DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

I thought the DASH resignalling was to have 20 tph over the LoopLine bridge each way?

That’s the maximum capacity - you aren’t going to run it at maximum from day 1.

Anyway the final phase of the city centre re-signalling project has yet to happen, which is Connolly itself. That’s on hold until the NTA decide how they want the DART expansion project to roll out - it may involve some remodelling of Connolly.

LXFlyer

Zebra3 wrote: »

Can’t understand why the one between Leixlip and Maynooth wasn’t closed years ago.

Hardly a game breaker - it’s already automated and not on the busiest part of the line from Clonsilla inwards.

CatInABox

Last Stop wrote: »

Both lines will have to closed during Metrolink construction. Not concurrently though. The Metrolink box extends over both lines. You’re correct that they will transfer all trains onto the docklands line for a period of time but they will also have to transfer all trains onto the Drumcondra line for a similar period of time.
Yes you could put in the enabling works during this but full electrification will be delivered after all works at Glasnevin are complete

The station box doesn't extend under the Docklands line.

Zebra3

LXFlyer wrote: »

Hardly a game breaker - it’s already automated and not on the busiest part of the line from Clonsilla inwards.

I know, but just nice to wrap things up bit by bit.

Carawaystick

Last Stop wrote: »

There’s only 1 or possibly 2 of the 6 that will cause any major problems anyway.

Ashtown, and Coolmine are major problems
Mainly due to bad planning decisions

MJohnston

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ashtown, and Coolmine are major problems
Mainly due to bad planning decisions

Ashtown has had a plan published in the past, with a few options in it.

spacetweek

MJohnston wrote: »

Ashtown has had a plan published in the past, with a few options in it.

Ashtown has a fair bit of space to work with. Clonsilla is tougher and may require house demolition.

DoctorPan

Last Stop wrote: »

I assume you mean Hazelhatch on the Kildare line? Again the issue is the lack of capacity at Connolly.

Which is why in Phase 1 (Maynooth) of the scheme includes redesign and capacity enhancements of Docklands and Connolly which will allow the full benefits of Phase 2 (Hazelhatch) and Phase 3 (Drogheda) to be realised.

Last Stop

CatInABox wrote: »

The station box doesn't extend under the Docklands line.

The docklands line is in a tunnel here. This tunnel will have to demolished as part of the station box construction. While this part may not be clear on the public consultation drawings, there will be a significant amount of work required to the docklands line. To create the station box wall will be very close to the docklands line although you are correct the station box does not extend over the line as I incorrectly stated.

Last Stop

DoctorPan wrote: »

Which is why in Phase 1 (Maynooth) of the scheme includes redesign and capacity enhancements of Docklands and Connolly which will allow the full benefits of Phase 2 (Hazelhatch) and Phase 3 (Drogheda) to be realised.

But the point being that until after Metrolink construction at Glasnevin, the Maynooth line will be operating at reduced capacity and it would be better to get elements such as the Kildare line between Hazelhatch and Heuston fully complete first instead.
The main service pattern will be Hazelhatch - Heuston with a few trains running from Hazelhatch (or Kildare/ Newbridge meaning they won’t need EMUs) to grand canal.

CatInABox

Last Stop wrote: »

The docklands line is in a tunnel here. This tunnel will have to demolished as part of the station box construction. While this part may not be clear on the public consultation drawings, there will be a significant amount of work required to the docklands line. To create the station box wall will be very close to the docklands line although you are correct the station box does not extend over the line as I incorrectly stated.

Yes, there's a significant amount of work to be done around the line, but it's almost all stuff that will be work done during weekend closures. Demolishing the tunnel would be done over the course of a few weekends. Building a retaining wall for the station box, yes it's close, but again, something that can be done over the course of several weekends. Creating the platforms on either side is, once again, something that could with weekend closures.

The only one that maybe require a lengthy closure is when they have to punch through the diaphragm wall and mine out the pedestrian tunnel under the line, but even there, they've shown that they can do so with tunnels under main line railways over a weekend.

The Maynooth line will be disrupted, and I'm not ruling out some lengthy closures on the line, but not on the scale of months.

Last Stop wrote: »

But the point being that until after Metrolink construction at Glasnevin, the Maynooth line will be operating at reduced capacity and it would be better to get elements such as the Kildare line between Hazelhatch and Heuston fully complete first instead.
The main service pattern will be Hazelhatch - Heuston with a few trains running from Hazelhatch (or Kildare/ Newbridge meaning they won’t need EMUs) to grand canal.

We've currently got nowhere to store any new carriages. The location for the new depot is out in Maynooth. No point electrifying the Kildare line if the trains can't get from Maynooth onto the Kildare line

DoctorPan

Last Stop wrote: »

But the point being that until after Metrolink construction at Glasnevin, the Maynooth line will be operating at reduced capacity and it would be better to get elements such as the Kildare line between Hazelhatch and Heuston fully complete first instead.
The main service pattern will be Hazelhatch - Heuston with a few trains running from Hazelhatch (or Kildare/ Newbridge meaning they won’t need EMUs) to grand canal.

Heuston isn't being put under the wires. It's wires via the PPT. Also as stated elsewhere, new depot to replace Fairview is going out by Fairview.

Last Stop

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, there's a significant amount of work to be done around the line, but it's almost all stuff that will be work done during weekend closures. Demolishing the tunnel would be done over the course of a few weekends. Building a retaining wall for the station box, yes it's close, but again, something that can be done over the course of several weekends. Creating the platforms on either side is, once again, something that could with weekend closures.

The only one that maybe require a lengthy closure is when they have to punch through the diaphragm wall and mine out the pedestrian tunnel under the line, but even there, they've shown that they can do so with tunnels under main line railways over a weekend.

The Maynooth line will be disrupted, and I'm not ruling out some lengthy closures on the line, but not on the scale of months.

The demolition of the tunnel cannot be done over course of a few weekends. The risk involved in a half demolished tunnel would be too great. Once you touch it, it all has to come down.
Driving the diaphragm wall will be tight to do in a weekend too.
I don’t know what you’re referring to with the pedestrian tunnel? I assume that the platform access will be from above, not below?

We've currently got nowhere to store any new carriages. The location for the new depot is out in Maynooth. No point electrifying the Kildare line if the trains can't get from Maynooth onto the Kildare line

Stabling is provided for as part of the Kildare line upgrade.

Last Stop

DoctorPan wrote: »

Heuston isn't being put under the wires. It's wires via the PPT. Also as stated elsewhere, new depot to replace Fairview is going out by Fairview.

http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/projects-investment/dart-expansion-programme

Heuston is being put under wires? It has to be because Connolly/loop line bridge doesn’t have the capacity. Currently the number of trains during morning peak is:
Connolly
Belfast 1
Drogheda 2
Malahide 3
Hazelhatch 1
Howth 3
Maynooth 1
Dundalk 1
Newry 1
Longford 1
Newbridge 1
Sligo 1
Total: 16
Tara (passing over loopline)
Malahide 3
Hazelhatch 1
Howth 3
Maynooth 1
Drogheda 2
Longford 1
Newbridge 1
Dundalk 1
Total: 13

The number of trains from Malahide and Maynooth will increase as part of DART expansion meaning that we will have more than 20 trains per hour at Connolly (granted some terminating services) and be close to capacity at the loop line without adding a single additional train from Hazelhatch.
There is currently only 2 direct trains from Hazelhatch during the morning peak (1 to GCD and 1 to Heuston). Assuming a 10 min frequency there would be 4 additional trains which simply cannot be accommodated at Connolly or on the loopline if you add any services to Malahide/Maynooth. Keep in mind also that there will be a reduction in capacity on the Maynooth line during Metrolink construction.

Fairview depot will remain but a new depot at Maynooth will also be built. Stabling is however provided for on the Kildare line.

Based on this, I stand by my suggestion that the Kildare line electrification between Hazelhatch and Heuston should progress as an single phase prior to the Maynooth line electrification.

CatInABox

Last Stop wrote: »

The demolition of the tunnel cannot be done over course of a few weekends. The risk involved in a half demolished tunnel would be too great. Once you touch it, it all has to come down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu4GjqfP5Rw

It took 24 hours to remove a bridge from the M7, and return the road to operation afterwards, I'm pretty sure that something similar could be done with Glasnevin Junction. Either way, the closures will be short in comparison to the Drumcondra line.

Last Stop wrote: »

Driving the diaphragm wall will be tight to do in a weekend too.
I don’t know what you’re referring to with the pedestrian tunnel? I assume that the platform access will be from above, not below?

Platform access will be both above and below. A pedestrian tunnel will be mined under the Maynooth line, allowing access to the southern platform from the underground station.

Last Stop wrote: »

Stabling is provided for as part of the Kildare line upgrade.

Stabling yes, but not a maintenance depot. Won't be able to commission new carriages outside of a maintenance depot.

CatInABox

Just noticed that TFI put out a new video on the Dart Expansion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgNE5UJB7FA

Snazzy.

L1011

Last Stop wrote: »

The demolition of the tunnel cannot be done over course of a few weekends. The risk involved in a half demolished tunnel would be too great. Once you touch it, it all has to come down.

That's really very dependent on the construction type of the tunnel. This is cut and cover, the capping may be sectional

CatInABox

Last Stop wrote: »

Heuston is being put under wires? It has to be because Connolly/loop line bridge doesn’t have the capacity.

On this, you are totally correct. It'd be a mad expansion that went close to one of the biggest stations in Ireland, but didn't actually go into it.

marno21

And an updated section on the IE website:

http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/projects-investment/dart-expansion-programme

bk

Interesting bit of info:

Our ambition is to increase train frequency from the current ten minute frequency to a five minute all day frequency and to lengthen all trains to eight carriages.

MrAbyss

CatInABox wrote: »

Just noticed that TFI put out a new video on the Dart Expansion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgNE5UJB7FA

Snazzy.

Another Greatest Video for Ireland

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

Interesting bit of info:

I assume that's 5 mins on the core network, they're hardly going to be running 12 8-car trains an hour to Drogheda.

Disappointing still nothing in the plan for south of Bray.

CatInABox

loyatemu wrote: »

I assume that's 5 mins on the core network, they're hardly going to be running 12 8-car trains an hour to Drogheda.

Disappointing still nothing in the plan for south of Bray.

Yes, I'd assume that Drogheda wouldn't be included in that.

South of Bray, the Bray Head Tunnel is the problem, and any solution there is going to be so expensive that it'll knock any cost benefit assessment severely.

marno21

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, I'd assume that Drogheda wouldn't be included in that.

South of Bray, the Bray Head Tunnel is the problem, and any solution there is going to be so expensive that it'll knock any cost benefit assessment severely.

A cost benefit analysis for a new inland tunnel through Bray Head, reflecting the realities of the erosion of the line, the continued feckless expansion of Greystones, local terrain and the state of the N11 would say to me that building such a tunnel would be a no brainer

The rest of the world seems to have no issue with spending the required money (this is hardly excessive) on solutions to meet tricky engineering requirements. Imagine if the Bay Area was in Ireland how limited transport options would be.

DoctorPan

Last Stop wrote: »

Assuming a 10 min frequency there would be 4 additional trains which simply cannot be accommodated at Connolly or on the loopline if you add any services to Malahide/Maynooth. Keep in mind also that there will be a reduction in capacity on the Maynooth line during Metrolink construction.

Fairview depot will remain but a new depot at Maynooth will also be built. Stabling is however provided for on the Kildare line.

Again you are forgetting that the first phase of the DART expansion is the redesign of Connolly station, thoat and Docklands to increase capacity. Docklands is planned to be used a lot more due to it's location

Fairview Depot is to be closed due to it's age, cramped site and differculty in bringing up to spec. Maynooth is to be the new main DART depot with Drogheda to act as a sub shed once Phase 3 kicks off.

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

A cost benefit analysis for a new inland tunnel through Bray Head, reflecting the realities of the erosion of the line, the continued feckless expansion of Greystones, local terrain and the state of the N11 would say to me that building such a tunnel would be a no brainer

The rest of the world seems to have no issue with spending the required money (this is hardly excessive) on solutions to meet tricky engineering requirements. Imagine if the Bay Area was in Ireland how limited transport options would be.

Totally agree, and it definitely needs to be done.

I guess I should have stated that the CBA for a Dart Expansion on the south east line would be trash compared with the CBA for a Dart expansion on any other line in the GDA. That's why it's not been included, in my opinion, it'd be too tough to justify spending that much more on one line.

I'd guess that we'll hear more about it near the end of the Dart Expansion project, and it'd be presented as a mere extension. I.e. look at the great work we've done on these lines, shouldn't we also fix the south east line and unlock the potential of the coast? etc.

marno21

CatInABox wrote: »

Totally agree, and it definitely needs to be done.

I guess I should have stated that the CBA for a Dart Expansion on the south east line would be trash compared with the CBA for a Dart expansion on any other line in the GDA. That's why it's not been included, in my opinion, it'd be too tough to justify spending that much more on one line.

I'd guess that we'll hear more about it near the end of the Dart Expansion project, and it'd be presented as a mere extension. I.e. look at the great work we've done on these lines, shouldn't we also fix the south east line and unlock the potential of the coast? etc.

Indeed, by the the erosion will be well on its way to closing the line and by then also the DART at Greystones will be akin to those memes you see about Indian trains given the rate of expansion in Greystones.

DART Expansion Phase 2 will surely include this, and the DART Interconnector tunnel with perhaps Northern Line triple tracking or similar expansion to the creaking system where possible.

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

Indeed, by the the erosion will be well on its way to closing the line and by then also the DART at Greystones will be akin to those memes you see about Indian trains given the rate of expansion in Greystones.

DART Expansion Phase 2 will surely include this, and the DART Interconnector tunnel with perhaps Northern Line triple tracking or similar expansion to the creaking system where possible.

Yes, it's an Irish solution to an Irish problem. Rather than waste their breath trying to convince Irish politicians that there's a problem coming down the line, the NTA and TII have learnt to wait until there's a problem reported on the nine o'clock news and primetime before presenting the solution.

Sucks for everyone, but it's the way things are done here.

Except for motorways. Irish politicians love motorways. Apart from the greens.

loyatemu

even without a 2nd tunnel, the NTA commissioned a report on increasing frequencies to Greystones last year, but unless that report is incorporated into the Dart Expansion program it'll just end up sitting on a shelf.

I drove into town from Greystones today (as I needed the car, a very rare occurrence) - left at 7.45, got to my office in the IFSC at 10.00. Insane, and I don't think today was a particularly bad day, just a typical wet morning. The govt has to get on with Dart Expansion, BusConnects and the Metro, but it also needs to develop massive P&R facilities on every main route into the city and then bring in congestion charging. If necessary make transport from the P&Rs free, anything to get people out of their cars. I heard on the radio this morning that the carbon tax is bringing in nearly half a billion euro a year, the money is there...

ncounties

When will we actually see contractors onsite on the Kildare and Maynooth lines? Apologies if its already been stated, just a lot of activity on here in recent weeks.