DART+ (DART Expansion)

cgcsb

It would be ridiculous if there were no stops between Kylemore and Glasnevin interchange. That's a 7km distance through a relatively central area, what kind of urban transit system is that?

A stop at Heuston West and Cabra should be provided. There is plenty of space to provide a pedestrian causeway of travelators and they can take some space off the surface car park to extend the main station concourse. The walking distance to the existing main concourse would be about half a km which is nothing compared to what passengers do at airports and some of the mainline stations on mainland Europe.

donvito99

cgcsb wrote: »

It would be ridiculous if there were no stops between Kylemore and Glasnevin interchange. That's a 7km distance through a relatively central area, what kind of urban transit system is that?

Without Dart Underground the Kylemore, Ballyfermot area are better served to the City Centre (at least) by bus.

A stop at Heuston West and Cabra should be provided. There is plenty of space to provide a pedestrian causeway of travelators and they can take some space off the surface car park to extend the main station concourse. The walking distance to the existing main concourse would be about half a km which is nothing compared to what passengers do at airports and some of the mainline stations on mainland Europe.

It may be possible to have buses terminate at platform 10 allowing for an interchange to the City Centre. This isn't proposed in Bus Connects obviously but if you terminated the likes of the 145 and 46A and routed both down the quays it'd be a useful connection.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

It would be ridiculous if there were no stops between Kylemore and Glasnevin interchange. That's a 7km distance through a relatively central area, what kind of urban transit system is that?

A stop at Heuston West and Cabra should be provided. There is plenty of space to provide a pedestrian causeway of travelators and they can take some space off the surface car park to extend the main station concourse. The walking distance to the existing main concourse would be about half a km which is nothing compared to what passengers do at airports and some of the mainline stations on mainland Europe.

To be honest I would be very surprised if those two stops (Heuston West & Cabra) did not happen. They are entirely logical.

Again no detailed plans have been published - just a high level overview.

In planning Heuston West, do remember that there will still be commuter services to/from Heuston - I’m not sure that a network of travelators is entirely necessary.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

To be honest I would be very surprised if those two stops (Heuston West & Cabra) did not happen. They are entirely logical.

Again no detailed plans have been published - just a high level overview.

In planning Heuston West, do remember that there will still be commuter services to/from Heuston - I’m not sure that a network of travelators is entirely necessary.

A decent covered walking route should be the minimum.

cgcsb

donvito99 wrote: »

Without Dart Underground the Kylemore, Ballyfermot area are better served to the City Centre (at least) by bus.



It may be possible to have buses terminate at platform 10 allowing for an interchange to the City Centre. This isn't proposed in Bus Connects obviously but if you terminated the likes of the 145 and 46A and routed both down the quays it'd be a useful connection.

It's not just about An Lar it's about creating good connections. Without a stop in Cabra then you've no interchange potential with the green line luas, ignoring Heuston and passing within half a km of it is madness, it's the country's biggest station. Good connections make the network, If you can image when this is done a journey from Hazelhatch to Finglas for example will be much paster by PT than by road. At present there are hardly any suburb-suburb journeys that can claim that.

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

A decent covered walking route should be the minimum.

agreed, for a country with notoriously variable weather (albeit Dublin is the driest bit) we're terrible at building our infrastructure to provide decent shelter for people. The cliché is "it'd be a great country if you put a roof on it" yet we keep building stations with no roof and shelters that fit 2 people and don't effectively keep out the rain </rant>

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

agreed, for a country with notoriously variable weather (albeit Dublin is the driest bit) we're terrible at building our infrastructure to provide decent shelter for people. The cliché is "it'd be a great country if you put a roof on it" yet we keep building stations with no roof and shelters that fit 2 people and don't effectively keep out the rain </rant>

I find this strangely common in North European (rainy) countries. The Netherlands / Germany / Belgium have most stations open air. Sweden has everything covered generally but I think that's more to avoid hypothermia than rain. But then in Spain, most stations are covered. It's a weird one but I think it's more got to do with natural light than rain. If you go into traditional Spanish houses you would need night vision goggles, only tiny windows facing the wrong way, I guess they needed a break from the sun where as at this latitude we love a bit of south facing glass.

Peregrine

LXFlyer wrote: »

Heuston West is not Kylemore. It is an additional station planned to be built just before the Phoenix Park Tunnel (provide a platform 11 opposite platform 10).

Unless something has changed recently, Heuston West was going to be a station on the mainline and not the PPT line. There were no plans to develop Platform 10.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

It's not just about An Lar it's about creating good connections. Without a stop in Cabra then you've no interchange potential with the green line luas, ignoring Heuston and passing within half a km of it is madness, it's the country's biggest station. Good connections make the network, If you can image when this is done a journey from Hazelhatch to Finglas for example will be much paster by PT than by road. At present there are hardly any suburb-suburb journeys that can claim that.

I would suspect that the station in Cabra won’t be beside the Green Line - The most suitable location would be between Cabra Road and Faussagh Avenue where there is development planned as well.

The tunnels over and the tight curvature of the railway line closer to the Green Line mean that area is unlikely to be suitable for a station.

LXFlyer

Peregrine wrote: »

Unless something has changed recently, Heuston West was going to be a station on the mainline and not the PPT line. There were no plans to develop Platform 10.

Perhaps thinking has changed - the last concepts I heard were the latter.

But we have no detailed plans either way - that’s really my point.

None of us can say with any certainty what’s planned.

It makes this discussion pointless until detailed plans are presented.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

I would suspect that the station in Cabra won’t be beside the Green Line - The most suitable location would be between Cabra Road and Faussagh Avenue where there is development planned as well.

The tunnels over and the tight curvature of the railway line closer to the Green Line mean that area is unlikely to be suitable for a station.

The cabra station was proposed for the space between Fassaugh rd and Cabra rd, which would mena a 600m walk to Cabra luas, not ideal but hey.

A new interchange station at the back of the beans factory could also be possible with some CPO

MJohnston

I'd also like to pipe up for my previous idea of a Dublin Zoo station just after the tunnel ends.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd also like to pipe up for my previous idea of a Dublin Zoo station just after the tunnel ends.

A station somewhere between the tunnel portal and Blackhorse Ave. would be a great asset, there's even an existing bridge connecting the army barracks to Marlborough mews and plans to demolish the blackhorse industrial estate and build multi storey apartment blocks. For this to work well we'd have to get cleaver with pedestrian links. Gardaí HQ might have to loose some parking for park access.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

The cabra station was proposed for the space between Fassaugh rd and Cabra rd, which would mena a 600m walk to Cabra luas, not ideal but hey.

A new interchange station at the back of the beans factory could also be possible with some CPO

The proposed Cabra location is exactly where I mentioned above. I can’t see huge numbers using that as an interchange if I’m honest. It would be far easier to switch to a bus at Glasnevin.

The latter location that you mention at the rear of Batchelor’s plant is highly unlikely due to the tight curvature and the tunnels as I mentioned above. The Commission for Railway Regulation isn’t fond of new stations on curves like that one.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd also like to pipe up for my previous idea of a Dublin Zoo station just after the tunnel ends.

cgcsb wrote: »

A station somewhere between the tunnel portal and Blackhorse Ave. would be a great asset, there's even an existing bridge connecting the army barracks to Marlborough mews and plans to demolish the blackhorse industrial estate and build multi storey apartment blocks. For this to work well we'd have to get cleaver with pedestrian links.

You face the same issues as the Batchelors location - it would be on a tight curve.

Even if you could fit a station there, it would be very close to Cabra and Heuston West, if not too close. It’s a railway not a tram line.

donvito99

A balance needs to be struck between more stations serving more journeys and more stations slowing down more journeys.

In my view, longer journeys ought to be prioritised over local journeys/connections in areas well served by either Luas or Dublin Bus.

loyatemu

Pedestrian access from Heuston West would provide access to the Zoo, I don't think it warrant's it's own station (I've now got U2's "Zoo Station" stuck in my head)

p_haugh

On the topic of curves, platform 10 at heuston is already on a curve so I'd say they wouldn't be that keen to add in a platform 11 too.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

You face the same issues as the Batchelors location - it would be on a tight curve.

Even if you could fit a station there, it would be very close to Cabra and Heuston West, if not too close. It’s a railway not a tram line.

I'd be happy with just a Heuston West station on platform 10 and 11, this can be connected to the park by new ped bridge even. Plus a station at Cabra and that's grand. The track at Blackhorse ave is perfectly straight.

loyatemu

donvito99 wrote: »

A balance needs to be struck between more stations serving more journeys and more stations slowing down more journeys.

In my view, longer journeys ought to be prioritised over local journeys/connections in areas well served by either Luas or Dublin Bus.

it's an urban/suburban line, there are stations on the existing Dart that are only 1km apart where it goes through the city and inner suburbs.

LXFlyer

p_haugh wrote: »

On the topic of curves, platform 10 at heuston is already on a curve so I'd say they wouldn't be that keen to add in a platform 11 too.

It’s a much gentler curve than would be at either of the other locations that I excluded above.

Line of sight for drivers would still be possible and gaps minimised.

MJohnston

loyatemu wrote: »

Pedestrian access from Heuston West would provide access to the Zoo, I don't think it warrant's it's own station (I've now got U2's "Zoo Station" stuck in my head)

Conversely pedestrian access from a zoo station would provide access to Heuston. In fact, it'd only be about 150m more of a walk to the Red Line stop!

If Heuston West is intended to be mainline rather that on the PPT line, then that's a moot point anyway, as they'd be serving different lines.

As to the proximity to the hypothetical Cabra Quarry Road station, it's about 1.2km between the two which is totally in line with existing DART station placements.

donvito99

loyatemu wrote: »

it's an urban/suburban line, there are stations on the existing Dart that are only 1km apart where it goes through the city and inner suburbs.

The DART doesn't deviate though. If you were going from Cabra to O'Connell St, you'd be better off getting the Luas or a bus rather than hopping on a train which goes North, before heading East and stopping twice more before it finally turns South to the area you want to go. Encouraging this kind of use detracts from the service vital to getting lots of people from the West into the City quickly.

loyatemu

donvito99 wrote: »

The DART doesn't deviate though. If you were going from Cabra to O'Connell St, you'd be better off getting the Luas or a bus rather than hopping on a train which goes North, before heading East and stopping twice more before it finally turns South to the area you want to go. Encouraging this kind of use detracts from the service vital to getting lots of people from the West into the City quickly.

what if you want to go to GCD, or Ballsbridge or Dun Laoghaire. I don't think a suburban rail service should run through a built up area like Cabra or Inchicore without providing a stop.

MJohnston

donvito99 wrote: »

The DART doesn't deviate though. If you were going from Cabra to O'Connell St, you'd be better off getting the Luas or a bus rather than hopping on a train which goes North, before heading East and stopping twice more before it finally turns South to the area you want to go. Encouraging this kind of use detracts from the service vital to getting lots of people from the West into the City quickly.

You're forgetting that not everybody is heading to the city centre. A station at Cabra would eventually provide a 1km walking connection with the extended Luas Finglas.

The reverse is also true—someone living in Cabra could use the PPT line to get to the Red Line for much quicker access to Citywest.

There's so much social and economic value in providing working class areas like Cabra with greater connections to the rapid transport network of the city.

It doesn't make any sense to me to say that the low-density suburbs of Sandymount and Merrion are fine to have 5 DART stations within a 3.5km stretch of track, but the higher density area (which is heavily densifying at the minute) around the PPT can only support 2 DART stations in the same distance.

LXFlyer

I don’t think anyone is saying no station in Cabra.

But I would think that two stations between Heuston West and Glasnevin would be overkill.

One really is sufficient, as originally planned, located between Cabra Road and Faussagh Avenue.

Every station adds two minutes to journey times and I don’t see anymore than those three actually happening, not least due to the location issues.

loyatemu

LXFlyer wrote: »

I don’t think anyone is saying no station in Cabra.

But I would think that two stations between Heuston West and Glasnevin would be overkill.

One really is sufficient, as originally planned, located between Cabra Road and Faussagh Avenue.

Every station adds two minutes to journey times and I don’t see anymore than those three actually happening, not least due to the location issues.

Inchicore?

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

I don’t think anyone is saying no station in Cabra.

But I would think that two stations between Heuston West and Glasnevin would be overkill.

One really is sufficient, as originally planned, located between Cabra Road and Faussagh Avenue.

Every station adds two minutes to journey times and I don’t see anymore than those three actually happening, not least due to the location issues.

I appreciate your opinion, and yes, there will be an effect on journey times, however I'm only suggesting that additional station options be considered. I'd like to see a proper technical report and analysis from the relevant authorities.

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

Inchicore?

That’s going the other way from Heuston.

Kylemore Road I would see as a certainty.

But along the “Gullet” would be next to impossible given it is to be expanded to four tracks. There really isn’t the space.

Possibly just west of Sarsfield Road on Inchicore Works land?

loyatemu

LXFlyer wrote: »

That’s going the other way from Heuston.

Kylemore Road I would see as a certainty.

But along the “Gullet” would be next to impossible given it is to be expanded to four tracks. There really isn’t the space.

Possibly just west of Sarsfield Road on Inchicore Works land?

yeah at the works is where I was thinking, I don't know how accessible that is from Inchicore village but it's about equidistant between Kylemore and Heuston.