DART+ (DART Expansion)

prunudo

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

How likely/possible is it that extra track be provided at Shanganagh as part of DART+ Coastal South, even if only one northbound? You could have 2km of extra track without demolishing anything which could allow Wexford trains overtake a DART at Woodbrook.

Good idea, so probably won't happen! But at the very least a corridor should be set aside for future expansion.

loyatemu

the tender for Woodbrook is already out and the design for the big development around the station is done.

prunudo

loyatemu wrote: »

the tender for Woodbrook is already out and the design for the big development around the station is done.

Any idea if they left scope for expansion or is it typical of other developments and designed right to the boundary.
OT but always thought that section between Bray and Shankill would make a great place for integration into a future metro line to link up to Sandyford.

loyatemu

prunudo wrote: »

Any idea if they left scope for expansion or is it typical of other developments and designed right to the boundary.
OT but always thought that section between Bray and Shankill would make a great place for integration into a future metro line to link up to Sandyford.

Woodbrook plans are here:https://www.woodbrook1shd.com/drawingsarchitecture and the answer to your question is no, they didn't

TBH I don't think a passing loop so close to Bray would make much difference anyway.

the proposed Luas extension of the Green Line doesn't use the old Harcourt alignment, instead it goes into "Little Bray" (the bit of Bray north of the Dargle) and connects with the Dart at Bray Station (at least that was the previous preferred route, they'll probably have to redo the design if it gets back into the planning process).

Pete_Cavan

loyatemu wrote: »

Woodbrook plans are here:https://www.woodbrook1shd.com/drawingsarchitecture and the answer to your question is no, they didn't

TBH I don't think a passing loop so close to Bray would make much difference anyway.

the proposed Luas extension of the Green Line doesn't use the old Harcourt alignment, instead it goes into "Little Bray" (the bit of Bray north of the Dargle) and connects with the Dart at Bray Station (at least that was the previous preferred route, they'll probably have to redo the design if it gets back into the planning process).

That doesn't prevent an additional track on the eastern side of the existing line, development not happening on that side. The seaward platform at Woodbrook would just become an island which could be done even after the station was built. It is possible to do but obviously there are other factors which will influence if it is worth doing, worth considering though.

cgcsb

Rosslare is a bit of a conundrum. I think that we'll see when the high speed rail study comes out that there'll be some political quid pro quo for the lesser used lines Sligo, Rosslare etc. basically if we're connecting the three cities by hsr the towns on lesser used lines will have to get some line speed improvements. It's shouldn't be hard to improve speeds on the Rosslare line, most of the slowness is not accounted for by sharing with DART but rather the ****e single track further south. It takes 2 hours to get from Rosslare to Greystones by train, work out a programme to reduce that to 1.5hrs or less and increase the frequency of the service and the politics of stopping Rosslare trains and swapping to DART at Greystones goes away.

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

Rosslare is a bit of a conundrum. I think that we'll see when the high speed rail study comes out that there'll be some political quid pro quo for the lesser used lines Sligo, Rosslare etc. basically if we're connecting the three cities by hsr the towns on lesser used lines will have to get some line speed improvements. It's shouldn't be hard to improve speeds on the Rosslare line, most of the slowness is not accounted for by sharing with DART but rather the ****e single track further south. It takes 2 hours to get from Rosslare to Greystones by train, work out a programme to reduce that to 1.5hrs or less and increase the frequency of the service and the politics of stopping Rosslare trains and swapping to DART at Greystones goes away.

I still think the "Intercity" services will go through to Connolly, with additional "Commuter" services connecting to Greystones. Politics will come into play.

IE 222

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

How likely/possible is it that extra track be provided at Shanganagh as part of DART+ Coastal South, even if only one northbound? You could have 2km of extra track without demolishing anything which could allow Wexford trains overtake a DART at Woodbrook.

Its possible but what about the other 4 or 5 Darts in front of it before it got there. You'd only be knocking 2-3 mins off the journey provided the Rosslare can approach without having to wait for the Dart to clear the line.

To gain any worthwhile improvements for the line your talking doubling Bray Head and treble tracking about 50% of the line. That's hundards of €million to serve 1 route with a 1000 commuters.

BonnieSituation

IE 222 wrote: »

Its possible but what about the other 4 or 5 Darts in front of it before it got there. You'd only be knocking 2-3 mins off the journey provided the Rosslare can approach without having to wait for the Dart to clear the line.

To gain any worthwhile improvements for the line your talking doubling Bray Head and treble tracking about 50% of the line. That's hundards of €million to serve 1 route with a 1000 commuters.

One would assume that the amount of commuters would grow with a better service. Anyway...

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Tbh, any further coastal expansion is a bit pointless given the cost and the erosion that will become a growing problem.

The line needs to go inland really somewhere. Now that is a bigger ballache to deal with.

cgcsb

IE 222 wrote: »

Its possible but what about the other 4 or 5 Darts in front of it before it got there. You'd only be knocking 2-3 mins off the journey provided the Rosslare can approach without having to wait for the Dart to clear the line.

To gain any worthwhile improvements for the line your talking doubling Bray Head and treble tracking about 50% of the line. That's hundards of €million to serve 1 route with a 1000 commuters.

only 1000 using a rubbish service but tens of thousands using bus services and driving cars up the motorway because that's faster and better value than the rubbish train service. I see there's a big spend project upgrading the M11 for all the people who think the train service to Wicklow and Wexford is rubbish.

Lord Glentoran

AngryLips wrote: »

RIP the Rosslare line

If they do that then ferries should shift to Waterford and have a ship side rail connection to Dublin, Limerick, Galway and Cork at Belview. Simple as that.

BonnieSituation

Imagine if Iarnród Éireann only knew that they owned Rosslare Europort.

IE 222

BonnieSituation wrote: »

One would assume that the amount of commuters would grow with a better service. Anyway...

---

Tbh, any further coastal expansion is a bit pointless given the cost and the erosion that will become a growing problem.

The line needs to go inland really somewhere. Now that is a bigger ballache to deal with.

Yes there is definitely growth to be gained but there comes a point where it's not economically viable.

The money involved here would build a new line and there ain't many options for a new line either. Best I can see is something running along the M50 to Park West or taking over the Harcourt alignment from Luas after that its tunnelling.

IE 222

cgcsb wrote: »

only 1000 using a rubbish service but tens of thousands using bus services and driving cars up the motorway because that's faster and better value than the rubbish train service. I see there's a big spend project upgrading the M11 for all the people who think the train service to Wicklow and Wexford is rubbish.

I don't disagree but until someone is willing to pull road funding and sign of on what I'd imagine would be well over €500 million nothing is going change. It's a very large investment with a very limited return.

The NTA ruled it out as been too expanse and expensive and that was just the Bray Head part.

cgcsb

Just pull road funding then. A policy of widening existing commuter motorways is counter productive in this day and age. If there is a capacity issue on motorways build PT

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

Just pull road funding then. A policy of widening existing commuter motorways is counter productive in this day and age. If there is a capacity issue on motorways build PT

Well there are motorways like the M20 that still desperately need doing.

BonnieSituation

bk wrote: »

Well there are motorways like the M20 that still desperately need doing.

Yes. But not at the expense of PT in a capital city that has been crying out for rail upgrades for half a century.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

Well there are motorways like the M20 that still desperately need doing.

That's a new motorway that provides an inter-city and port connecting function. A different concept to widening an existing commuter motorway to encourage more rural to city car commuting. The M28 and and the Foynes-Adare motorways are also justifiable on that basis.

bk

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Yes. But not at the expense of PT in a capital city that has been crying out for rail upgrades for half a century.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that for a moment!

Though Cork has been massively underinvested compared to Dublin over the past 30 years. Every motorway leads to Dublin, M50, port tunnel, Luas, vastly better bus services, Dart. And hopefully soon Metrolink, Dart+, Busconnects, etc.

The least they could do for Cork is build the M20!

Of course hopefully we will also see a big improvement in Cork Bus Service under Busconnects, maybe Cork Luas, improvements to rail (Blarney), etc.

cgcsb wrote: »

That's a new motorway that provides an inter-city and port connecting function. A different concept to widening an existing commuter motorway to encourage more rural to city car commuting. The M28 and and the Foynes-Adare motorways are also justifiable on that basis.

I agree completely, that clarification just wasn't clear from your comment.

BonnieSituation

bk wrote: »

Of course, I'm not suggesting that for a moment!

Though Cork has been massively underinvested compared to Dublin over the past 30 years. Every motorway leads to Dublin, M50, port tunnel, Luas, vastly better bus services, Dart. And hopefully soon Metrolink, Dart+, Busconnects, etc.

The least they could do for Cork is build the M20!

Of course hopefully we will also see a big improvement in Cork Bus Service under Busconnects, maybe Cork Luas, improvements to rail (Blarney), etc.



I agree completely, that clarification just wasn't clear from your comment.

I knew you didn't mean that, but it needs to be said all the time. I'm all for investing more in Cork and Limerick and the SW generally to take the pressure off Dublin and the GDA.

dublinman1990

IÉ is holding a webinar for Clonsilla Residents affected by Dart+ at 6:30pm tomorrow evening. It's discussing alternative access to Clonsilla Level Crossing.

Pete_Cavan

Is there anything which people want to submit to the consultation which they think is worth others repeating?

For the underpass at Ashtown station, they should consider the potential for adding additional tracks along there in future and not do anything to prevent it. The terminating station for DART needs a turnback platform to avoid repeating the problems which already exist on the network. That would require a rebuild of Maynooth station or, if enough space doesn't exist there, moving the terminus west.

Rulmeq

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

...rebuild of Maynooth station or, if enough space doesn't exist there, moving the terminus west.

Will they consider bringing it as far as kilcock (or even Enfield!) given that the depot will practically be in Kilcock anyway.

loyatemu

Rulmeq wrote: »

Will they consider bringing it as far as kilcock (or even Enfield!) given that the depot will practically be in Kilcock anyway.

it seems a no brainer - maybe a P&R station at the depot.

Pete_Cavan

The no brainer location for a P&R is west of Kilcock beside Musgraves, directly off the M4 J8;

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.407587,-6.6844645,542m/data=!3m1!1e3

Could have four platforms there, only about 2km of extra double track beyond the depot.

loyatemu

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The no brainer location for a P&R is west of Kilcock beside Musgraves, directly off the M4 J8;

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.407587,-6.6844645,542m/data=!3m1!1e3

Could have four platforms there, only about 2km of extra double track beyond the depot.

depends how straightforward or not it is to double thru Kilcock, but yeah looks like a better location.

IE 222

loyatemu wrote: »

depends how straightforward or not it is to double thru Kilcock, but yeah looks like a better location.

Its fairly simple to double. Current station should allow a second track under the bridge with a second platform either side of it.

L1011

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The terminating station for DART needs a turnback platform to avoid repeating the problems which already exist on the network. That would require a rebuild of Maynooth station or, if enough space doesn't exist there, moving the terminus west.

There's a turnback siding West of Maynooth as it is; albeit currently without the right points work to address the Eastbound platform I believe. But anyway, the correct submission in my eyes is to extend to Kilcock when they're already nearly there.

IE 222

Kilcock makes the most sense but it will effect Sligo/Longford services further.

GerardKeating

loyatemu wrote: »

depends how straightforward or not it is to double thru Kilcock, but yeah looks like a better location.

When origionally built, it was double track to Ballinasloe (via Mullingar/Athlone) so unless a building has encroached on the track, it should be ok to re-double