive bypass, including a mega structure. :pac: This project cost more than Luas Cross City and will accommodate about 1% of LCC's journeys. There is obviously money being spent on transport, but it's all going on mega road projects with a couple of hundred users in mind. Meanwhile, in locations where this state draws it's revenue, we're told to go and sing for investment, or that we'll start doing something about it in 2030, or that hopefully in a years time we can trial a 24hr bus route. We're never going to catch up to the industrialised world by investing at a slower pace.

Well in fairness, New Ross is largely a sunk cost at this point, so even if FG genuinely wanted to invest less in roads, it would be pointless to try and divert it from in-progress projects.

I'd rather see changes to our infrastructure planning processes, so that vital projects aren't mired in endless public consultations over and over again, and subject to the whims of brainless councillors and TDs. I'd imagine there's plenty of money to be saved by doing this too.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

Well in fairness, New Ross is largely a sunk cost at this point, so even if FG genuinely wanted to invest less in roads, it would be pointless to try and divert it from in-progress projects.

Yes at this point, point being the pecking order should be more orientated towards benefits of the project relative to cost.

LeinsterDub

marno21 wrote: »

Timeline for electrification in yesterdays Climate Action Plan

Seek Railway Orders for Maynooth Line (to Maynooth), Kildare Line (to Celbridge) and Northern Line (to Drogheda) - Q4 2021
Commence electrification of first of the three lines - Q1 2023
Complete electrification to Maynooth, Celbridge and Drogheda - Q4 2027

This is comical even by Irish standards in a so called "Climate Action Plan".

It's not electrification , it's part electrification , part of the delay is we are waiting for hybrid trains that don't exist yet.

L1011

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's not electrification , it's part electrification , part of the delay is we are waiting for hybrid trains that don't exist yet.

No, its full electrification to those endpoints - the hybrids is for the likely implausible idea of running to Longford/Newbridge/Dundalk on battery.

is_that_so

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's not electrification , it's part electrification , part of the delay is we are waiting for hybrid trains that don't exist yet.

Well they are set to be under trial at the end of this year so not non-existent. They already run in Germany. 2021 seems to be the planned launch date, all going well.

DoctorPan

L1011 wrote: »

No, its full electrification to those endpoints - the hybrids is for the likely implausible idea of running to Longford/Newbridge/Dundalk on battery.

No, the hybrids were to allow electric running to the endpoints prior to the construction of wires going up due to the long lead times in allocation in funding for purchasing new trains and the long lead times between order and operation of new rail vehicles.

While battery running to Longford/Newbridge/Dundalk might be explored in latter years, they were not the reasoning behind it.

LeinsterDub

is_that_so wrote: »

Well they are set to be under trial at the end of this year so not non-existent. They already run in Germany. 2021 seems to be the planned launch date, all going well.

Planned launch of the DART expansion or the hybrids? Both seem optimistic , have you seen anything official on that?

is_that_so

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Planned launch of the DART expansion or the hybrids? Both seem optimistic , have you seen anything official on that?

Don't know about the DART but here's a piece on the hybrids.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-rail-planning-to-convert-inter-city-rail-fleet-to-hybrid-1.3653378