DART+ (DART Expansion)

Last Stop

donvito99 wrote: »

This is not the plan at all

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-plan-to-link-dublin-airport-with-rest-of-country-30936601.html

donvito99

Last Stop wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-plan-to-link-dublin-airport-with-rest-of-country-30936601.html

The reference to DU is conjecture on the part of the journalist.

Running a Cork-Belfast service thru DU would be so silly, even CIE would balk at it. It'd be Northern Line congestion 2.0. Watch the frequency of a high frequency, circa €4bn tunnel disappear...

Pete_Cavan

Last Stop wrote: »

Tara st is unlikely to have the capacity to handle such a major interchange. It’s quite confined with no room for expansion.

Several buildings beside the station are to be knocked and a plaza created as part of Metrolink. There will be lots of space to increase capacity at Tara Street.

The point of St Stephens Green was to link up with both Luas and metro which increasing the cost benefit ratio so i doubt it will be dropped even if it increases the costs. Plus the fact it’s a stones throw from the Dail.

The Metrolink SSG station isn't being designed to accommodate a DU station, that horse has already bolted. There is no way a second underground station, this one 200m long will be built under SSG. Now that the GL has been extended, the Trinity stop is as close to Tara Street as the GL SSG stop is to the Metrolink SSG East location.

Cutting the length of stations to 4 cars would also be extremely short sighted. Remember that the long term plan is to run intercity services through the tunnel to the airport or Cork-Belfast so I reckon they’ll stick to 8 car.

No, there isn't even a plan to electrify the lines to Cork and Belfast and the airport spur has gone off the radar so that certainly isn't a plan.

I can see a lot of lessons being learned from Metrolink and in all likelihood it will be a single bore from Docklands to Heuston. This would mean only 1 TBM is required and 1 launch site at Docklands so it can go practically anywhere within Heuston. I’d can also see them eyeing up all stations being cut and cover (Heuston, SSG and Docklands being the easy ones) with a relocated one along Cook St in Christchurch a viable option. This leaves the one at Pearse and I just can’t see it happening there which is why I think it will move to GCD with the canal being drained during construction.

Going to GCD would require a ridiculously long tunnel and has less space than Tara for interchange facilities.

bk

There is a reason why they call it DART Underground. It will only ever run DARTs or similar Metro type trains.

Haven't we learnt the lesson of the mistake of trying to mix different services on one line? DART/Suburban/Intercity on one track just doesn't work. You don't see London, etc. trying to run intercity trains through London underground, no that would be crazy.

We will likely see DARTs running at a 5 minute frequency once opened, with an even higher frequency in future as Dublin grows. There simply won't be any space for intercity trains to fit through a tunnel like that.

The article you linked to was a poorly written article. At the time IR were looking to build a connection from the Airport to the Northern line. But it was only for DARTs with no suggestion at all of intercity trains. The NTA did a detailed report on it if you are interested.

The NTA rejected the idea and decided to go with Metrolink instead.

Last Stop

Ah lads, where do is start?!?
Firstly, of course the long term plan is intercity Cork-Belfast trains via the airport. That’s the future of Irish Rail. Cork electrification is on the cards, with the city transport strategies advocating electrification to Mallow and Hazelhatch as the first step. Belfast line will be electrified as far as Drogheda under DART and you can guarantee there will be EU money for the rest given the political significance of such a move.

Secondly, there is a big difference between the congestion on an existing commuter line with local stations every km and a brand new underground tunnel with 5 strategic stations. Even assuming 5 minute DARTs that gives 12 trains per hour per direction. That’s a waste of capacity in a €4bn tunnel. Metro will handle 30 per hour. Look at Luas and it handles 20 per hour on street. I can’t see DARTs going to less than 5 minutes anytime soon given that they just went to 10 minutes, there is little chance of the level crossings on the Bray line being removed and the new DART lines will see a significant increase in service to the Kildare and Maynooth lines. Even assuming 1 intercity per hour per direction, it will not make a major difference to the capacity of the tunnel. It’s approx. 5km long so you’ll only be in it for 10 minutes max and it’s quad tracked either side. This is completely different to running Intercity trains on London Underground as this is a tunnel designed with heavy rail in mind.

Thirdly, of course there will be a station at SSG. That’s the jewel in the crown when it comes to public transport in Ireland. DU will be considerably deeper than Metrolink so won’t be a problem (you hardly thought Irish Rail would bend over to another project if it meant their baby couldn’t go ahead??). The station will be built in the park running along the northern edge. An entrance in the east will link to metro and one on the west to Luas.

Fourthly, there is no way that Tara st could handle such a large interchange. There is no room to widen the platforms never mind add in additional tracks which is what would be needed. Yes Metrolink will be creating a plaza but that still wouldn’t be enough space to expand the Irish Rail infrastructure especially given Ronan’s tower to the north and Trinity to the south.

Fifthly, yes moving to GCD would make the tunnel longer but it would reduce station construction costs and GCD has extra capacity with the extra platform and potential for another with minimal work (especially compared to Tara). The station would have direct access off Barrow St. and Pearse St. so no issues with connectivity.

And I think finally, the NTA rejected the DART airport link based on the fact that it wouldn’t serve the Swords corridor well. I’ve read the report. There are a million and one reasons to built Metrolink but very few rule out DART airport. At €200m it’s incredibly cheap for the impact it would have.

Pete_Cavan

Last Stop wrote: »

Ah lads, where do is start?!?
Firstly, of course the long term plan is intercity Cork-Belfast trains via the airport. That’s the future of Irish Rail.

No it's not. The future is high frequency commuter services in the Dublin and Cork metropolitan areas. I'm sure IR would gladly drop everything else if they could. The rest of your post isn't even worth addressing

Last Stop

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

No it's not. The future is high frequency commuter services in the Dublin and Cork metropolitan areas. I'm sure IR would gladly drop everything else if they could. The rest of your post isn't even worth addressing

Is that just your opinion or do you have anything to back it up?
There is no way Irish Rail will go with a shorter tunnel to Tara St or shorter station box. They will look at other ways of cutting the cost like I’ve mentioned without sacrificing the long term viability of the scheme

Pete_Cavan

Last Stop wrote: »

Is that just your opinion or do you have anything to back it up?
There is no way Irish Rail will go with a shorter tunnel to Tara St or shorter station box. They will look at other ways of cutting the cost like I’ve mentioned without sacrificing the long term viability of the scheme

Are you disputing that it is more efficient to provide mass transit services in urban areas linking residential areas to employment/retail/socialising areas, thereby guaranteeing high numbers of regular journeys, than long distance limited stop services which will mainly serve infrequent journeys? Metrolink backs up that urban transport is the future, if they wanted to serve journeys from cities already with an airport to Dublin Airport, it would be built as heavy rail from Heuston.

And what cost savings have you mentioned? The tunnel and stations will make up the vast majority of the cost, if you aren't making savings on these anything else is a drop in the ocean.

Last Stop

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Are you disputing that it is more efficient to provide mass transit services in urban areas linking residential areas to employment/retail/socialising areas, thereby guaranteeing high numbers of regular journeys, than long distance limited stop services which will mainly serve infrequent journeys? Metrolink backs up that urban transport is the future, if they wanted to serve journeys from cities already with an airport to Dublin Airport, it would be built as heavy rail from Heuston.

And what cost savings have you mentioned? The tunnel and stations will make up the vast majority of the cost, if you aren't making savings on these anything else is a drop in the ocean.

You’re completely missing the point. Of course mass transit is required but that doesn’t mean that intercity transit should be done away with as you are suggesting. Electrifying the Cork Line will reduce journey times. This will significantly increase patronage. Additionally, it would be sensible to run a through service to the airport as is done in countless cities all over the world. This could not be done efficiently from Heuston.

The cost savings I’ve mentioned are the switch to single bore and cut + cover stations. This will save hundreds of millions and reduce the programme. Dropping a station would be a foolish decision especially given the lack of space at Tara. You hardly think metrolink are knocking 60 apartments with the associated cost and bad publicity if they could avoid it by moving a sewer. Plus the fact that DU stations will be 25+m wide means that it simply wouldn’t fit in Townsend St anyway unless you go with a mined station which would be several multiples more expensive!!!

loyatemu

Last Stop wrote: »

Is that just your opinion or do you have anything to back it up?

do you have anything to back up your claim that the tunnel will be used for Cork-Airport services?

cgcsb

IR did indicate they intended to introduce Cork-Dub Airport services via DARTu and an airport spur, but I'd expect that's been deemed impractical. Drogheda-Hazelhatch every 5 mins is much more advantageous. As for long distance rail, a 20 minute frequency service from Dundalk (possibly Belfast) to Cork should run via Drogheda, alongside the M1 to the airport and in a new tunnel to liffey junction and through the PPT (which won't be needed for DART with DARTu in place). This would free up the existing northern line for DARTs every 5 mins, commuters from Drogheda would have a faster option to the City Centre, the airport would be connected to the inter city network and there'd be no mixing of DART and long distance services. Heuston and Connolly would also have lots of free terminal capacity to play with if Cork and Dundalk(maybe Belfast) services don't have to turn around there.

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

do you have anything to back up your claim that the tunnel will be used for Cork-Airport services?

It was in IR's 2011 network review. But I think has since been quietly dropped.

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

IR did indicate they intended to introduce Cork-Dub Airport services via DARTu and an airport spur, but I'd expect that's been deemed impractical.

I'd agree with this. Unless it's run as a shuttle service, adding more trains and another junction onto the northern line will just make the service worse for all involved.

cgcsb wrote: »

Drogheda-Hazelhatch every 5 mins is much more advantageous. As for long distance rail, a 20 minute frequency service from Dundalk (possibly Belfast) to Cork should run via Drogheda, alongside the M1 to the airport and in a new tunnel to liffey junction and through the PPT (which won't be needed for DART with DARTu in place).

Don't think this is going to happen though, they've clearly stated that the PPT is now part of the DART network, and they're even looking to add more stations in there, like OPW wanting a Pheonix Park/Zoo station. Even the recent update from Engineers Ireland (I think? Can't remember who gave it) has the tunnel as part of the Dart network.


I'm also not sure that I see the benefit of a spur to Dublin Airport anyway, between Metrolink and DU, every major line will be connected to the Airport with a single change. Once those two projects are done, there's a long list of rail projects around the country that I'd do before looking at a spur or line to Dublin Airport.

Pete_Cavan

Last Stop wrote: »

You’re completely missing the point. Of course mass transit is required but that doesn’t mean that intercity transit should be done away with as you are suggesting.

I did not suggest that "intercity transit should be done away with", that is a ridiculous claim and shows how badly your straw clutching is going.

Electrifying the Cork Line will reduce journey times. This will significantly increase patronage. Additionally, it would be sensible to run a through service to the airport as is done in countless cities all over the world. This could not be done efficiently from Heuston.

Given electrifying 20km of track on approach to Dublin is going to take the best part of a decade, the Cork line is unlikely to be electrified this century. A far more common situation is for passengers to switch from intercity trains to airport trains.

The cost savings I’ve mentioned are the switch to single bore and cut + cover stations. This will save hundreds of millions and reduce the programme.

You have just taken things from Metrolink and applied them to DU. Metrolink is a entirely new build light rail system, it is not comparable to a tunnel linking existing heavy rail lines. Engineering will determine the type and number of tunnels required for DU.

Dropping a station would be a foolish decision especially given the lack of space at Tara. You hardly think metrolink are knocking 60 apartments with the associated cost and bad publicity if they could avoid it by moving a sewer. Plus the fact that DU stations will be 25+m wide means that it simply wouldn’t fit in Townsend St anyway unless you go with a mined station which would be several multiples more expensive!!!

Your solution involves digging up SSG after a Metro station has already been built there, hardly better publicity! Plus draining the canal to build a station there.

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

Don't think this is going to happen though, they've clearly stated that the PPT is now part of the DART network, and they're even looking to add more stations in there, like OPW wanting a Pheonix Park/Zoo station. Even the recent update from Engineers Ireland (I think? Can't remember who gave it) has the tunnel as part of the Dart network.

Perhaps some other route for express trains will be needed then, but of course this is way in the future. The commuter rail network is more important.

CatInABox wrote: »

I'm also not sure that I see the benefit of a spur to Dublin Airport anyway, between Metrolink and DU, every major line will be connected to the Airport with a single change. Once those two projects are done, there's a long list of rail projects around the country that I'd do before looking at a spur or line to Dublin Airport.

I agree a spur is pointless, a through route would be much more useful in connecting the airport to intercity rail. Of course y this time, Dublin Airport will be a mega hub in it's own right.

ncounties

cgcsb wrote: »

Perhaps some other route for express trains will be needed then, but of course this is way in the future. The commuter rail network is more important.



I agree a spur is pointless, a through route would be much more useful in connecting the airport to intercity rail. Of course y this time, Dublin Airport will be a mega hub in it's own right.

Personally, I feel the best solution, for interconnectivity between Dublin Airport and heavy rail/DART services, especially post expansion of the DART and DARTU, is an extension of Metro Link to Donabate. This would immediately provide interconnectivity with Intercity and Commuter services, as well as the DART services longer term.

Maximum additional capacity connected, with a relatively minimal cost, compared to other schemes.

cgcsb

ncounties wrote: »

Personally, I feel the best solution, for interconnectivity between Dublin Airport and heavy rail/DART services, especially post expansion of the DART and DARTU, is an extension of Metro Link to Donabate. This would immediately provide interconnectivity with Intercity and Commuter services, as well as the DART services longer term.

Maximum additional capacity connected, with a relatively minimal cost, compared to other schemes.

It'd be a cost effective way to give passengers from the north easy access to the airport, avoiding the city centre, but it doesn't solve the bigger problems of Intercity rail, main problem being there's no space for IC trains to get into the City with all the commuter trains and it does nothing for access from the rest of country.

Last Stop

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I did not suggest that "intercity transit should be done away with", that is a ridiculous claim and shows how badly your straw clutching is going.

You said “I’m sure Irish Raul would drop everything else if they could” I interpreted that as dropping intercity services?

[/quote]Given electrifying 20km of track on approach to Dublin is going to take the best part of a decade, the Cork line is unlikely to be electrified this century. A far more common situation is for passengers to switch from intercity trains to airport trains. [/quote]

Potentially yes but my point was that the LONG TERM plan is for intercity to airport and it would be foolish to reduce the station length

[/quote]You have just taken things from Metrolink and applied them to DU. Metrolink is a entirely new build light rail system, it is not comparable to a tunnel linking existing heavy rail lines. Engineering will determine the type and number of tunnels required for DU. [/quote]

Again you’re missing the point. A single bore tunnel requires no cross passages which reduces the work involved. Cut and cover stations are a multiple cheaper than mined ones so the argument is extremely valid. I did make the point that there will be lessons learned from metrolink and you’ll note that the tunnel strategy done for metrolink also considered DU
[/quote]Your solution involves digging up SSG after a Metro station has already been built there, hardly better publicity! Plus draining the canal to build a station there.[/quote]

There’s a huge difference between digging up a green and canal for 2 years compared to permanent buying 70 apartments!!

Pete_Cavan

What is the problem of intercity rail people are trying to solve? If it's capacity for services in/out of Dublin, the additional quad tracking into Heuston will help and new Glasnevin station improving things for Sligo trains. Northern line will always be constrained but a passing line at Clongriffin, another at Fairview and moving DART terminus away from Malahide and having a dedicated turnback platform will help, Howth shuttle would be another easy win (although politically difficult).

Dublin is linked to almost all major population centres by motorway and buses provide a cheaper and often faster alternative. For airport services, changing from heavy rail to direct airport service or direct bus from most large towns is more than adequate.

DU is about increased frequency DART services, there is no need to complicate things (and delay it even further) by worrying about services which are unlikely to be possible this century anyway.

Pete_Cavan

Last Stop wrote: »

[There’s a huge difference between digging up a green and canal for 2 years compared to permanent buying 70 apartments!!

Better cancel Metrolink so!

Zebra3

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What is the problem of intercity rail people are trying to solve? If it's capacity for services in/out of Dublin, the additional quad tracking into Heuston will help and new Glasnevin station improving things for Sligo trains. Northern line will always be constrained but a passing line at Clongriffin, another at Fairview and moving DART terminus away from Malahide and having a dedicated turnback platform will help, Howth shuttle would be another easy win (although politically difficult).

Dublin is linked to almost all major population centres by motorway and buses provide a cheaper and often faster alternative. For airport services, changing from heavy rail to direct airport service or direct bus from most large towns is more than adequate.

DU is about increased frequency DART services, there is no need to complicate things (and delay it even further) by worrying about services which are unlikely to be possible this century anyway.

I think some are trying to solve the "how do we serve Dublin airport on a Cork to Belfast service?" even though nobody posed the conundrum.

cgcsb

Zebra3 wrote: »

I think some are trying to solve the "how do we serve Dublin airport on a Cork to Belfast service?" even though nobody posed the conundrum.

Its more about separating the intercity and DART networks so they don't trip each other up and providing good service on both.

end of the road

Last Stop wrote: »

You said “I’m sure Irish Raul would drop everything else if they could” I interpreted that as dropping intercity services?

to be fair that is not him saying that it should be done, but that IE would do it if they could, which they most likely would. as they have little interest in running rail really.

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

Its more about separating the intercity and DART networks so they don't trip each other up and providing good service on both.

4 tracking into Heuston is planned. Something will have to be done on the northern line too as previously discussed.

On the Sligo and (particularly) Wexford lines - TBH the inter-city services are just going to have to play second fiddle to the commuter services. The number of people using the Wexford trains south of Wicklow is tiny, and the amount of money required to improve the service significantly would be huge (the Enniscorthy bypass is opening next week which is going to make the train service even less attractive compared to the bus).

D.L.R.

loyatemu wrote: »

4 tracking into Heuston is planned. Something will have to be done on the northern line too as previously discussed.

On the Sligo and (particularly) Wexford lines - TBH the inter-city services are just going to have to play second fiddle to the commuter services.

You can get a train from Dublin to Rosslare ferryport, but you can't get one to Dublin ferryport :pac:

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

4 tracking into Heuston is planned. Something will have to be done on the northern line too as previously discussed.
.

I would prefer a new line built between Drogheda and the City on a more inland route, it'd provide a much better service than squezing in some passing loops on the existing route.

ciaran75

What is the frequency of maynooth line once complete? with Sligo / Longford trains sharing same tracks will this have much impact.

No mention of 4 tracking this line, dont think any room either

donvito99

Maybe the government dropped DU in 2015 when they heard that IÉ intended to run a €4bn tunnel at reduced frequency so as to allow people from Ballybrophy a direct train to the Airport for some reason...

Irish people's aversion to the well worn system of changing between high frequency, segregated transport modes is fascinating.

Last Stop

Let me clarify my point AGAIN.
It would incredibly foolish and short sighted for Irish Rail to build shorter station boxes which could only handle 4 car DARTs as was suggested when there are several other ways to reduce the price of DU.
Whether or not they choose to run intercity trains through the tunnel is frankly irrelevant but why would they restrict themselves from having that option in the future?
Personally, I see no reason why they wouldn’t run an hourly Cork-Belfast train though the tunnel along with 5 minute DARTs. This would still be well below the capacity of the tunnel. With quad tracking either side, it would work just fine.

Last Stop

ciaran75 wrote: »

What is the frequency of maynooth line once complete? with Sligo / Longford trains sharing same tracks will this have much impact.

No mention of 4 tracking this line, dont think any room either

It will be 4 track from Glasnevin all the way to Connolly/Docklands