DART+ (DART Expansion)

Ireland trains

Nibs05

I guess the enterprise fleet will become a railcar fleet thus ending loco hauled services in and out of Connolly for the first time ever since the station opened, that will be a sad day but that’s progress.

L1011

DART+ West consultation 2 is up, that hideous virtual consultation room concept everyone is using now.

p_haugh

Only had a brief look so far, but this shows off the proposed design for Spencer Dock station which looks decent - 4 platforms and has an entrance at either end (linking to the Luas at Spencer Dock, and a bus drop off on Sheriff Street). Another thing I noted is that there's a new entrance proposed for Connolly station off Preston Street - I take it they are planning on replacing the existing (although not in use) Amiens Street entrance with this new one, which is a bit odd imo. Haven't had a full look yet, although the station design drawings don't seem to be loading properly yet - most of them point to the same pdf showing the 3d view of Spencer Dock. Hopefully this is rectified.

L1011

The Amiens Street Commuter entrance is to be turned in to offices, this was opposed by multiple submissions on the basis that it should be reopened instead (although we do have a dissenting voice to that on here). So this Preston Street one is the replacement for that.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117672114#Comment_117672114

I think that was a temporary planning permission for a few years with the condition that it wouldn't preclude it from being used as an entrance in the future.

Stephen Strange

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117672114#Comment_117672114

I don't get why they can't incorporate an entrance into the office design, in a similar manner to pearse street

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674400#Comment_117674400

Its not particularly large. They're using the existing buildings, not building a new office development.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674400#Comment_117674400

The anti-social behaviour at that entrance was beyond what any normal person would consider acceptable, including several extremely vicious assaults on staff members. That alone is reason not to reopen it, but the option just does not exist given the ongoing conversion of that space to offices.

The benefit that Preston Street has is that it is within the body of the station itself and it will mean two distinct exit routes directly from platforms 6 & 7 thereby splitting the crowd.

Not fronting onto Amiens Street is a good thing to be honest as sadly there continues to be significant amounts of anti-social behaviour taking place to this day.

BonnieSituation

How is hiding the entrance on Preston St preferable, if the reduction of anti-social behaviour as it affects commuters and locals alike is the goal?

The only solution to reducing anti-social behaviour is an increase in surveillance, both active and passive.

An increase of services that Dart+ will bring, will supply the foot traffic that will in turn reduce ASB.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675057#Comment_117675057

Well I wish you luck with that. The problem is the street (Amiens Street) and immediate area surrounding it which has all sorts of social issues. Increased footfall hasn't changed that from what I can tell.

Over the time I've worked in that area, I've seen, all in broad daylight, frequent drug dealing, bag snatches, and on-street brawls, oh and a drugged-up couple having sex on a side lane.

The notion that all of that is suddenly going to change is ridiculous. The social problems in that area sadly are as bad as ever.

The risk of anti-social behaviour on the station premises and against station staff reduces, that's my point, as the new exit would be more difficult to get away from quickly as there's only one way anyone could go (as opposed to several from the old suburban exit).

But far more importantly the new exit would mean different entrance/exit flows from platforms six and seven which at peak times has to be a good thing. The old exit would still rely on the existing ramp.

L1011

The entrance is being moved to a side lane, albeit quite a pretty one - if actions down side lanes are of concern, this won't change that!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675475#Comment_117675475

To be fair that particular event, took place on an alleyway with no housing on it.

Preston Street is a proper street with housing opening onto it.

But sadly it would be fair to say that I'm much more aware of the social deprivation issues of the north inner city now, than I was before I started working there.

AngryLips

Does anyone know if the proposed station at Spencer Dock facilitate service via Drumcondra as well as services via the line underneath Croke Park? I'm surprised by the fact that they're going underground with that station to be honest, I was not expecting that. I was half expecting them to bring the line right through to the site of the former North Wall station along the quays but I guess that would probably result in platforms spilling across the existing red luas line.

gjim

"I'm surprised by the fact that they're going underground with that station to be honest, I was not expecting that."

It's actually easier this way given the elevation of the tracks terminating here and there is already a bridge in place under Sherrif St with nearly 5m clearance.

I also was hoping they'd move the station all the way to the North Wall but I can understand that it'd be a far more disruptive project as you'd have to bring four tracks under Mayor St which would probably mean severing the Luas line during construction as well as dealing with presumably significant utility diversion. Wishful thinking also is that they've left the North Wall station site free to facilitate construction of a future DU station there.

On another note, I would have thought that this site would have been a good one to sell air rights and build offices or apartments overhead. I don't know enough about whether the finances work in this situation, but I got the impression that it's a common model for funding city centre station redevelopment in countries. It seems a waste of prime docklands location to have a single story structure occupying half of city block 2. It feels like IE are leaving money on the table.

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678940#Comment_117678940

Yes the new station will be accessible from that line. It will be accessible from the all three lines: Northern Line from Malahide; GSWR line through Drumcondra and the MGWR line under Croke Park.

Why the station is below street level is explained in Section 2.1.2.2 of this Docklands Station Options Study Summary Report (https://www.dartplus.ie/getattachment/14fd5087-ca53-4ef2-a43f-45b62c86351a/Annex-9-3-Docklands-Station-Options-Study-Summary-Report.pdf)

Option B2 solution provides better integration with adjacent building by aligning the platforms of the station to the North Lotts planning scheme gridlines. This alignment also makes the layout more compatible with the layout of the buildings above. To achieve this, the platforms need to be pushed southwards so the tracks can connect with the different lines while achieving the radius required.

The only way of being able to push the platforms southwards is by lowering the TOR so the tracks can be placed below the plaza between the building and the LUAS station. The resulting level for the platforms, in this case, is -3.60 metres.

Essentially lowering the station below ground level is about making it easier to connect to the three rail lines and make it easy to develop buildings over the site in future.

I'm not at all sure where this leaves the DART Underground Station, which is meant to be under this Docklands Station and under the North Wall Station. There's some mention in the engineering options reports about how they could dig part of the station box for the DART Underground station, but no mention of it in any of the other public consultation materials.

Does anyone know if this Docklands Station will block the DART Underground project?

AngryLips

It will be interesting to see what the service patterns will be if the Spencer Dock station can theoretically provide services to Drogheda, Dunboyne, Maynooth and Sallins. I imagine that peak services will be facilitated to all destinations but it will be interesting to see what's accommodated on a clockface basis.

D.L.R.

Its all a bit cheap and cheerful.

Do Minimum lol what a phrase - Irish for couldn't be arsed

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117539913#Comment_117539913

Well plenty of people in the village and harbour area of Howth are normal enough folk, and people go there to work of course, and lots of them.

that said the rich, up the summit, probably drive alright.

a shuttle there wouldn’t annoy the locals too much I think, if frequent enough. It might even open a faster route to the city if people can get on an express at the junction.

however it might harm tourism, at weekends and even weekdays during the summer, Howth station is busier at weekends than weekday rush hour.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117687490#Comment_117687490

The shuttle would be every 10 minutes - double the current frequency on the branch.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117687667#Comment_117687667

Fine for me an I live on that spur.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117687450#Comment_117687450

Ah no need to be so negative - it's a major advance over the usual IE "cheap and cheerful". It will have 4 or 5 platforms and provide connectivity between Northern, Drumcondra and the MGWR lines and is directly integrated with Luas and is positioned in a location where people might actually want to use it.

IE's usual cheap and cheerful version would be to build a single windswept uncovered island platform and a single entrance on say Ossary Road served by one MGWR train an hour while ripping up one of the northern line tracks to save costs on station construction.

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117687450#Comment_117687450

To be fair to them the phrase "Do Minimum" comes directly for EU environmental law. DART+ will go through the Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) process from EU environmental law, that we've transcribed into Irish planning law. "Do Minimum" is the name for the environmental base case that all other scenarios (like actually building DART+) are compared against. They are just lining up these options selection reports with the planning law jargon now, because these reports will form part of the background for the Environmental Impact Assessment Report (EIAR) when they submit to An Bord Pleanála next year.

Pete_Cavan

Having only had a relatively quick look at the drawings, the SP station seems a reasonable effort, particularly if it is to be replaced in the not too distant future with a DART+ Tunnel station further south. I haven't seen any references to allowing for a future tunnel portal but hopefully that has been considered. Ideally the new SP station would be placed as deep as possible which would only help for the tunnel.

The Connolly proposals are a bit disappointing. Ideally, the former postal building would be used for the new entrance which would give presence on Amiens St. That building could create something befitting a main train station in a capital city, rather than just a hole in the wall at the end of a side street.

L1011

The former postal building is in use by a division of Google called Pointy. They might be moving over to the GCD area but not seen anything confirming that.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117695744#Comment_117695744

Is the building in private ownership?

L1011

I'm fairly sure it is, and it wouldn't have been Irish Rail ownership anyway - it was An Post.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117695876#Comment_117695876

Real pity it can't be incorporated into the station, the building seems ideal for it with the ridge roof lights letting daylight in. Our stations are usually pretty underwhelming compared to what you see elsewhere, I'd imagine that building could make a great station without a huge amount of work.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117696085#Comment_117696085

A suburban commuter station does not need anything more than a simple entrance.

There is a massive station building already on Amiens Street. We don't need another one.

L1011

Our station buildings are generally earlier than those you see elsewhere, which would have impact on why they don't look like late Victorian palaces (or fascistic palaces for some places that rebuilt them).