DART+ (DART Expansion)

Sam Russell

Mod: I have deleted some posts. Any more nonsense and bans will follow.

ciaran75

Any idea can the Connolly resignaling project start before rest of dart expansion. every morning sit outside Connolly for about 5 mins waiting on platform.

LeinsterDub

spacetweek wrote: »

There's so little progress on this project that I only check in on this thread every few months, but my word is it depressing.

I'm worried that DART expansion is due to begin by 2021, but also Metrolink. This town ain't big enough for the both of those projects to be underway simultaneously, I'd wager.

Aren't they just calling the order they've made for sufficient rolling stock for the current DART as the start of the expansion?

spacetweek

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Aren't they just calling the order they've made for sufficient rolling stock for the current DART as the start of the expansion?

OK, maybe, but I thought major moves were due to start on DART in 2021. But by that year there'll probably be a mild recession. And Metrolink trying to get in on the act.

Last Stop

spacetweek wrote: »

OK, maybe, but I thought major moves were due to start on DART in 2021. But by that year there'll probably be a mild recession. And Metrolink trying to get in on the act.

DART expansion can be broken down into several smaller projects and delivered on a phased basis. Unfortunately Metrolink cannot.
The way the have tendered the works, it looks like it’s broken up based on the lines with the Maynooth line first, then the Kildare line etc.
The Maynooth line can also be further broken down into smaller parts such as level crossing removal and then electrification. Given the significant works Metrolink have at Glasnevin, I’d imagine Irish Rail will be holding off electrification until after those works are substantially complete.
They will also want to coincide the electrification with the deliver of the new EMUs
So you could look at the following phasing starting in 2021:
Phase 1: Maynooth level crossing removal
Phase 2: Heuston 4 tracking
Phase 3: Kildare line electrification
Phase 4: Maynooth line electrification
Each of these phases could take 18 months or longer so the budget can be well spread.

Zebra3

One could argue that ML has already been broken into two phases....

Last Stop

Zebra3 wrote: »

One could argue that ML has already been broken into two phases....

One could but in the overall scheme of things the green line was only around 5% of the budget so it’s still a 3bn project to get from Swords to Charlemont and you can’t break that up anymore (at least not sensibly).

DART on the other hand could be broken up as I’ve suggested with each individual phase bringing benefits regardless of whether the other phases proceed or not.

MJohnston

You can't break up the work on Metrolink, but it can certainly be phased in terms of cost over many years. Which is really the important bit.

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

You can't break up the work on Metrolink, but it can certainly be phased in terms of cost over many years. Which is really the important bit.

Not really because it’s not a PPP. The government are borrowing anyway so it wouldn’t really make much sense to take out a loan specifically for Metrolink. The cost won’t all come in 2021 but it will all have to be paid by 2027.

MJohnston

Nah, they'll spread the costs over several years as they did with Luas Cross City, and it won't necessarily have to be paid up when the project is done. LCC still had budget expenditure in 2018, for example.

DoctorPan

Last Stop wrote: »

DART expansion can be broken down into several smaller projects and delivered on a phased basis. Unfortunately Metrolink cannot.
The way the have tendered the works, it looks like it’s broken up based on the lines with the Maynooth line first, then the Kildare line etc.
The Maynooth line can also be further broken down into smaller parts such as level crossing removal and then electrification. Given the significant works Metrolink have at Glasnevin, I’d imagine Irish Rail will be holding off electrification until after those works are substantially complete.
They will also want to coincide the electrification with the deliver of the new EMUs
So you could look at the following phasing starting in 2021:
Phase 1: Maynooth level crossing removal
Phase 2: Heuston 4 tracking
Phase 3: Kildare line electrification
Phase 4: Maynooth line electrification
Each of these phases could take 18 months or longer so the budget can be well spread.

Maynooth Electrification & associated works is the first phase, tender closed Monday.

Pete_Cavan

The Maynooth electrification and Kildare line electrification can and shouldbbe progressed as standalone projects. Assuming that the Maynooth line is electrified to Glasnevin Junction and tracks there rearranged as part of Metrolink Enabling Works, each can progress entirely independent of the other. Both need to be progressed in tandem and not worry about phasing.

In terms of the Maynooth line, electrification is the priority. Level crossing removal can come later and will be easier to get through if the roads are closed for longer periods due to increased train frequency.

Last Stop

DoctorPan wrote: »

Maynooth Electrification & associated works is the first phase, tender closed Monday.

Design tender not construction works

Last Stop

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The Maynooth electrification and Kildare line electrification can and shouldbbe progressed as standalone projects. Assuming that the Maynooth line is electrified to Glasnevin Junction and tracks there rearranged as part of Metrolink Enabling Works, each can progress entirely independent of the other. Both need to be progressed in tandem and not worry about phasing.

In terms of the Maynooth line, electrification is the priority. Level crossing removal can come later and will be easier to get through if the roads are closed for longer periods due to increased train frequency.

Electrifying to Glasnevin junction first would have zero benefit.
1) you couldn’t run EMU trains on it as the last stop would be Broomsbridge and the real demand even with LCC is Maynooth to Connolly
2) you mightn’t have any EMUs to run on it as the order will take several years to deliver.
Removing the level crossings allows for increased frequencies and improved safety. Delaying it until after electrification would add complications and risk to the construction as you now have HV wires in the way when lifting in bridge beams for example.

The works at Glasnevin will need careful coordination. The Metrolink station will have to be constructed, the new DART platforms, are the Irish Rail tracks even at the same level there? If not they will have to be regraded.
Metrolink will start construction in 2021. Since it’s tunnelling from Northwood, the first station to be constructed will be Ballymun. Glasnevin will be 4th on the list. I’d imagine it will get priority but you’re still talking 2 years for station construction and it would be very foolish to spend any money on DART at that location before that. So you’re talking about 2023 at the earliest before any electrification works can realistically begin so it would make the most sense to remove the level crossings first.

Pete_Cavan

Last Stop wrote: »

Electrifying to Glasnevin junction first would have zero benefit.
1) you couldn’t run EMU trains on it as the last stop would be Broomsbridge and the real demand even with LCC is Maynooth to Connolly
2) you mightn’t have any EMUs to run on it as the order will take several years to deliver.
Removing the level crossings allows for increased frequencies and improved safety. Delaying it until after electrification would add complications and risk to the construction as you now have HV wires in the way when lifting in bridge beams for example.

The works at Glasnevin will need careful coordination. The Metrolink station will have to be constructed, the new DART platforms, are the Irish Rail tracks even at the same level there? If not they will have to be regraded.
Metrolink will start construction in 2021. Since it’s tunnelling from Northwood, the first station to be constructed will be Ballymun. Glasnevin will be 4th on the list. I’d imagine it will get priority but you’re still talking 2 years for station construction and it would be very foolish to spend any money on DART at that location before that. So you’re talking about 2023 at the earliest before any electrification works can realistically begin so it would make the most sense to remove the level crossings first.

Glasnevin Junction and the new Glasnevin station requires substantial alterations and realignments to allow for the Metrolink station construction. This work could include the civil works for electrical infrastructure (ducting, earthing, bases for overhead cable supports, etc). The cabling is straightforward if the infrastructure is there to receive it.

My point is that this section is the interdependency between the Maynooth and Kildare line electrifications. If enabling works are done here, either can proceed without waiting for the other. The issue with having something as a first phase is that if it gets held up, everything is held up.

Everything needs to proceed in tandem with interdependencies done separately so that one hold up doesn't stop other works. It is inevitable that issues will arise to delay some sections but this should not delay everything else. Level crossing removal on the Maynooth line is likely to be a significant source of delays, if this delays electrification of the line then the Kildare line gets delayed because it shares the Maynooth line from Glasnevin south. Both electrifications should plough on regardless of the other.

Upping the frequency on the Maynooth line before the level crossings are removed will make the locals get realistic about the removal, opposing everything won't be an option.

CatInABox

Last Stop wrote: »

Electrifying to Glasnevin junction first would have zero benefit.
1) you couldn’t run EMU trains on it as the last stop would be Broomsbridge and the real demand even with LCC is Maynooth to Connolly
2) you mightn’t have any EMUs to run on it as the order will take several years to deliver.
Removing the level crossings allows for increased frequencies and improved safety. Delaying it until after electrification would add complications and risk to the construction as you now have HV wires in the way when lifting in bridge beams for example.

The works at Glasnevin will need careful coordination. The Metrolink station will have to be constructed, the new DART platforms, are the Irish Rail tracks even at the same level there? If not they will have to be regraded.
Metrolink will start construction in 2021. Since it’s tunnelling from Northwood, the first station to be constructed will be Ballymun. Glasnevin will be 4th on the list. I’d imagine it will get priority but you’re still talking 2 years for station construction and it would be very foolish to spend any money on DART at that location before that. So you’re talking about 2023 at the earliest before any electrification works can realistically begin so it would make the most sense to remove the level crossings first.

Glasnevin Junction works include redoing the junction west of the station first, allowing trains from both lines to use the docklands line. The Drumcondra line is to be removed while station works are ongoing, with it to be regraded as construction is finished.

This means that the Docklands line can remain operational during Metrolink Construction. I wouldn't be surprised to see the line electrified during this time, what with it being worked on anyway.

There will obviously be some disruption during construction, ranging from minor to major. I'd imagine no weekend running for one.

Last Stop

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Glasnevin Junction and the new Glasnevin station requires substantial alterations and realignments to allow for the Metrolink station construction. This work could include the civil works for electrical infrastructure (ducting, earthing, bases for overhead cable supports, etc). The cabling is straightforward if the infrastructure is there to receive it.

My point is that this section is the interdependency between the Maynooth and Kildare line electrifications. If enabling works are done here, either can proceed without waiting for the other. The issue with having something as a first phase is that if it gets held up, everything is held up.

Everything needs to proceed in tandem with interdependencies done separately so that one hold up doesn't stop other works. It is inevitable that issues will arise to delay some sections but this should not delay everything else. Level crossing removal on the Maynooth line is likely to be a significant source of delays, if this delays electrification of the line then the Kildare line gets delayed because it shares the Maynooth line from Glasnevin south. Both electrifications should plough on regardless of the other.

Upping the frequency on the Maynooth line before the level crossings are removed will make the locals get realistic about the removal, opposing everything won't be an option.

But you could electrify the Kildare line between Hazelhatch and Heuston as a single phase meaning you could run EMUs on that stretch. You could then electrify the PPT as part of the Maynooth line electrification phase. Doing it as you suggest would prevent them doing that until all electrification on both lines is complete. This would mean that either any EMUs you order would be sitting idle for a number of years until electrification or there is no increase in capacity on what is an already congested line.
Electrifying the PPT isn’t really that important tbh as there won’t be that many trains passing through it. Connolly and the loop line bridge is the pinch point and can only handle so many trains. This is why Dart Underground is needed.

What makes you think that the level crossings will have delays? Arguably its one of the easier parts of the job as Irish Rail have significant experience in removing them. Excavating a station and track realignment is on the other hand extremely complex. I agree they could put in the civils works as part of Metrolink but that will take until 2023 by which stage they could have removed all the level crossings.

I really don’t get your point about increasing frequencies influencing locals. The railway order will deal with the level crossing removal far in advance of any construction. If the scheme is granted planning then the residents don’t have anymore influence.

DoctorPan

Last Stop wrote: »

This would mean that either any EMUs you order would be sitting idle for a number of years until electrification

Hence why Peter Smyth has been been a bit cute and specified that the first order of EMUs be battery hybrids to prevent this exact scenario from occurring

GerardKeating

Last Stop wrote: »

Electrifying to Glasnevin junction first would have zero benefit.

It would if the Kildare route (and Pheonix Park tunnell) was done at the same time.

Last Stop

CatInABox wrote: »

Glasnevin Junction works include redoing the junction west of the station first, allowing trains from both lines to use the docklands line. The Drumcondra line is to be removed while station works are ongoing, with it to be regraded as construction is finished.

This means that the Docklands line can remain operational during Metrolink Construction. I wouldn't be surprised to see the line electrified during this time, what with it being worked on anyway.

There will obviously be some disruption during construction, ranging from minor to major. I'd imagine no weekend running for one.

Both lines will have to closed during Metrolink construction. Not concurrently though. The Metrolink box extends over both lines. You’re correct that they will transfer all trains onto the docklands line for a period of time but they will also have to transfer all trains onto the Drumcondra line for a similar period of time.
Yes you could put in the enabling works during this but full electrification will be delivered after all works at Glasnevin are complete

Last Stop

GerardKeating wrote: »

It would if the Kildare route (and Pheonix Park tunnell) was done at the same time.

But why would you do that?

Pete_Cavan

Last Stop wrote: »

What makes you think that the level crossings will have delays?

They have been trying to get rid of them for years but all attempts have been met up significant opposition from locals and Councillors. Nothing has changed and going again we require drawn out consultation and planning processes plus possible legal challenges. Getting planning approval for the level crossing removals will be longest process in this, having everything hinging on it will mean nothing happens for a long time. At least if the level crossings are closed for longer, the locals are incentivised to engage in finding a solution and alienate the noisy few who will shout down every solution offered.

GerardKeating

Last Stop wrote: »

But why would you do that?

Let the trains from Kildare into Connolly?

Last Stop

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

They have been trying to get rid of them for years but all attempts have been met up significant opposition from locals and Councillors. Nothing has changed and going again we require drawn out consultation and planning processes plus possible legal challenges. Getting planning approval for the level crossing removals will be longest process in this, having everything hinging on it will mean nothing happens for a long time. At least if the level crossings are closed for longer, the locals are incentivised to engage in finding a solution and alienate the noisy few who will shout down every solution offered.

The level crossing removal will form part of the DART Expansion railway order.

Last Stop

GerardKeating wrote: »

Let the trains from Kildare into Connolly?

I assume you mean Hazelhatch on the Kildare line? Again the issue is the lack of capacity at Connolly.
It would make far more sense to delay this part of the project until both Metrolink and Connolly resignalling have progressed further

Pete_Cavan

Last Stop wrote: »

The level crossing removal will form part of the DART Expansion railway order.

The Maynooth and Kildare lines electrifications will have separate consultant appointments and I'm pretty sure they entail separate Railway Order applications. Tying the whole lot together and have it all dependant on level crossing closures is a recipe for getting nothing done. DART Expansion is the overarching name for this be it will contain multiple separate elements, these need to be able to progress independently of each other to ensure as much as possible gets done in the shortest time possible.

Carawaystick

I thought the DASH resignalling was to have 20 tph over the LoopLine bridge each way?

Last Stop

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The Maynooth and Kildare lines electrifications will have separate consultant appointments and I'm pretty sure they entail separate Railway Order applications. Tying the whole lot together and have it all dependant on level crossing closures is a recipe for getting nothing done. DART Expansion is the overarching name for this be it will contain multiple separate elements, these need to be able to progress independently of each other to ensure as much as possible gets done in the shortest time possible.

The consultants are being appointed to design the whole line not just electrification. It would make sense if they followed this through to railway order as 2 separate jobs but that would include the level crossing removal. As I have said before, doing it after would be far more complicated.
Honestly I think you’re overestimating the complexity of the level crossing removal. Yes some residents have been vocal but that can be resolved through consultation and clever design. There’s only 1 or possibly 2 of the 6 that will cause any major problems anyway.

Zebra3

Can’t understand why the one between Leixlip and Maynooth wasn’t closed years ago.

Last Stop

Zebra3 wrote: »

Can’t understand why the one between Leixlip and Maynooth wasn’t closed years ago.

I see that intel are moving the road there. Wonder will this effect the crossing removal ?