DART+ (DART Expansion)

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118325569#Comment_118325569

They could Brand them something like "Arrrow" maybe ..

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118320739#Comment_118320739

Many of the Northern Line stations have toilets. According to the Network Statement Drogheda, Balbriggan, Rush & Lusk, Donabate all do. Whether they're in good nick, truly wheelchair accessible, or even open normally it doesn't say though!

Maynooth line has nothing between Maynooth and Connolly.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323671#Comment_118323671

I'd generally agree but batteries have a life of 10 years, and it's quite unlikely that the whole intercity network will be fully electrified in the next 50 years. Are there any countries with fully electrified networks? Maybe Belgium is close. So this stock can be redeployed elsewhere when full electrification comes in on the main intercity routes. There are also other priorities on the inter city network, getting Dublin - Cork running at 200km/h in sections with trains every half hour is a more pressing task than putting up wires in Ballina. Assuming that either will ever happen and the government genuinely does want to invest in the railway after 100 years of neglect and avoidance.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324656#Comment_118324656

AFAIK the plan is still for Leinster commuters to be branded DART and use the batteries to run to Dundalk, Longford, Portlaoise/Athlone and Goery. A good approach in my view for a simple unifying brand with routes numbered or suffixed with an X. The exact numbering will become clear in the next 4 or 5 years. But I expect that It'll be 25kV AC after DART+ at least on the Cork and Belfast lines. Can't see DC going out that far with substations plonked every few km in inaccessible places. Long term you might see a different style of train serving the longer DART routes.

bennyineire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327740#Comment_118327740

Is there a plan to extend the commuter to Athlone? Currently only intercity

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327740#Comment_118327740

I know it's early days but are regular DART services envisaged from Gorey to Dublin or is the plan to interchange at greystones.

Will also be interesting to see will there be any faster services from the greystones/further south.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326005#Comment_118326005

Agreed. It would take a government very serious about rail, which might actually happen in the future when people see the success of the DART + project. A completely new Drogheda-Dublin route could be engineered to high spec (250-300kmh) for future proofing and not much more investment than a new 200kmh route would take. I would go further and build a new straighter Newry-Lisburn route along the A1 to the same standard and buy 250kmh rolling stock, then you have a slow, section between Drogheda an Newry but still delivering great journey times, an hour or less and leave the commuter routes with their own dedicated tracks

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327776#Comment_118327776

Yes, there'll be direct regular DARTs to Gorey direct from Dublin with no change required, more frequent than current commuter service but a lot less frequent than the Dublin-Greystones DART. And speed will remain uncompetitive with express bus services for some time

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327754#Comment_118327754

Unofficially yes. There needs to be a new passing loop built first.

bennyineire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327891#Comment_118327891

We've been hearing this for over 20 years TBH, we'll me waiting 20 more at least I reckon. Too much congestion as it is

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327853#Comment_118327853

Would these just be extensions to Greystones services calling at every station.

Is there a reason why Irish rail can't revert to the pre 10min frequency journey time which which was about 8 extra minutes faster from gs to Connelly. And will level crossing closures reduce journey times slightly.

cgcsb

Level crossings closures if they happen won't have a significant impact on closing times, can't say atm how exactly but there's the intention to allow some of the long dart routes bypass some stations, not yet clear how.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118319580#Comment_118319580

What improvements failed to make public consultation for fear of local outrage?

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327853#Comment_118327853

Odd, that's never come up in the design meetings expansion of the wires south of Greystones and the BEMU scope is only for the Malahide-Drogheda section.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118329358#Comment_118329358

Main one I can mention considering DART Coastal has yet to go public and the option itself is dead in the water and extremely unlikely to make a return was tweaks to Rosslare services, having them terminate at Greystones instead of having to go all the way into the City Centre and transfer to DARTs. Would improve frequency south of Greystones to the turn of a minimum of 1TPH extra but the fear was that the general public would only see a loss of direct connection and the pushback Bus Connects project was getting from the public regarding having to transfer services saw the option scrapped.

Peregrine

The scope of the BEMU study was Malahide-Drogheda with some extrapolation for the Kildare Line. The GDA Transport Strategy 2021-2042 envisages extending DART to Wicklow or possibly further in the latter stages of the strategy. DART to Gorey is not on the cards until around 2042 or likely beyond that.

If Irish Rail are talking about it, the NTA aren't.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330555#Comment_118330555

Thank you for bringing this back to what is actually planned rather than speculative ideas that people might have.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330272#Comment_118330272

Outer darts will be battery only, so Gorey will be served by a DART using battery power up as far as Greystones. Assuming of course the current DART programme is delivered. The commuter brand will be replaced entirely by BEMU DARTs

Pete_Cavan

Are you saying what you think should happen or what you think is actually planned to happen? If you think it is part of an official plan, where are you getting that info from?

The idea of "outer DARTs" or "long dart routes" sounds like an absolute mess. May as well call every train to/from Dublin DART at that stage.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331182#Comment_118331182

Again that's not whats in the scope documents...

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331712#Comment_118331712

Ok I know, 👌 was only responding to a question

thomasj

How will these plans for the northern line in 2024 affect its capacity ? I see that a 5 coach DART could carry up to 550 passengers , but the busiest of the northern line services would carry to 800 passengers in the morning peak .

What will happen here? Is a 10-coach DART possible and can the platforms on the Northern line cater for it ? Or would there need to be alterations to Drogheda and Dundalk services to try and rebalance capacity?

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330272#Comment_118330272

Will there even be space of diesel trains near the city centre if there's darts up to every 5 minuets?

Separately an increase frequency from Gorey is mentioned in Irish rail's 2027 strategy although it makes no reference to branding.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331865#Comment_118331865

the 5 car sets can be put together for a 10 car train and they're no longer than existing 8 car Darts.

Peregrine

We really have to uncouple the idea of electrification with the DART brand. I'm convinced that electrification of Dublin-Cork will be called the DART to Cork. 😄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331865#Comment_118331865

The two capacities are calculated based on two very different comfort levels. The new carriages are likely based on AW2 (4 passengers standing per square metre) which is what most design capacities are calculated on these days. We don't calculate capacities based on crush load anymore. The old carriage capacities are based either on AW3 (crush load, 6 passengers standing per square metre) or even AW4 (8 passengers standing per square metre) which looks a bit like this:

https://youtu.be/E7kor5nHtZQ

The new carriages likely have more standing space per train.

bk

"We really have to uncouple the idea of electrification with the DART brand. I'm convinced that electrification of Dublin-Cork will be called the DART to Cork. 😄"

Surely we will call it CART 😀

Great explanation on how it can be difficult to compare passenger capacity between different generations of trains, if you don't know what spec is being used to calculate the number. We have seen the same confusion when people compared the capacity of the original Luas Trams to the capacity of the extended Luas trams now or proposed Metrolink capacity.

Probably better to look at the length of the 5 and 10 train formations versus the current 4 and 8. Though that doesn't tell the complete story given the new trains being open carriages and different door arrangements.

Pete_Cavan

If the 5 car formation is (driver unit + 3 intermediate units + driver unit), is it possible to go with a driver unit at front and back and have additional intermediate units?

So instead of ((driver unit + 3 intermediate units + driver unit) x 2), have (driver unit + ((3 intermediate units)x 3) + driver unit), if you know what I mean.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333083#Comment_118333083

I'm sure it can be done. One of the railway websites reporting on this deal said that there will be 10 car sets in future orders. Can't remember where I saw it.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118332155#Comment_118332155

That is what we would call, a client side issue.

Gorey service increases maybe mentioned in the 2027 strategy, however it isn't in the DART + Coastal project scope documents

Peregrine

https://www.dartplus.ie/en-ie/projects/dart-south-west

Don't forget, the DART+ South West consultation closes today at 5pm.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334423#Comment_118334423

But is a 10 car set just two 5 cars out together, thereby having two drivers cabs nose to nose in the middle? Or can they have drivers cabs at the ends only, with additional middle units (without a cab) increasing capacity?