DART+ (DART Expansion)

D.L.R.

gobshyte nation

LXFlyer

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, this kind of thing is the only thing that they can do, but I can't see this making any difference at all.

I suspect the real reasoning behind this isn't to actually make a difference, it's so that Irish Rail have something to point to and say that they're trying.

It’s also a way of making a point to the politicians.

Grandeeod

D.L.R. wrote: »

gobshyte nation

Always was and always will be. When the next economic downturn arrives, even the dumbed down DART expansion will be mothballed.

prunudo

LXFlyer wrote: »

It’s also a way of making a point to the politicians.

They won't care, gets them off the hook.
Why is it that there is absolutely no political will in this country to build proper and future proofed infrastructure. Everything is a mess, from town planning to public transport, the whole lot is a shambles. Threads on this and the roads forum aren't good for people who like engineering and progress.

Edit. Actually I'm wrong, they're great for engineering as there's so many revised plans that we can discuss the details again and again and again. Just no actual progress.

blanch152

CatInABox wrote: »

The inevitable consequence of decades of next to zero investment in our rail service has finally come to fruition in an official way. Our peak hours Dart service is now so below capacity that they've had to set up a website encouraging people to stagger their morning commutes. How utterly depressing and how utterly predictable.

The Irish Times have the report here.

The actual website is peaktime.ie.

Dart Expansion programme can't come soon enough.

They should eliminate free pass travel during commute times on the DART.

It was done before, and there are alternatives.

Sam Russell

blanch152 wrote: »

They should eliminate free pass travel during commute times on the DART.

It was done before, and there are alternatives.

It used to be the terms - no use before 9:30am or between 4:30 and 7 pm (or something like that).

The problem with that is having children with FTP going to school, and the afternoon block stranding people on their return journey. Of course, discounted fares for FTP holders might also work to cover this.

Making FTP only valid after 9 am or 9:30 might be workable, and special passes for school kids to get to and from school.

Hospital appointments is another special case that would need dealing with.

It is all doable - apart from the political backlash.

Oasis_Dublin

LXFlyer wrote: »

It’s also a way of making a point to the politicians.

On this point, is there a political party in Ireland that is in favour of trains?

Fine Gael has pumped billions into road projects like the N11, Tuam Bypass, the N25 upgrade, N7 upgrade etc etc.

Fianna Fáil obviously historically closed thousands of kilometres of line, and Fin Gael are merely continuing their motordom obsession.

The Greens are obviously pro-rail, but will never be a large enough party to really matter, in terms of directing the policy of a government.

Sinn Féin appear to be consistently down in the polls. but they possibly have the advantage of looking at things on an all-island basis. Like the Greens though, you'd be surprised to see them being very relevant when it comes to who will have the office of Taoiseach after the next election.

So are to just have no hope, or where do we look?

end of the road

blanch152 wrote: »

They should eliminate free pass travel during commute times on the DART.

It was done before, and there are alternatives.

it was done before yes, however it achieved nothing hence it was abolished. all reintroducing it would do is give a few some instant gratification for a day or so, until the realities set in that the services are just as overcrowded and under capacity and nothing has changed.
there are no alternatives for someone who has to travel at a certain time. for those who don't have to, chances are that they are already traveling outside peak hours.

Pete_Cavan

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

The Greens are obviously pro-rail, but will never be a large enough party to really matter, in terms of directing the policy of a government.

Experience from Metrolink shows that the Greens are anything but pro rail.

Oasis_Dublin

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Experience from Metrolink shows that the Greens are anything but pro rail.

I'm out of the loop here, and I'm still not sure what you mean after some online searching.

I know that Eamon Ryan disappeared into some mé-féin, looking after his own constituents-type politics, with his push from services out to Knocklyon. Was that anti-railways, or have I missed something?!

donvito99

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

I'm out of the loop here, and I'm still not sure what you mean after some online searching.

I know that Eamon Ryan disappeared into some mé-féin, looking after his own constituents-type politics, with his push from services out to Knocklyon. Was that anti-railways, or have I missed something?!

He put his seat ahead of an affordable, funded capacity upgrade of the Luas Green Line. He veiled this with unfunded, unplanned, nonsense, "everybody gets a Metro" type proposal which was hoovered up by the anti-bus connects/metro types who live 10mins walk from St Stephen's Green and love their luas service ('cause they use it off-peak no doubt).

Shameless from a party that loves to talk about public transport.

MJohnston

I wouldn't call him anti-railways, but he certainly decided not to pragmatically embrace the current Metrolink plan, and help get it built. He could easily have proposed all his crayon routes AND backed the Metrolink plan as-is, and said that the other routes should be built as separate following projects. But, no.

So, not anti-railways, just not particularly smart.

Anyway, I'm a Social Democrats member, and one of the main reasons is that they're very pro-public transport. If you don't think the smaller parties can effect change, that's fair enough, but I think a coalition that featured either them or the Greens would push either FF or FG far enough in the right direction on transport to get Metrolink across the finish line.

It'd probably destroy the minority partners in the process, because the general public are ****e at understanding pragmatic politics, but I think they should take the risk for what's at stake here.

Shedite27

donvito99 wrote: »

He put his seat ahead of an affordable, funded capacity upgrade of the Luas Green Line. He veiled this with unfunded, unplanned, nonsense, "everybody gets a Metro" type proposal which was hoovered up by the anti-bus connects/metro types who live 10mins walk from St Stephen's Green and love their luas service ('cause they use it off-peak no doubt).

Shameless from a party that loves to talk about public transport.

I know he went about it in a stupid way, but sayign "everyone should get rail" can't be seen as "anti rail". He's a nut job, yes, but not "anti rail"

Grandeeod

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

On this point, is there a political party in Ireland that is in favour of trains?

Fine Gael has pumped billions into road projects like the N11, Tuam Bypass, the N25 upgrade, N7 upgrade etc etc.

Fianna Fáil obviously historically closed thousands of kilometres of line, and Fin Gael are merely continuing their motordom obsession.

The Greens are obviously pro-rail, but will never be a large enough party to really matter, in terms of directing the policy of a government.

Sinn Féin appear to be consistently down in the polls. but they possibly have the advantage of looking at things on an all-island basis. Like the Greens though, you'd be surprised to see them being very relevant when it comes to who will have the office of Taoiseach after the next election.

So are to just have no hope, or where do we look?

No political will from any party. I'll spare you a complete history and take up the story from the late 1990s. FF did what they did after the network was so shambolic, that money was there to make it safe. That's the network we have now. From the same regime we got, Dunboyne, Midleton and the WRC from Ennis to Athenry with the Greens fecked in at the latter stages. The Greens salivated over the WRC, while Dublin sunk under a network not fit for purpose. Then recession. Then a FG lead Government. Then a FG lead Government propped up. A bit of luas. MN cancelled and then reinvented. Metrolink. DU cancelled and DART expansion promoted instead. The wheel re-invented over and over. None of them will ever deliver anything but road projects. Next recession/downturn is on the horizon. It's being talked about. The chances are there for all to see. When it happens, kiss your ass goodbye to Metrolink and DART expansion. Wash. Rince. Repeat.

salmocab

Shedite27 wrote: »

I know he went about it in a stupid way, but sayign "everyone should get rail" can't be seen as "anti rail". He's a nut job, yes, but not "anti rail"

Really what he was saying is I don’t give a toss about public transport but here is s drawing done with crayons that goes all around the Southside but keeps my votes.

Oasis_Dublin

Grandeeod wrote: »

No political will from any party. I'll spare you a complete history and take up the story from the late 1990s. FF did what they did after the network was so shambolic, that money was there to make it safe. That's the network we have now. From the same regime we got, Dunboyne, Midleton and the WRC from Ennis to Athenry with the Greens fecked in at the latter stages. The Greens salivated over the WRC, while Dublin sunk under a network not fit for purpose. Then recession. Then a FG lead Government. Then a FG lead Government propped up. A bit of luas. MN cancelled and then reinvented. Metrolink. DU cancelled and DART expansion promoted instead. The wheel re-invented over and over. None of them will ever deliver anything but road projects. Next recession/downturn is on the horizon. It's being talked about. The chances are there for all to see. When it happens, kiss your ass goodbye to Metrolink and DART expansion. Wash. Rince. Repeat.

As I assumed so!

So who should we vote for then? Or it basing upon a party's public transport policies a bit naive/hopeful?

gjim

Shedite27 wrote: »

I know he went about it in a stupid way, but sayign "everyone should get rail" can't be seen as "anti rail". He's a nut job, yes, but not "anti rail"

Not intentionally no. Trying not to be a cynic, I believe he probably has all the best intentions with respect to rail based PT - but I think it's fair to say that his actions have not improved the prospects for the development of rail in Dublin.

More scribbling of routes on maps is damaging at this stage - it creates uncertainty and paralysis. This "back to the drawing board" routine has been done over and over by politicians - both pro and anti-rail - for the last 40 or so years. Regardless of the motivation the end result is the same - little gets actually developed. A pro-rail party would push for budget and expedited start dates for the existing engineered/studied proposals, not unintentionally set the clock back another 10 years.

Siding with the Ranelagh NIMBYS to block 8km of metro because closing a minor single-lane suburban level crossing would disrupt car traffic was hardly a pro-rail action - even if you hide behind proposing a bunch of vaguely defined alternative possible metro-lines.

The Greens are missing a trick here - a small party in PR political system can do well if it's seen to be principled about its convictions. Their intervention against ML just looked like opportunistic local politicking.

Grandeeod

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

As I assumed so!

So who should we vote for then? Or it basing upon a party's public transport policies a bit naive/hopeful?

You answered your own question.;)

Idbatterim

The greens received a boost in the local ejections , because people are becoming more concerned about the environment. Our Green Party are a joke. Against anything green parties in other countries would stand for! Ask them what their opinion on four floor “ high rise “ in the suburbs is , metro link. Do they even propose a refundable bottle tax here, the place is covered in them ?

L1011

Idbatterim wrote: »

Do they even propose a refundable bottle tax here, the place is covered in them ?

There is a Green & Labour bill for this that the cabinet/Taoiseach is blocking.

MrAbyss

salmocab wrote: »

Really what he was saying is I don’t give a toss about public transport but here is s drawing done with crayons that goes all around the Southside but keeps my votes.

<snip>

Mod: Do not post libelous statements about public figures.

Idbatterim

cant get the crucial dart underground bit, in fact every area here is starved of funding, and that fool actually thinks there is money now, to add billions to a project? Christ there will be an election next year, booming economy, no room for income tax cuts in budget 2020 , in the last budget before the election and this bloody delusional fool, wants to add billions in cost?!

Why dont we throw in a high speed rail line from donegal to kerry via cork while we are at it?! :rolleyes:

MrAbyss

I recall Ciaran Cuffe back in the day telling people he was not interesting in public transport issues in Dublin and did not support them (where he lives and represents!) and then was on some RTE muck special about the Western Rail Corridor and he was nearly having an orgasm being shown how the metropolis of Swinford would be back in the rail map.

I am always amazed how people who are pro rail would ever vote for any Irish Green politician. They are perhaps the most anti rail party in the country when you factor in that supporting rail is a core issue with green policies world wide. The other parties do not care about rail and more or less say so. The Greens claim they do, and this makes them much worse. If you haven't got this message by now, you never will.

cameramonkey

MrAbyss wrote: »

I would even go as far as saying that Ryan is mentally ill. I know this is not the thing to say, but that south Dublin crayon episode and how he rationalized it was the behaviour of a mad man. He talked endless amounts of word salad to the point that it was clear he himself did not even know what he say saying. It was the political version of an insane person walking down the street shouting a conversation back at themselves. As far as I am concerned he is unfit to hold office. I am very serious when I say this.

Anytime I see him on TV or hear him on radio I turn off. He seems to be a fanatical zealot incapable of listing to another point of view, he is lacking in an self analysis or rationality. I would have a lot of time for environmental issues but I wouldn't vote for him in a million years.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we eave politics to the politics forum, please. This is about Dart Expansion. , public figures deserve some respect (since they are not able to answer)

Idbatterim

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Can we eave politics to the politics forum, please. This is about Dart Expansion. , public figures deserve some respect (since they are not able to answer)

yes ill drop it, but its hard not to bring politics into it, when it is purely political as to why this isnt either built or under construction...

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

yes ill drop it, but its hard not to bring politics into it, when it is purely political as to why this isnt either built or under construction...

Wasting your time typing buddy. When those that display interest and knowledge in these projects accept and allow discussion about the political aspects, it may make things an election issue. It helps gain traction. 10 years from now I expect this thread and others to be discussing the latest spoof job with new posters, not wanting to accept the absolute reality of how it is in Ireland.

We love crayons in Eire.:rolleyes:

spacetweek

There's so little progress on this project that I only check in on this thread every few months, but my word is it depressing.

I'm worried that DART expansion is due to begin by 2021, but also Metrolink. This town ain't big enough for the both of those projects to be underway simultaneously, I'd wager.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

There's so little progress on this project that I only check in on this thread every few months, but my word is it depressing.

I'm worried that DART expansion is due to begin by 2021, but also Metrolink. This town ain't big enough for the both of those projects to be underway simultaneously, I'd wager.

DART Expansion is a multi-faceted project that doesn't require a lump sum approach ala Metrolink. There's level crossing closures, signalling upgrades, fleet renewal, stations etc that can be advanced in phases. Metrolink is a much more black and white project

But yes, it is disappointing the progress in DART Expansion to date.

Sam Russell

Grandeeod wrote: »

Wasting your time typing buddy. When those that display interest and knowledge in these projects accept and allow discussion about the political aspects, it may make things an election issue. It helps gain traction. 10 years from now I expect this thread and others to be discussing the latest spoof job with new posters, not wanting to accept the absolute reality of how it is in Ireland.

We love crayons in Eire.:rolleyes:

Mod: Backseat modding is not appreciated. Use the report function or PM a mod. I always answer.

However, I get your frustration, but if you want politics, go to the politics forum and open a thread there.

Naming a public figure and suggesting they have mental problems is not acceptable. Any more and bans will be issued.