DART+ (DART Expansion)

loyatemu

I don't really see the need for line numbers - the destination on the front will tell you where it's going. It's not like there are multiple options for getting to (e.g.) Malahide.

cgcsb

Part of the reason for route numbers is that some routes will operate as 'express' DARTS. For example the D2 from Drogheda to Connolly won't service every stop.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316982#Comment_118316982

There is already a turnback at Dun Laoghaire. Used to be DL terminating DARTs to meet ferry sailings until [some time, I can't remember when, but before the ferries ended]

There also were (are?) some morning peak reinforcement DARTs starting there.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118317370#Comment_118317370

Well yes but there was also a proposal for improvements to the turnback and station generally. I think there was a layout posted here a while ago with U shaped platforms, terminating track in the middle and thru tracks either side.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118317419#Comment_118317419

Considering the listed station buildings along P2 there I would find that... complicated if not impossible to achieve.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118317353#Comment_118317353

But I'm sure that some trains from Drogheda will also cross the Liffey (there would be a lot of opposition if none did), so thats at least two numbers. Northern DART also has two termini (Malahide & Howth), as does southern DART (Bray & Greystones. There is Maynooth and M3PW. There will also likely be multiple city centre terminating points on services from west of the city, Connolly, Docklands, Grand Canal, Heuston, etc. All these route numbers make it more confusing, people will just look for the terminus. Having DARTs and Express DARTs is also unnecessary. Just keep it simple.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118317461#Comment_118317461

Still need the numbers because some trains would skip stations between some stations and their terminus.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118317370#Comment_118317370

There was a dart that was there on Saturday afternoon showing "landstown road" on the destination, presumably waiting to work a matchday special northbound when the match finished.

(Not seen by me, saw mention of it on a FB group).

murphaph

The Berlin S Bahn uses numbers but if a service is running short they just show the regular number with the correct destination. This often happens on the Ringbahn for example, where normally trains just go round and round, but sometimes head to the depot in Charlottenburg, in which case they will change their display to Charlottenburg.

We don't have any express S Bahnen yet but there was talk of creating one and it would have been an extension of the S5, to be called simply, the S5X.

D.L.R.

Oof the new livery is UGLY. But its Irish Rail so not surprising.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118317419#Comment_118317419

anyone have a copy of this layout design? It's virtually impossible to search threads on this new version and I'm not going back through 264 pages!

patrickbrophy18

I think the train experience for those as far out as Drogheda will be downgraded given that the DART will be stopping at all stations to Dublin City and they will be lacking in the on-board toilet department. Yeah, Intercity trains will still stop there. But, we need to keep the deal sweet for passengers too.

Kudos on the wheelchair friendly retractable ramps, the USB docks and ease of movement between carriages. Also, the overall look of the exterior is very nice with a continental touch in keeping with the X'Trapolis image.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118318952#Comment_118318952

DART Coastal South derailed plans have yet to be published.

However the summary document at www.dart plus.ie refers to a turnback at Dún Laoghaire.

The preference these days for turn backs is for them to be in the centre to minimise pathing disruption.

It is certainly doable in DL - the platforms would have to move further north and the space realigned.

LXFlyer

Anyone going to Greystones won’t have a toilet either and they manage to cope.

That need for that “facility” is overplayed I think.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118319182#Comment_118319182

There are also toilets at more of the Northern line stations than there are on the existing DART route.

However, there are none between Maynooth and Connolly.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118318957#Comment_118318957

There is no way you could have Drogheda trains stopping at every station to Dublin city centre. The journey time would be far too long, it would be crazy spending money on an inferior service. If that was the case, it would be better to leave services north of Malahide as they are.

This is why I think it would be mad to have Drogheda services branded DART. It is a different type of service and throwing it into the DART mix will only create unnecessary confusion.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118316532#Comment_118316532

DART Coastal is spilt between Coastal North (Fairview to Drogheda) and Coastal South (Pearse to Greystones). Most of the scope is what the public has been asking for a while/ requirements for improvements to services but some areas will want service improvements without having to suffer through infrastructure improvements. It really comes down to how the NTA and local reps sell it at certain locations. Some improvements didn't make it to the option phase due to the belief that they would generate public outrage and possibly derail the project.

But you'll have to wait and see what comes up in the consultantion.

lucernarian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118319182#Comment_118319182

The existing commuter and intercity service to Drogheda all have toilets without exception, and indeed are a USP over most of the bus services operating from the coastal towns along the current route. Likewise with every service that operates along the Maynooth to Dublin stretch.

It doesn't seem wise to remove a used and desired feature that is already provided for, for a new train order. I also note that the Matthews coach services increasingly tended to operate services that have toilets (though they're not always usable or in operation).

If there is a service pattern of darts running up to every 5 minutes south of howth junction, wouldn't that necessarily imply that the journey times for any trains beyond that will be the same as for the darts that are rate-limiting the speed at which any "express" service can travel at? Which then a) suggests there's no point running express/limited stop services and b) the journey times to places like Drogheda will be well in excess of an hour?

murphaph

They could add a well maintained and staffed set of toilets roughly half way along the routes and show this on maps so anyone really caught short can hop off, spend a penny or whatever and get on the next train. Would surely be cheaper than maintaining toilet facilities in every train.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320589#Comment_118320589

I do get all that but how many people are we talking about that are seriously going to say that they won’t use the trains because they don’t have toilets?

The Enterprise, Dundalk, Sligo, Longford/Mullingar and Rosslare services will all continue to have toilets, and rightly so.

I’d point out that many people have a commute of over an hour on Dublin Bus on a single bus, but they don’t have toilets either?

As for the speed - I await with interest to see what the proposals for DART+ Coastal North are going to be. Unless there is provision in it for overtaking to take place between Clontarf Road and Raheny then yes, you are right, people north of Malahide are being condemned to mediocre journey times in the future.

cgcsb

I have it on good authority that the future enterprise fleet will be capable of running on deisel, battery or overhead power in both AC and DC. I do worry about such complexity and the possibility of mechanical failure myself but if it works that would be great. The BEMU fleet on order for DART have a name plate range of 80km on battery, the same range for Enterprise could get trains from Dublin to Newry without Deisel. Or if electrification was extended to Dundalk possibly all the way to Belfast without any diesel requirements.

DART + Coastal is a tough one, it'll need meaningful passing loops for it to work in the short term, which is hard to do with current station arrangements, for the enterprise and anyone commuting from North of Malahide.

The only real long term solution is a new intercity rail route from Drogheda to Dublin via the Airport. Closer to the M1 for all trains going between Dublin and anywhere North of Drogheda, let the existing coastal line be DART only and the new line can operate at 200km/h+ straight from Drogheda to Dublin with only 1 stop at the airport, only about 15 mins. The Balbriggan and Skerries passengers would be faster going outwards to Drogheda and change onto the new express line there. You'd have the choice of speed or high frequency.

dublinman1990

Could Alstom be a potential supplier of these new Electric trains for the Enterprise if the new tender process was done by TransLink or IÉ.

gjim

"I have it on good authority that the future enterprise fleet will be capable of running on deisel, battery or overhead power in both AC and DC. I do worry about such complexity and the possibility of mechanical failure myself but if it works that would be great."

It sounds like a nightmare. It pisses away the huge advantages of simple catenary system: low maintenance cost, high reliability, simplest operationally, lowest unit costs, and lower weight/better acceleration/breaking.

Now running a single train requires expertise and facilities for maintenance of ICE engines (multiple per train presumably), diesel fueling/storage/transport infrastructure, charging stations in depots for the batteries (requiring very high amp grid connections), the cost of recycling batteries every 3 or 4 years and increased operational inflexibility.

Just put feckin wires over the tracks already - like the rest of the world has done/is doing. It works, it's simple, it's the most operationally flexible, greenest, provides the best performance and over the medium term is the cheapest in terms of running costs and fleet costs. Talk about turning a simple problem with a simple solution into a something complex and expensive.

murphaph

I agree on the diesel component for sure. That's bonkers stuff for such a tiny network. Just stick with diesel under the wires for now. The stock has plenty of life left in it anyway and there's so much sunk manufacturing carbon in it it would be retrograde for the environment to scrap it (though unfortunately IE has form here).

The battery thing has merit, though I had hoped they'd cut their losses with DC traction and electrify the rest of the national network using 25kVac, with dual mode electric vehicles being ordered until such a time as the existing Dublin network (which is a tiny part of a tiny network!) could be refitted to 25kVac. I guess that's not going to happen and the entire country will now eventually use DC OHLE. Again, if the battery tech is up to it, it's perhaps not a terrible way forward. Gradually electrify the urban & suburban networks and perhaps intermediate stretches in the midlands, to allow a battery equipped vehicle to "Play hopscotch" across the country, until eventually the whole network is electrified and the batteries can be retired from most of the fleet.

lucernarian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320739#Comment_118320739

I did consider a version of this (simply having a halfway point isn't nearly enough IMO, it would need to be several stations along the way) but then I wondered.

Has there been a thread or wider media/political discussion about removing the toilets from some of the existing 29K sets to increase capacity / reduce overcrowding / reduce opex, by relying on train station facilities? Are there many examples of such practices in other countries?

I do have a relevant and comparable example of train procurement that involved new sets for suburban / interurban service replacing sets that did have toilets. You can see the outcome of that here: https://www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/new-ns-sprinter-trains-toilets-take-tracks

The part where the issue was debated in parliament and NS were mandated to retrofit toilets was separately confirmed by an email I got from an NS official.

What basis do we have for thinking this will work out so much better for Dart West, where none of the intermediate stations have toilet facilities or the staffing requirements etc to keep those clean and maintained? While the facilities and staff to keep *trains* clean already exist...

Pete_Cavan

I don't think not having toilets on trains on Maynooth or Hazelhatch should be an issue. When these are DARTified, the vast majority will be relatively short (even from the outer extremities to city centre will be a short period of time) and the frequency will allow people get off, use the toilet and get back on within 10 minutes.

The issue would be Drogheda or other similar distance services where journeys are longer and frequency less. This is another reason for not having Drogheda part of DART, make it clear that DARTs don't have toilets on board but you can use toilets at designated stations for no cost penalty and minimal time penalty. Outer services justify having toilets imo.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118322843#Comment_118322843

My "dream" solution, would be quad track to Airport/Swords/Rush and divert (or give the choice) for trains north of Malihide to this route and link it to "DART Underground" in the City Centre, so (in thoery) one could have a Belfast/Dublin/Cork (or Limerick) service.

Ireland trains

LNER in the UK have a set-up on their desiro fleet with metro (3+2) interior and a 2+2 suburban interior with nicer seats.

IÉ could do something similar with a commuter/new branding with toilets for outer fast/semi fast services.

riddlinrussell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324990#Comment_118324990

With their proposals for a 'High Speed' (Read 200km/h) link from Derry/Belfast to Cork I cant see any other option than to split it off at Drogheda/Malahide with undergrounding from Airport to Heuston.

The cost to upgrade south of Malahide to serve commuter/DART AND a high speed service would surely outweigh the cost of such a tunnel? I suppose we shall see if its given any consideration when the DART+ North plans are revealed.

p_haugh

Maybe it could be a case of the battery-electric trainsets (i.e. the ones for going to Drogheda/Wicklow/Longford etc.) having toilets plus more commuter style seating etc., with the other electric trainsets having more of a mix of metro & commuter style layouts (or even full metro style to maximise standing capacity if the demand was there).

This would definitely be something to put forward in the public consultations anyways, whenever that goes live.