DART+ (DART Expansion)

prinzeugen

There was a test in the UK with "out and back" batteries that didn't end well I believe.
Class 397 in Essex.

From what I read perhaps a year ago, current battery technology is only good for a return journey of 10 miles max. (5 miles each way)

There is other issues like fire risks.

IE 222

My understanding is that it would be a lot more than 10 miles. Charging points would be included in terminal stations which will increase its distance. 10 mins seems to be the norm elsewhere for a full recharge.

It would be interesting to know if they can operate solely on battery with just quick charges between turn arounds, if so they could easily replace 2600s/2800s in Cork and Limerick with only charging points been needed in terminal stations.

20-30 miles would be the max IE would need to run them on battery power. Lower running speeds on battery power would be the main concern.

L1011

We of course have experience of charge-at-station battery trains here... from 1931 until 1949! But the required turnaround time would be unacceptably long these days.

DART+ plans mention using top and tail driver swapping (they use another term for this that is probably the official term, but I can't remember it now) to accelerate turnaround on what will be relatively long (10-car) trains.

IE 222

L1011 wrote: »

We of course have experience of charge-at-station battery trains here... from 1931 until 1949! But the required turnaround time would be unacceptably long these days.

DART+ plans mention using top and tail driver swapping (they use another term for this that is probably the official term, but I can't remember it now) to accelerate turnaround on what will be relatively long (10-car) trains.

Stepping up of drivers. This just increases the number of turn backs on each platform from 6 to 8 per hour.

There is no platform extension planned for, so 10 car trains wont be happening for the foreseeable future. Given the amount of platforms that would require lengthening it would more likely be wiser to invest in increasing the number of trains per hour.

DoctorPan

IE 222 wrote: »

Would the battery units not be kept for running services beyond the electrification sections to the likes Kildare, Portlaoise, Dundalk ect. Otherwise they will still require a number of ICRs operating "commuter" services for the sake of a few miles.

The new DARTs are being speced for suburban commuter routes as per Smythe. The DART expansion is not intended to replace ICR workings bar PPT services. It's mainly about freeing up the 29000s to be cascaded down to Cork and Limerick for use on their commuter services.

They see the batteries as stop gap solution to bridge the gap between stock arriving and the wires going up. They have concerns that in true Irish fashion that a stop gap solution will become a permanent solution and so don't want to leave leeway for project cancellation.

IE 222

DoctorPan wrote: »

The new DARTs are being speced for suburban commuter routes as per Smythe. The DART expansion is not intended to replace ICR workings bar PPT services. It's mainly about freeing up the 29000s to be cascaded down to Cork and Limerick for use on their commuter services.

They see the batteries as stop gap solution to bridge the gap between stock arriving and the wires going up. They have concerns that in true Irish fashion that a stop gap solution will become a permanent solution and so don't want to leave leeway for project cancellation.

Yeah I since seen Dundalk will run as a diesel shuttle from Drogheda. They'd be taken off any commuter rotations as well so really it's only Portlaoise and Longford requiring ICRs which would just utilize Sligo and Heuston stock.

I see their point and makes perfect sense although if the battery performance proves to be excellent and efficient keeping some for shuttles such as the Dundalk one would make sense and remove the need of needing a ramdom diesel set north of Connolly.

Will Drogheda Train Care still be able to cater for DMUs once they switch to EMUs.

dublinman1990

Re: Dart+ Coastal South & new rolling stock and depot for Dart+ West in Kilcock

I would assume that the new additional turnback facility at Dún Laoghaire will need to have some new realignment work done on it's existing trackbed once it get's built after the RO is submitted in Q4 2023. I would be thinking that the new extra track & platform for the new turnback facility being mentioned from the Dart+ brochure may need to start outside the Irish Lights building to make it finish it's track alignment once it enters the station. Also would adding extra signalling facilities become necessary to allow for more services to be depart/arrive at the station?

It would also make a lot of sense for IÉ to have advance plans in place in the short term to propose a build of the new Dart depot at Kilcock within a year or less from launching the recent Dart+ West consultation to members of the public last week. It would be good for IÉ to do this now while alleviating possible congestion concerns of new battery rolling stock fleet being delivered & lying around in spare sidings all over the GDA's rail network before the new stock get's shipped over here to be tested & run for service on our rail system.

With trains proposed to run every 4 minutes between Maynooth to stations around Dublin CC & then onto Bray/Greystones; I would imagine the 1st tranche of new trains will be coming in quite a large amount to for it to absorbed onto the system in Dublin. You would not want these trains to be standing around North Wall as a possible storage facility while the commuter stock is still running an active commuter rail service on the network to Maynooth/M3 Parkway. The new stations being built for Connolly North & Spencer Dock on that section of the line will by a lot of builders along with lots of their construction equipment on site at Mayor Street Luas Stop.

They have to do that job whilst building the new stations on an active rail network in Dublin while it is our own capital city. That is not an easy job to do for any company as it can run into problems from time to time especially if you have to encounter signal/points failures on the line.

To take the amount of new rolling stock needed for this project into account; if 600 carriages came onto the system as an overall figure & were split up into 2 "5 carriage" units to make run on 10 carriage trains; that will add up to 60 "10 carriage" units for Dart+. That is not enough trains to be running Dart+ properly because IÉ would have to maximize the use of these new carriages on other parts of the new Dart+ network along with Dart+ West.

It would mean IÉ would have to use them on the existing Dart line that we have now & for the other new expanded services on the network in future like to Drogheda and Hazelhatch with it possibly going to Kildare in the medium-long term for DU while it lessens & availability of the number of carriages in use for the new service.

That would not be acceptable for rail commuters as they want to see more Darts being used to get them to their destination in Dublin by using rail much quicker.

It's also one big reason why the 8 carriage requirement is there as a crucial benchmark by IÉ as it can be used to maximize the use of the trains while Dart+ complies with it's new T/T & frequency. With 8 carriage Dart trains being more realistic capacity to carry rail passengers than 10 carriage trains; it will allow for 75 "8 carriage units" to be used on Dart+. Think about it; it's an extra 15 full length trains that you didn't have dreamed of while before we could use them as 10 carriage Darts. That is an absolutely massive figure. Just think of the potential of which you can use the new Dart fleet with those figures as you get more value out of them while the trains carry more passengers than expected on any day of the week. If not all of them are out at the same time; some of them can be used as replacement units or for maintenance if one full 8 carriage Dart breaks down on the network. It's job is to carry a big number of passengers by rail as it possibly can & that is no mean feat.

IE 222

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Re: Dart+ Coastal South & new rolling stock and depot for Dart+ West in Kilcock

I would assume that the new additional turnback facility at Dún Laoghaire will need to have some new realignment work done on it's existing trackbed once it get's built after the RO is submitted in Q4 2023. I would be thinking that the new extra track & platform for the new turnback facility being mentioned from the Dart+ brochure may need to start outside the Irish Lights building to make it finish it's track alignment once it enters the station. Also would adding extra signalling facilities become necessary to allow for more services to be depart/arrive at the station?

It would also make a lot of sense for IÉ to have advance plans in place in the short term to propose a build of the new Dart depot at Kilcock within a year or less from launching the recent Dart+ West consultation to members of the public last week. It would be good for IÉ to do this now while alleviating possible congestion concerns of new battery rolling stock fleet being delivered & lying around in spare sidings all over the GDA's rail network before the new stock get's shipped over here to be tested & run for service on our rail system.

With trains proposed to run every 4 minutes between Maynooth to stations around Dublin CC & then onto Bray/Greystones; I would imagine the 1st tranche of new trains will be coming in quite a large amount to for it to absorbed onto the system in Dublin. You would not want these trains to be standing around North Wall as a possible storage facility while the commuter stock is still running an active commuter rail service on the network to Maynooth/M3 Parkway. The new stations being built for Connolly North & Spencer Dock on that section of the line will by a lot of builders along with lots of their construction equipment on site at Mayor Street Luas Stop.

They have to do that job whilst building the new stations on an active rail network in Dublin while it is our own capital city. That is not an easy job to do for any company as it can run into problems from time to time especially if you have to encounter signal/points failures on the line.

To take the amount of new rolling stock needed for this project into account; if 600 carriages came onto the system as an overall figure & were split up into 2 "5 carriage" units to make run on 10 carriage trains; that will add up to 60 "10 carriage" units for Dart+. That is not enough trains to be running Dart+ properly because IÉ would have to maximize the use of these new carriages on other parts of the new Dart+ network along with Dart+ West.

It would mean IÉ would have to use them on the existing Dart line that we have now & for the other new expanded services on the network in future like to Drogheda and Hazelhatch with it possibly going to Kildare in the medium-long term for DU while it lessens & availability of the number of carriages in use for the new service.

That would not be acceptable for rail commuters as they want to see more Darts being used to get them to their destination in Dublin by using rail much quicker.

It's also one big reason why the 8 carriage requirement is there as a crucial benchmark by IÉ as it can be used to maximize the use of the trains while Dart+ complies with it's new T/T & frequency. With 8 carriage Dart trains being more realistic capacity to carry rail passengers than 10 carriage trains; it will allow for 75 "8 carriage units" to be used on Dart+. Think about it; it's an extra 15 full length trains that you didn't have dreamed of while before we could use them as 10 carriage Darts. That is an absolutely massive figure. Just think of the potential of which you can use the new Dart fleet with those figures as you get more value out of them while the trains carry more passengers than expected on any day of the week. If not all of them are out at the same time; some of them can be used as replacement units or for maintenance if one full 8 carriage Dart breaks down on the network. It's job is to carry a big number of passengers by rail as it possibly can & that is no mean feat.

They haven't released Dun Laoghaire plans yet but given the planned service level it would have trains run through or using the bay every 3 mins. I seen there is a large sum of money been ear marked for its upgrade so would imagine it's going to be a drastic enough upgrade. I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar to GCD with central bays as there would be a lot of conflict crossing lines.

Dual mode trains will go into service once any training and testing is complete.

Connolly North is not part of the plans. It was apart of a purposel for one of the tunnel options. Spencer Dock can be built without impacting services. Docklands will operate as normal. There will obviously be a need to close sections for a period to reconfigure and lay new lines into Spencer Dock.

Fleet will be ordered in 4 & 8 car sets. Nearly every platform on the network would need to be extended to cater for 10 car trains along with needing to reconfigure sets. There is 296 cars been ordered now maybe the coastal upgrade will see more been ordered at a later date. I'm not sure how long the older stock will continue running and more sets will be ordered as a replacement for them at a later date but there 17x4 car sets and 19x4 or 12x6 car 8100 sets. I know the 8100s will be first to go but we should still see more service years from the others. 296 cars should give you about 60 new sets with a good mix of 8 and 4 cars, I'd hazard a guess at 17x8 & 40×4 plus the 17 older 4 car sets. They will still want to be able to split sets and not all services would require 8 car. I would assume we will see 2x4 car sets terminating in Connolly possibly splitting to reduce empty stock movements. Presumably a 4 car set would cover Hazelhatch - Spencer Dock/GCD with the increase frequency. Shuttle services wouldn't even need to be 4 cars either.

IE 222

Just looked again

Dun Laoghaire "turn back upgrade" is costed at €49 million. For comparison Spencer Dock is priced at €100 million, Kylmore €8.5 million and Cabra 16 million which I think includes a second platform at Hueston west.

€49 million would indicate a major reconfiguration. There is a lot of space to play around with. If they relocate the substation and push the platforms north wards they could build a U shape platform with 2 bays inside and the 2 running lines on the outer. Bridge over to Harbour road already allows for a third track.

Be nice if they could get the old station building back into service.

loyatemu

IE 222 wrote: »

Just looked again

Dun Laoghaire "turn back upgrade" is costed at €49 million. For comparison Spencer Dock is priced at €100 million, Kylmore €8.5 million and Cabra 16 million which I think includes a second platform at Hueston west.

€49 million would indicate a major reconfiguration. There is a lot of space to play around with. If they relocate the substation and push the platforms north wards they could build a U shape platform with 2 bays inside and the 2 running lines on the outer. Bridge over to Harbour road already allows for a third track.

Be nice if they could get the old station building back into service.

DL had a 2nd turnback platform until quite recently. Is this 49m just to put it back?

IE 222

loyatemu wrote: »

DL had a 2nd turnback platform until quite recently. Is this 49m just to put it back?

Yeah I know, neither of them where ever really used.

I don't know what the actual design plans are but Dun Laoghaire will be used as frequent turn back station, it's not just a couple of trains a day.

Given the price tag and comparing to other station upgrade costings it would appear to be a major reconfiguration and redevelopment. I doubt it's just a case of reinstalling the bay to its previous lay out. It would also cause delays crossing departing up trains over onto the up line.

BonnieSituation

Is the old rear platform out of use now?

I worked in Dún Laoghaire for years until 2012, and it was used regularly enough for DL terminating services. Have been to DL barely a handful of times since, and only once on the Dart.

loyatemu

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Is the old rear platform out of use now?

I worked in Dún Laoghaire for years until 2012, and it was used regularly enough for DL terminating services. Have been to DL barely a handful of times since, and only once on the Dart.

I think there are a couple of peak Dart services a day that use it. As I mentioned it above there used to 2 tracks either side of an island platform, but they filled in one to widen the platform a few (5?) years ago.

IE 222

The 10 min frequency put a stop to it. As you say a couple of rush hours used it years ago. They park a 7 car ICR there for a few hours now.

Pete_Cavan

IE 222 wrote: »

Just looked again

Dun Laoghaire "turn back upgrade" is costed at €49 million. For comparison Spencer Dock is priced at €100 million, Kylmore €8.5 million and Cabra 16 million which I think includes a second platform at Hueston west.

€49 million would indicate a major reconfiguration. There is a lot of space to play around with. If they relocate the substation and push the platforms north wards they could build a U shape platform with 2 bays inside and the 2 running lines on the outer. Bridge over to Harbour road already allows for a third track.

Be nice if they could get the old station building back into service.

I'm pretty sure that the documents suggest they decided against a Heuston West station in the options assessment.

The layout you describe could work very well at DL. With trains turning back there, would we see frequency greater than every 10 minutes north of there or could it be reduced south, or a bit of both?

p_haugh

Back when the ferry was still operating there it probably saw more use, but with the death of that and also the 10 minute operation frequency, it rarely sees any use now, only if there's disruption or line closures really.

IE 222

p_haugh wrote: »

Back when the ferry was still operating there it probably saw more use, but with the death of that and also the 10 minute operation frequency, it rarely sees any use now, only if there's disruption or line closures really.

Its literally a stabling area now. Yeah I think your right. There use to be a Dart sitting there to meet the ferry arrival.

IE 222

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that the documents suggest they decided against a Heuston West station in the options assessment.

The layout you describe could work very well at DL. With trains turning back there, would we see frequency greater than every 10 minutes north of there or could it be reduced south, or a bit of both?

Hueston is included in the overall plan. The Kildare line plans are meant to be released early next year. They'll have more details of it along with finishing the quad tracking into Hueston.

There is very little details regarding the Wexford line. Its schedule to have 18tph to Dun Laoghaire currently which would pretty much give a 7min frequency I think bray will have 12 giving a 10 min frequency. Level crossing closures will most likely be apart of the plan and should in theory allow an increase if needed. It would hamper Wexford services but you could increase to 20tph to match the LLB as long it's all stopper services.

Jamie2k9

Did I hear correctly the loop line though Drumcondra will be closed with the DART + upgrade. I have looked on IE site but didn't see any reference. Can anyone point me towards the docments if it is expected to close.

loyatemu

IE 222 wrote: »

Hueston is included in the overall plan. The Kildare line plans are meant to be released early next year. They'll have more details of it along with finishing the quad tracking into Hueston.

There is very little details regarding the Wexford line. Its schedule to have 18tph to Dun Laoghaire currently which would pretty much give a 7min frequency I think bray will have 12 giving a 10 min frequency. Level crossing closures will most likely be apart of the plan and should in theory allow an increase if needed. It would hamper Wexford services but you could increase to 20tph to match the LLB as long it's all stopper services.

there's various service pattern options in the appendices, they all envisage Rosslare trains starting from Greystones.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Did I hear correctly the loop line though Drumcondra will be closed with the DART + upgrade. I have looked on IE site but didn't see any reference. Can anyone point me towards the docments if it is expected to close.

Depending on what upgrade option they pick for Connolly will determine what flows where.

Option 3 which was ruled but actually seems to going ahead will give Drumcondra a mix of Maynooth and PPT services.

Option 6 which includes major reconfiguration on Connolly and doubling of the Newcome curve will see all Maynooth services transferred to the Newcome road line.

Option 3 requires 24 movements a hour through Drumcondra and 8 via Newcome. 16 of the 24 will need to cross through North Strand Jct.

Option 6 will split each equally with 16 each with 8 each going through North Strand Jct and Newcome Jct.

Judging by the report difference between each option is about €60 million which is loose change in the grand scheme of things and the cheapest option is already €130+million.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Did I hear correctly the loop line though Drumcondra will be closed with the DART + upgrade. I have looked on IE site but didn't see any reference. Can anyone point me towards the docments if it is expected to close.

Depending on what upgrade option they pick for Connolly will determine what flows where.

Option 3 which was ruled but actually seems to be going ahead will give Drumcondra a mix of Maynooth and PPT services.

Option 6 which includes major reconfiguration on Connolly and doubling of the Newcome curve will see all Maynooth services transferred to the Newcome road line.

Option 3 requires 24 movements a hour through Drumcondra and 8 via Newcome. 16 of the 24 will need to cross through North Strand Jct.

Option 6 will split each route equally with 16 each and with 8 each going through North Strand Jct and Newcome Jct.

Judging by the report difference between each option is about €60 million which is loose change in the grand scheme of things and the cheapest option is already €130+million.

IE 222

loyatemu wrote: »

there's various service pattern options in the appendices, they all envisage Rosslare trains starting from Greystones.

Yeah, there is 1 free path a hour but it wont bring any improvements overall. It needs a number of things to go right for it to fit in. It may benefit following a terminating Dun Laoghaire service and if level crossings are removed but not by much, maybe 5mins.

Pete_Cavan

IE 222 wrote: »

Hueston is included in the overall plan. The Kildare line plans are meant to be released early next year. They'll have more details of it along with finishing the quad tracking into Hueston.

I realise that things may change from when this report was prepared in 2018 but on Page 74/109 it states;

https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/d34065cd-6540-4be1-9cb3-bcea61273fdd/Annex-3-3-DART-Expansion-Programme-Options-Assessment.pdf

5.3.14 The above measures mean that the Heuston West (Platform 10) station is no longer required and has been removed from the Scheme Bundle 6 package of measure going forward.

Carawaystick

loyatemu wrote: »

there's various service pattern options in the appendices, they all envisage Rosslare trains starting from Greystones.

I'd imagine that will kill off all non-commuter traffic, having to use a dart with limited seating and no luggage racks, and either wait on a platform or cross the lines for the connection, At least Bray has the possibility of a cross platform connection to a DART

SeanW

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'd imagine that will kill off all non-commuter traffic, having to use a dart with limited seating and no luggage racks, and either wait on a platform or cross the lines for the connection, At least Bray has the possibility of a cross platform connection to a DART

I'd imagine the trains would be timed to connect with a Greystones DART. Notwithstanding that, the point is valid - why would anyone other than a commuter use a train that only takes them to the next county over from Dublin to connect to local train? That would be like Bus Eireann stopping coaches in the Dublin suburbs and telling everyone to change to Dublin Bus. What would be the point?

IE 222

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I realise that things may change from when this report was prepared in 2018 but on Page 74/109 it states;

https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/d34065cd-6540-4be1-9cb3-bcea61273fdd/Annex-3-3-DART-Expansion-Programme-Options-Assessment.pdf

That's stage 2 of the process. Further down the document (no page number but page 232 on my device) in appendix H second page its apart of the same option and bundle in stage 3 which I presume is an advancement on stage 2, unless I'm looking at it wrong.

I reckon we wont finally know for sure until Kildare line plans are finished.

IE 222

I don't think they'll get away with cutting all Rosslare services from Dublin. Presumably there would be enough public outrage and politics will win over with some sort of compromise.

At best all Rosslare will get is the same service level for the foreseeable if they insist on running all services through. Its takes 2.5 hours to run a set Greystones - Connolly - Greystones I wouldn't be surprised to see it increase to 3hours with Dart expansion.

I think the commuters should look into and open up to the idea of 2 full intercity services running through plus the peak commuter on top of a bi-hourly Greystones - Wexford shuttle offering a pre 10am and after 10pm arrival into Wexford. Its an inconvenience no doubt but it's not going to make your journey any longer. The Wicklow and north Wexford need more services and it's not feasibly possible to do it in its current format.

AngryLips

loyatemu wrote: »

there's various service pattern options in the appendices, they all envisage Rosslare trains starting from Greystones.

RIP the Rosslare line

Pete_Cavan

How likely/possible is it that extra track be provided at Shanganagh as part of DART+ Coastal South, even if only one northbound? You could have 2km of extra track without demolishing anything which could allow Wexford trains overtake a DART at Woodbrook.