DART+ (DART Expansion)

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

This was on the cards (a few whispers) pre covid as a bit of a side-show to DART expansion, but I'd expect some design issue has pushed the costs too high for a short term win project.

Yeah, had heard that on here, too. Was thinking that now that the interconnector is specifically being mentioned, it might get put back on, with an element of future design/planning.

namloc1980

"prioritising plans for the delivery of...." sounds awfully wishy-washy and is very much non committal.

Sam Russell

CatInABox wrote: »

Looks like Dart Underground might be back on the menu. Wonder if they're going with "interconnector" to avoid any negative connotations that Dart Underground has.



It's the first official mention of it in ages, but I can't imagine that it'd be bumped up the schedule massively. Metrolink and the Dart Expansion are obviously far closer to a start point than any interconnector, but I think that we might see some changes to the Dart Expansion plan based upon the commitment to do the interconnector, such as moving the Docklands station down to the quays where the DU station was going to be.

Has Dart Underground still have planning?

marno21

namloc1980 wrote: »

"prioritising plans for the delivery of...." sounds awfully wishy-washy and is very much non committal.

Still an improvement on the “capital projects are you having a laugh?” attitude of the Kenny/Noonan days though.

namloc1980

marno21 wrote: »

Still an improvement on the “capital projects are you having a laugh?” attitude of the Kenny/Noonan days though.

We should be striving for more though. A couple of consultants reports over the life of this government will meet the threshold for "prioritising plans for the delivery of...".

liamog

I though DU was shovel ready at some point? I would of thought they could just dust off the old work, and give it a shiny new PowerPoint presentation.
At least with this coalition we won't have the whole redesign because it was originally developed by Fine/Fianna Other

roadmaster

IE just need to up date this video and send it to new government and way we go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KJyp7GPqJ8

Peregrine

liamog wrote: »

I though DU was shovel ready at some point? I would of thought they could just dust off the old work, and give it a shiny new PowerPoint presentation.
At least with this coalition we won't have the whole redesign because it was originally developed by Fine/Fianna Other

It was but the railway order was allowed to lapse in 2015 when a decision was made to redesign it.

Even if it wasn't, it would have lapsed by now.

The new version is supposed to be cheaper (fewer stations and/or less tunneling) and will have to interact with the new MetroLink differently too.

Anyway, this PfG mention is very vague and there's no commitment to do anything. As far as I'm concerned, we won't see any construction on DART Underground until 2030.

CatInABox

Yes, they've even stopped objecting to developments at sites that were to be a station access, like Sandwith St Upper.

SeanW

I think the Greens in gov't are going to be a disaster, but if Dart Underground is back on the agenda, it could be one bright spot in what will otherwise be a dumpster fire.

ncounties

With DART expansion, would it be feasible that a station could be introduced at Ballybough road? With the development potential of the area, and the fact that it would be located >1km than any other station, this would, to me at least, appear to make sense.

CatInABox

ncounties wrote: »

With DART expansion, would it be feasible that a station could be introduced at Ballybough road? With the development potential of the area, and the fact that it would be located >1km than any other station, this would, to me at least, appear to make sense.

Yes, if they ever get around to a consultation on this, I'll be pressing hard for this one, it makes sense for a multitude of reasons, not least because the line is going to be shut down during the construction of the Metrolink station at Crossguns.

gjim

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, if they ever get around to a consultation on this, I'll be pressing hard for this one, it makes sense for a multitude of reasons, not least because the line is going to be shut down during the construction of the Metrolink station at Crossguns.

I think a station on the North Strand Rd (which is only about 200m East) would be preferable because it intersects one the busiest arterial routes in the city. Particularly, there would be the potential to interchange with some of the heaviest bus routes on the north-side which pass under the bridge at North Strand/Nottingham St. You're still over 1km from Connolly here.

I would add extensive bus stopping facilities on both sides of the road and have the station platforms run over the road to allow entrances on both sides of the street. And I'd CPO the triangle of crappy little buildings with the PP bookies to provide extra space for bus interchange, bicycle parking and the station building.

Shedite27

gjim wrote: »

I think a station on the North Strand Rd (which is only about 200m East) would be preferable because it intersects one the busiest arterial routes in the city. Particularly, there would be the potential to interchange with some of the heaviest bus routes on the north-side which pass under the bridge at North Strand/Nottingham St. You're still over 1km from Connolly here.

I would add extensive bus stopping facilities on both sides of the road and have the station platforms run over the road to allow entrances on both sides of the street. And I'd CPO the triangle of crappy little buildings with the PP bookies to provide extra space for bus interchange, bicycle parking and the station building.

What journeys you thinking of? Is it for people to get on there and going outbound (where)? Or people disembarking there to go to work (no real offices/attractions there)?

L1011

ncounties wrote: »

With DART expansion, would it be feasible that a station could be introduced at Ballybough road? With the development potential of the area, and the fact that it would be located >1km than any other station, this would, to me at least, appear to make sense.

On which line?

The line to Connolly is a constant curve there, no new stations on curves in normal circumstances even though one had been planned there originally

It would be of minimal use on the Docklands/Newcomen line.

gjim wrote: »

I think a station on the North Strand Rd (which is only about 200m East) would be preferable because it intersects one the busiest arterial routes in the city. Particularly, there would be the potential to interchange with some of the heaviest bus routes on the north-side which pass under the bridge at North Strand/Nottingham St. You're still over 1km from Connolly here.

I would add extensive bus stopping facilities on both sides of the road and have the station platforms run over the road to allow entrances on both sides of the street. And I'd CPO the triangle of crappy little buildings with the PP bookies to provide extra space for bus interchange, bicycle parking and the station building.

Based on the length of modern stations, if building on a curve was allowed, you'd just have entrances at both ends from both roads.

loyatemu

Shedite27 wrote: »

What journeys you thinking of? Is it for people to get on there and going outbound (where)? Or people disembarking there to go to work (no real offices/attractions there)?

it would be a good bit closer to East Point than either Connolly or Docklands. Obviously Clontarf Rd. is closer again but for someone coming off the Maynooth line, disembarking at North Strand and walking up would be far quicker than going to Connolly and changing onto a northbound Dart.

CatInABox

L1011 wrote: »

On which line?

The line to Connolly is a constant curve there, no new stations on curves in normal circumstances even though one had been planned there originally

It would be of minimal use on the Docklands/Newcomen line.

The Docklands/Newcomen line is only 600 metres from Connolly, so it's need on that line is reduced. The other line though, is a kilometre away.

I know that it might not happen for various reasons, but the idea that, post Dart Expansion, we could have two mass transit lines running through a densely populated area and no way for residents there to avail of them is bananas.

It's also part of a possible urban regeneration. Right now, that area would be considered.... less than ideal. Having a Dart station there could make it more attractive to people.... maybe. Anyway, it's an area that's suffered from a lack of investment for a long time, and it'll suffer for longer if investment isn't started there.

LXFlyer

CatInABox wrote: »

The Docklands/Newcomen line is only 600 metres from Connolly, so it's need on that line is reduced. The other line though, is a kilometre away.

I know that it might not happen for various reasons, but the idea that, post Dart Expansion, we could have two mass transit lines running through a densely populated area and no way for residents there to avail of them is bananas.

It's also part of a possible urban regeneration. Right now, that area would be considered.... less than ideal. Having a Dart station there could make it more attractive to people.... maybe. Anyway, it's an area that's suffered from a lack of investment for a long time, and it'll suffer for longer if investment isn't started there.

As already posted though, the line from Ossory Road Junction through North Strand Junction until the overbridge at Clonliffe Avenue is on a constant and fairly major curve.

Building new stations on long curves (other than very mild ones) isn't something that the rail regulators are fond of anymore, due to the inevitable large gaps between the train and the platform that arise.

MJohnston

You could potentially get away with a station that spanned Clonliffe Avenue, as there's about 100m of relatively straight track, which could be used to provide safe access for less-able passengers. You'd have to have part of the platform on the curve though, for longer trains.

What are the minimum sizes for DART/Commuter platforms?

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

You could potentially get away with a station that spanned Clonliffe Avenue, as there's about 100m of relatively straight track, which could be used to provide safe access for less-able passengers. You'd have to have part of the platform on the curve though, for longer trains.

What are the minimum sizes for DART/Commuter platforms?

Looking at the 2020 Network Statement you're talking about 170-175m.

MJohnston

Then I suppose it could be partly feasible like this:



I've no idea of the practicality of a station here, however.

L1011

You can see the widening of the embankment for the original proposed station to the right of that image as it is.

ncounties

L1011 wrote: »

You can see the widening of the embankment for the original proposed station to the right of that image as it is.

When was the proposal? Relatively recently or going back a long time?

L1011

ncounties wrote: »

When was the proposal? Relatively recently or going back a long time?

When the line was built, 1906 I think

There were major works in the early 1900s to link together the various terminals

ncounties

I know it would be a lot of expense for just one station, but if new DARTs were spec'd like this we could potentially open up more opportunities for stations across the network.

L1011

ncounties wrote: »

I know it would be a lot of expense for just one station, but if new DARTs were spec'd like this we could potentially open up more opportunities for stations across the network.

Those are bodges for dealing with past issues and are not foolproof. They also don't come close to reducing the risks enough and they have an impact on dwell time as the steps must come out after stopping and before the doors open and vice versa going back in - abroad they are mostly used on rural routes with unmanned stations

They won't be causing a rollback of the rules

gjim

LXFlyer wrote: »

As already posted though, the line from Ossory Road Junction through North Strand Junction until the overbridge at Clonliffe Avenue is on a constant and fairly major curve.

Out of curiosity, what's considered a major curve in this context?

Eyeballing it on google maps, the curve flattens a bit around North Strand and Ballybough - maybe a 400m radius curve in that area?

Without digging out the trigonometry, I'd hazard a guess that the extra space created by a typical DART carriage would be less than 10cm at very front and back? Would that still be considered problematic?

thomasj

All reports suggesting Eamon Ryan is the next minister for Transport

prunudo

thomasj wrote: »

All reports suggesting Eamon Ryan is the next minister for Transport

Guess its time to disband the road forum

namloc1980

Who's the Junior Minister for Keeping an eye on the Greens Road policy?