DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

The NTA decided some time ago that all DARTS stop at all stations.

Now it would make sense for, say, Greystones trains to stop at Bray, DL, Blackrock, Sydney Parade, Lansdowne, GCD, Pearse, etc. The problem would come from the stopping train in front. Such patterns would only be possible if there were passing loops or third rails at various points on the line.

What is needed is faster transit - your know, the RAPID bit in the name. We have the same with LUAS crawling through town at walking pace which is ironic given the name. The rail based transit should be based on networks of routes that provide fast transit with flexible routes rather than fixed single lines. It should be possible to plan a minimum change or change free route for many of the common start and end points. Metrolink will of course help with this

The current proposals are all centred on An Lar type thinking. Not everyone is going to An Lar. In fact where is An Lar anymore?

Other than at Dún Laoghaire, where there is room for remodelling to the north of the existing station, there is no scope for extra tracks, so limited stop DART services are very limited in scope.

loyatemu

LXFlyer wrote: »

Other than at Dún Laoghaire, where there is room for remodelling to the north of the existing station, there is no scope for extra tracks, so limited stop DART services are very limited in scope.

could be done at locations between Bray and Killiney too, but the benefits would be marginal.

Sam Russell

LXFlyer wrote: »

Other than at Dún Laoghaire, where there is room for remodelling to the north of the existing station, there is no scope for extra tracks, so limited stop DART services are very limited in scope.

Well, there is room at Sydney Parade for a third rail and third platform*, and there is room between Sydney Parade and Booterstown. There is plenty of room along the line in various places, but a passing arrangement at DL would certainly help and if Sydney Parade had a passing arrangement that might be enough.

*IR actually own a strip of land on the east side of the station.

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

could be done at locations between Bray and Killiney too, but the benefits would be marginal.

They would be non-existent benefits operationally, let's be honest, that's why I didn't even raise it as a suggestion.

Zebra3

MJohnston wrote: »

On this DART naming thing, the weirdest thing for me about having a DART to Drogheda is in the name. Drogheda isn't even in the Greater Dublin Area!

Is there an official designation for the GDA?

donvito99

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is there an official designation for the GDA?

I think the fact that it's a commuter service going to Dublin permits use of GDA in this context.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, there is room at Sydney Parade for a third rail and third platform*, and there is room between Sydney Parade and Booterstown. There is plenty of room along the line in various places, but a passing arrangement at DL would certainly help and if Sydney Parade had a passing arrangement that might be enough.

*IR actually own a strip of land on the east side of the station.

Really there isn't "plenty of room" along the line southeast of Pearse.

The land between south of Merrion Gates and Booterstown either side of the railway is protected, so additional tracks there are not an option.

Holding a train at Sydney Parade for overtaking would then lead to uneven headways at stations south of there, as the next train wouldn't necessarily be overtaken which isn't really optimal operating practice.

An overtaking/turnback facility at Dún Laoghaire really is the only option.

Sam Russell

MJohnston wrote: »

On this DART naming thing, the weirdest thing for me about having a DART to Drogheda is in the name. Drogheda isn't even in the Greater Dublin Area!

Dublin Bus are not restricted to Dublin.

BonnieSituation

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is there an official designation for the GDA?

MJohnston wrote: »

On this DART naming thing, the weirdest thing for me about having a DART to Drogheda is in the name. Drogheda isn't even in the Greater Dublin Area!

It is. Partly.

The GDA is Dublin, Wicklow, Kildare, Meath. To not include Drogheda in that definition ignores the fact that the southern portion of the Drogheda urban area through Stameen is in Meath. It would actually be such a weird thing to not include it within a definition of the GDA given its own suburbs such as Laytown, Bettystown and Mornington are within the GDA.

Anyway, it makes perfect sense to include Drogheda within the DART expansion.

Pete_Cavan

AngryLips wrote: »

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes, DART is the brand for regular stop services in the Dublin area.

Says who?

Everyone! DART at present is a high frequency service with trains stopping at all stations on the core route mostlyinsidethe continuous builtup urban area. Should it also be the brand for lower frequency, limited stop services going much further out? I don't think it should, that is a different type of service so should have a different name along with other similar services.

MJohnston

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It is. Partly.

The GDA is Dublin, Wicklow, Kildare, Meath. To not include Drogheda in that definition ignores the fact that the southern portion of the Drogheda urban area through Stameen is in Meath. It would actually be such a weird thing to not include it within a definition of the GDA given its own suburbs such as Laytown, Bettystown and Mornington are within the GDA.

Anyway, it makes perfect sense to include Drogheda within the DART expansion.

Nah, the vast majority of Drogheda is in Louth, so I think it's fair to say it's outside the GDA. I suspect even the NTA only defined the GDA to include Meath because of Ashbourne, Dunboyne, etc. rather than the north-eastern sections of that county.

That aside though, my opinion is that applying the DART label to distant towns in the Greater Dublin Area is a massive stretch, and they should just use a different brand for those services.

In fact, I believe that post DART+ three out of four of the Commuter branded lines will be electrified, and I reckon that's a better brand for these "semi-fast outer" services.

LXFlyer

The branding, let's be honest, is an issue for further along the process when the new rolling stock is being ordered and delivered.

If there are separate fleets (one with a toilet, one without), then separate branding is easy, but if it is a common fleet then it will be more difficult.

Right now I think it's probably better to focus on the tons of infrastructure documentation on DART+ West that there is to assimilate.

IE 222

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yes, DART is the brand for regular stop services in the Dublin area. It already covers multiple routes, as with Howth and Malahide. Two more regular stop services in the Dublin area are to be added to west Dublin, putting those routes under the DART brand is consistent and makes sense. Adding an intermittent stopping service travelling 50km out from Dublin city centre doesn't make sense. Imagine explaining to someone to take the DART but make sure to get the inner stopping DART not the outer semi-fast DART. Is DART just the brand name for electrified lines now? Or can we put all commuter services into Dublin under DART as well, regardless of the service pattern they operate? Keeping DART in the Dublin area (as per the name) with regular stops and having another name for intermittent stop services from further out would make more sense.

Numbering works fine for buses and other rail networks across the world without such confusion. I really don't see your point here.

Stupid people tend to learn quicker when their inconvenienced so maybe this "confusing" situation will have some positives outcomes. There is also large info boards at each station not only to tell people where the train is going but all the intermittent stops as well. Then there is other massive technology breakthroughs such as mobile phone apps and Google which will tell them instantly what train to get if all the above is too much to work out.

Sam Russell

IE 222 wrote: »

Numbering works fine for buses and other rail networks across the world without such confusion. I really don't see your point here.

Stupid people tend to learn quicker when their inconvenienced so maybe this "confusing" situation will have some positives outcomes. There is also large info boards at each station not only to tell people where the train is going but all the intermittent stops as well. Then there is other massive technology breakthroughs such as mobile phone apps and Google which will tell them instantly what train to get if all the above is too much to work out.

The only confusion that will arise is if they split trains in service. Announcements such as: 'The first four coaches are for Howth, the last four are for Malahide' will panic some passengers.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

The only confusion that will arise is if they split trains in service. Announcements such as: 'The first four coaches are for Howth, the last four are for Malahide' will panic some passengers.

With high frequency suburban operations, I doubt that splitting will be an option.

riddlinrussell

LXFlyer wrote: »

With high frequency suburban operations, I doubt that splitting will be an option.

Unless they do it all dramatic and hollywood style without stopping :eek:

LXFlyer

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Unless they do it all dramatic and hollywood style without stopping :eek:

Slip carriages?

Eh no...don't think that the rule book would be too happy with that!!! :-)

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

The branding, let's be honest, is an issue for further along the process when the new rolling stock is being ordered and delivered.

I actually kind of disagree on this point—I think branding is very important for selling the service to the public, which is necessary even as early as the public consultation.

And I think that's why they've named it DART+ right now, rather than something else, because it is a brand that connotes speed of service.

IE 222

MaccaTacca wrote: »

How long will it take a DART to go from Connolly to Drogheda? It takes the Greystones DART 50 minutes to go 27km, according to Google Maps Drogheda is 47kms from Connolly.

I know this is opening up a different can of worms entirely, but the current DART service as it is, is painfully slow.

Take Bray to Pearse for example, thats a distance of 19km but takes almost 40 minutes to complete. A similar service in Europe or the UK would take 20 minutes max.

Will these new expansions mean that services are even slower for the existing lines?

Quad tracking or over taking loops are you only option here.

Take Heuston - Hazelhatch for example. It takes a stopper 20 mins to complete the journey while a non stopping service can cover it in 11 mins. It's a similar distance to Connolly and Malahide and also has less stops. Something similar to Malahide would knock about 15mins off Northern bound trains.

Same situation for the Wexford line and Sligo is likely going to suffer the same issues. Terminating some Darts at DL could be done tomorrow and would add massive improvements to Wexford services ect. There is very little else you can do with the wexford line due to its nature. The new Pelletstown station should be built for quad tracking. There is enough space to quad the line between Glasnevin and M50 granted Ashtown and Navan road would need to be rebuilt.

IE 222

Sam Russell wrote: »

The only confusion that will arise is if they split trains in service. Announcements such as: 'The first four coaches are for Howth, the last four are for Malahide' will panic some passengers.

Well that won't be happening

Brian CivilEng

I remember at peak times there used be one DART that went from Connolly non-stop to Howth junction. An acquaintance of mine once got on it by accident when coming to visit me in Raheny, and despite only requiring a train change and another 2min journey it was enough for them to swear off using the DART in the future. (Granted they have gotten lost multiple times when driving but nothing said about that).

Simplicity matters.

IE 222

MJohnston wrote: »

I actually kind of disagree on this point—I think branding is very important for selling the service to the public, which is necessary even as early as the public consultation.

And I think that's why they've named it DART+ right now, rather than something else, because it is a brand that connotes speed of service.

Anything is possible with the NTA, I wouldn't be surprised to see them mess around deliveries act but Dart is a very successful brand and was an instant hit when launched and very easy to associate its purpose it would be madness to change it. Its brand or livery haven't changed much since its launch. DART will be kept for other suburban services as people see DART as a positive.

MJohnston

IE 222 wrote: »

Anything is possible with the NTA, I wouldn't be surprised to see them mess around deliveries act but Dart is a very successful brand and was an instant hit when launched and very easy to associate its purpose it would be madness to change it. Its brand or livery haven't changed much since its launch. DART will be kept for other suburban services as people see DART as a positive.

Well, while I think it makes sense to call these Maynooth/Kildare/Drogheda extensions "DART+" during the planning phase, I'd like to see them explore a new brand for those services in the long run, as it would help with the simplicity that Brian mentions above.

DART = rapid + all-stopping + local service
? = rapid + limited stop + outer service
Commuter = regular speed + limited stop + outer service
Intercity = regular speed + express + intercity service

Lord Glentoran

Brian CivilEng wrote: »

I remember at peak times there used be one DART that went from Connolly non-stop to Howth junction. An acquaintance of mine once got on it by accident when coming to visit me in Raheny, and despite only requiring a train change and another 2min journey it was enough for them to swear off using the DART in the future. (Granted they have gotten lost multiple times when driving but nothing said about that).

Simplicity matters.

Reminds me of the time when someone got on a Maynooth train, despite announcements and the big blue lower panel with “commuter” on it, and then berated the staff on the platform at Connolly after getting off in a panic, claiming the train looked too much like a DART. Horse to water, etc...

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Well, while I think it makes sense to call these Maynooth/Kildare/Drogheda extensions "DART+" during the planning phase, I'd like to see them explore a new brand for those services in the long run, as it would help with the simplicity that Brian mentions above.

DART = rapid + all-stopping + local service
? = rapid + limited stop + outer service
Commuter = regular speed + limited stop + outer service
Intercity = regular speed + express + intercity service

I would agree - I think that the DART+ is fine for now during the planning.

Sam Russell

LXFlyer wrote: »

I would agree - I think that the DART+ is fine for now during the planning.

They could return to the old CIE logo - the flying snail.

Pete_Cavan

MJohnston wrote: »

Well, while I think it makes sense to call these Maynooth/Kildare/Drogheda extensions "DART+" during the planning phase, I'd like to see them explore a new brand for those services in the long run, as it would help with the simplicity that Brian mentions above.

DART = rapid + all-stopping + local service
? = rapid + limited stop + outer service
Commuter = regular speed + limited stop + outer service
Intercity = regular speed + express + intercity service

I agree with this. Was Arrow used previously for some services, perhaps it could be used. Not sure Arrow (or another suitable name) and Commuter are both needed, they are probably really the same thing. They could originate from places like Drogheda, Mullingar, Newbridge, etc. as suitable.

I also think it is relevant at this stage as it feeds into service patterns.

highdef

Brian CivilEng wrote: »

I remember at peak times there used be one DART that went from Connolly non-stop to Howth junction. An acquaintance of mine once got on it by accident when coming to visit me in Raheny, and despite only requiring a train change and another 2min journey it was enough for them to swear off using the DART in the future. (Granted they have gotten lost multiple times when driving but nothing said about that).

Simplicity matters.

I remember that train well, before the days of Clontarf Road especially. I used to get it whenever I could as the train would travel sedately from Connolly to the bridge at North Strand. Then, assuming that driver had a clear run all the way, full throttle was applied and it was full speed all the way to Kilbarrack, 100 km/h all the way with horn blaring on the approach to each intermediate station. I timed it a few times and around 5 minutes from North Strand bridge to stopping at Howth Junction was not uncommon.

Apologies for digressing!

BonnieSituation

highdef wrote: »

I remember that train well, before the days of Clontarf Road especially. I used to get it whenever I could as the train would travel sedately from Connolly to the bridge at North Strand. Then, assuming that driver had a clear run all the way, full throttle was applied and it was full speed all the way to Kilbarrack, 100 km/h all the way with horn blaring on the approach to each intermediate station. I timed it a few times and around 5 minutes from North Strand bridge to stopping at Howth Junction was not uncommon.

Apologies for digressing!

It's up there with the old 16.20 from DL that was non-stop to Pearse. good times.

Anyway...

Geuze

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Everyone! DART at present is a high frequency service with trains stopping at all stations on the core route mostlyinsidethe continuous builtup urban area. Should it also be the brand for lower frequency, limited stop services going much further out? I don't think it should, that is a different type of service so should have a different name along with other similar services.

In my opinion, regional trains starting in Longford / Navan / Dundalk / Drogheda / Kildare, etc. should be different from IC and DART.


DART = stop at all stations, within, say, 20km of Dublin.