DART+ (DART Expansion)

Pete_Cavan

Two weeks ago IÉ issued a tender for Multi-Disciplinary Consultant Services for the DART+ BEMU Infrastructure Project, this relates to from tender stage onwards. It doesn't mentione particular sections of the DART+ project so presumably it will be one appointment to oversee all sections.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/228329/1/0

At the same time, they issued the tender for Drogheda Depot Modifications for DART + BEMU Fleet. I dont believe this has gone to consultation, perhaps these works dont need a RO but if not, I would have thought they'd need planning permission for the modular building at least.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/228322/1/0

orangerhyme

Yes

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877761#Comment_119877761

I agree 100%.

Mountjoy Prison is about 10 hectares, so you could comfortably house 4000 people, although that depends if buildings are listed or not.

It would be very desirable location along the canal and with Metro stations and other transport links. Can walk to town also.

Might be easier to control drug problem if it was located in countryside also.

Broadstone depot is similar size so should be redeveloped also.

Move both outside the city.

CatInABox

The first significant news in a while, and it hasn't really made the news.

Cabinet has approved the purchase of the next 90 BEMUs for the new DART fleet. This is in addition to the 95 ordered last year.

Exciting times.

https://wicklownews.net/2022/11/minister-stephen-donnelly-welcomes-government-decision-to-approve-the-purchase-of-90-new-electric-dart-carriages/

strassenwo!f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881320#Comment_119881320

Something I saw today reminded me to reply to this post, which I had been meaning to do. Sorry for the late reply.

As the crow flies, it's 450 metres, at most, not 900m, between the Cabra LUAS stop and the proposed metro station at Glasnevin. Inevitable cannibalisation of the Green LUAS's catchment by the metro will ensue.

As i see it there are currently two North-South rail corridors delivering Dublin residents into and out of the city on the Northside, namely, the northside DART and the LUAS Green Line. (The Maynooth, Dunboyne and PPT lines broadly serve people who live outside of Dublin or live in the outer Western suburbs - not LUAS or potential metrolink areas - and these lines all travel right across the city before hitting anything approximating to 'the centre').

The metrolink represents a potential third north-south corridor within the city. Why build it so close to one of the others?

From what I have seen from developed European cities (in public transport terms), they seem to broadly be aiming at about a 2 km gap between rail-based transport for suburbs which are about 10 km from the centre. Obviously this gap gets narrower as the lines converge on their city centres.

The gap between the LUAS Green Line corridor and the DART corridor was ripe to be filled very efficiently on that broad '2km' basis, at Drumcondra. Moving the 'metro' corridor westward to Glasnevin, under the current plan, will leave a large catchment hole between Glasnevin and Connolly, while also almost certainly cutting severely ino the ridership of the Green Line, on which must has been invested.

cgcsb

Glasnevin is nowhere near 10km from the city centre though, more like 2km crowsfly distance. 10km from the city cente is outside the M50 and there'll be a lot more than 2km between the rail lines at that distance under current plans. The luas green line extension will not exceed 10km from the city centre anyway

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119936591#Comment_119936591

It's 850m walking, at best, and about 600m as the crow flies.

I definitely see your argument for Drumcondra - a better spread of lines.

However, Glasnevin will be significantly cheaper to construct versus Drumcondra and easier to get planning approval.

It also benefits form the proximity of the two proposed Dart lines. It will become a super station for connections with Dart+ West, Dart+SW and Metro in the same station.

cgcsb

There is a future need for a tallaght to coolock metro line serving Harold's Cross and Beaumont through the city centre. But that's a future project.

strassenwo!f

It's 450 metres between the LUAS and the proposed metro, as the crow flies. That is what will matter for people deciding which to choose in that catchment area.

We all know it will be much easier to build it at Glasnevin: it's an off-street, out-of-the-way location. of course there will be no disruption, and no obvious problems during construction.

As I have said before, people can make only one choice in an interchange station, no matter how many options may appear to be available: once they make it, they are gone from that station.

I say that the 'DART' choices between the PPT line and the Maynooth/Dunboyne lines would be made at Glasnevin.

Passenger choices between either and both of those and the metro could then be made at Drumcondra, if an appropriate station were built, or were planned to be built.Such a station would provide equal connectivity, would not involve cannibalisation of the Green Line catchment, and would directly serve more people.

This can't unfortunately be even looked at, because of the primal fear of disruption.

My paltry hope is that ABP will ask for a proper reason why this Glasnevin arrangement is better than what they approved the last time - the metronorth route via Drumcondra. Admittedly, the last time, ABP would have given the green light to pretty well anything, because they knew it wouldn't be built anyway during the financial crisis. Given the state of ABP now the views of whatever new lot come in are very much a mystery, but I would hope that they would ask what advantages accrue by a change from ABP's previously approved Railway Order, which was for a metro via Drumcondra.

We shall have to see.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119937278#Comment_119937278

It's c. 2100 feet according to Google Maps which is 650m AS THE CROW FLIES. That's 40% higher than you are incorrectly stating.

The people of Drumcondra are already served by numerous bus routes and a train station which will be updated to regular Dart. One stop will take you to Glasnevin super station.

"people can make only one choice in an interchange station, no matter how many options may appear to be available: once they make it, they are gone from that station."

What are you even talking about? People can only ever make one choice. Giving people several choices at one super station (Glasnevin) gives people options.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119936400#Comment_119936400

Interesting that they mention the BEMUs could be used in cork too. Makes sense as the only major infrastructure work required would be adding the charging facilities at Kent and potentially the various terminus stations on that network.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119937145#Comment_119937145

Sorry to stay off topic, but would such a line ever be built given it would need to cross the Port Tunnel?

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119937860#Comment_119937860

Yeah, I think the long term ambition is electrify the Cork region, creating an actual Dart equivalent. BEMUs are a good bridge solution though, but I hope that the ambition is to electrify everything sooner rather than later.

loyatemu

do these BEMUs recharge while travelling under the wired sections of the network, or do they need to go back to the depot to recharge? Either way I can't see how they would work in Cork with no electrified sections, they only have an 80km range.

CatInABox

They'd charge under wired sections. Ultimately they'll need to electrify the whole line to get the most out of these trains, but putting up the wires at all the stations along the line would be enough to keep them going all day

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938749#Comment_119938749

really? - they'd be under the wires at the stations for what, 2 minutes at a time?

plus to put wires at the stations presumably means putting in substations at every single one which would be really inefficient and probably as much work as just electrifying the whole line anyway.

if they were going with partial electrification, just doing the central section and maybe the terminus stations would seem more practical.

strassenwo!f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119937607#Comment_119937607

Brian, I am certainly not suggesting that you are wrong, but my google maps is giving me 460 metres or so, as the crow flies, between the proposed Glasnevin Statio, and the nearest LUAS station in Cabra.

There are also many buses travelling along those corridords to Glasnevin and Phibsboro, and Finglas, and into the city. Hopefully we we can get to the stage in Dublin where buses are mostly delivering people between the tram/meto/DART lines, to makee it as efficient as possible.

I recently had an experience, in Poland, where I had just two steps and a hop from my bus from an outlying area onto a tram into my city. Less than 10 seconds. That was extraordinary, and I don''t expect that even in the current place I live. But Dublin, I think ,should do better than the current plan

ArmaniJeanss

You must be placing one of them wrong @strassenwo!f

On the grounds that Cabra Luas Stop already exists, I'll assume you have that correct on the map. For Glasnevin Station which doesn't exist obviously, I've used the Brian Boru pub and it's around 630 metres as the crow flies using the google 'measure distance' utility. If you use Des Kelly Interiors it brings it to 590ish. I see no way of bringing it lower without breaking the laws of physics (or maybe I've the location of the station wrong?)

spacetweek

Strassenwolf - we do not discuss in this thread alternative routings for Metrolink. The plans are thankfully set in stone and will be built as designed now.

This is a DART+ thread for DART stuff.

Other people - Please do not respond to off topic posts.

strassenwo!f

Thank you, Spacetweek.

I am still not clear, like perhaps others, as to what the eventual DART service patterns will be, for the PPT, Maynooth and the Dunboyne lines. Which ones will likely run along the overground line across Drumcondra, which ones will go along the Midland line, etc. There's also fast trains to/from Sligo to be added into the mix.

It seems clear to me that a station at Ballybough should be given serious consideration, and then be built, with a view to providing access to that relatively deprived area of Dublin to rail services, and to providing access from that area of Dublin to services going into the city and also going to many points to the west.

Similarly, with the welcome proposed throughput from the west (Maynooth, PPT or Dunboyne), largely or eventually all DART services, I don't see how passengers could be passing through, on the midland line, a major population and work location (Drumcondra), without a station there.

If the current rail plans go ahead, and they should, it may certainly be an option that such a station should be developed, along the canal, at Drumcondra, to serve the increased Midland Line throughput in that area.

Would the current boat traffic on the canal be much impeded, if the canal were perhaps a metre narrower? And would the residents near the canal be seriously discommoded if a station along the canal were to be built?

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962112#Comment_119962112

A station along the Royal Canal (Midland) Line between North Strand Rd and Ballybough Rd would be a fantastic, and necessary, addition to the future network. It would provide another access point to Croke Park on big match days and take pressure off Drumcondra.

If you check Google Earth there is ample space between these 2 roads for station platforms. However, the same cannot be said about Drumcondra along this line. Whitworth road is right up against the line on one side and the canal on the other.

It would simply cause too much disruption and could not be justified given you can go one stop on a Dart to Glasnevin and switch to this line if needed.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962112#Comment_119962112

The canal at Drumcondra:

The residents (myself included) would never allow the canal (northern sunny bank) to be closed and dug up to build a Dart Station. I don't believe the demand would exist to justify the disruption.

On the other side of the line (Whitworth Rd), any CPO of driveways should focus on providing an additional public transport lane for the F-Spine buses.

I would love to see a station here but we have to be realistic regarding planning etc.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962327#Comment_119962327

Regarding the future timetables, this is certainly unclear and will be interesting to see ABP view.

This was discussed one page earlier in this thread. I believe most, not all, Dart+ West and South West services will terminate in New Spencer Dock, while capacity into Connolly will be reserved for Sligo, Longford and Newbridge PPT services.

strassenwo!f

Brianc89, I think I am looking at a photo of Whitworth Road.

I had more imagined Whitworth Place as a location for a station.

Closed for a time during construction, a station built, then the residents looking out from their front windows at a row of lovely trees, albeit with those fine trees being at a lower level than they currently are, at the back of a DART platform. They would be 10 metres from a station. It could be very fine.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962575#Comment_119962575

I just walked past there 5 minutes ago and was thinking about that!!

The rail line is surprisingly high versus the southern bank of the canal which has apartments and a wall along its entire length. You would end up with an unsightly wall on each side of the canal. That section of canal is already very visually displeasing.

It's definitely possible there, I believe, but I don't see a cost benefit analysis supporting it tbh? It would cannabilise Drumcondra main. A station between Ballybough and North Strand would be a better fight in my opinion.

strassenwo!f

There's no reason why it would cannibalise the current station in Drumcondra, post the proposed DART Revolution.

That suggested station would be on a different line. If such a station on the Midland Line were to be developed, the considerabe number of people who live in Drumcondra would have a choice as to which station would be better for them, as phone apps can readily tell them. Bus passengers would obviously have better choices, and - whatever the rail timetables turn out to be - it is an area that could be served by both lines. Services on the midland line could indeed be timetabled to provide a service to that part of the city when an intercity line to/from sligo is coming through on the other line, just 140 metres down the road.

thomasj

From the railway order

Reading it , 12 trains max will serve the drumcondra line,

- 3 Hazelhatch GCD

- 4 Hazelhatch Spencer Dock

- 3 Maynooth Bray

- 2 towards Longford Sligo

There will be 7 trains max serving the Midland line

- 3 Maynooth Spencer Dock

- 4 M3 Parkway Spencer Dock

jlang

So is that only 3 trains an hour from western suburban stations direct to Connolly (and/or connecting with DART) with a bunch more to the relatively less useful Spencer Dock? Can someone remind me again how the extra capacity will aid someone commuting in from Clonsilla/Coolmine/etc to "not the Docklands".

(answering my own question - ) Is it that where currently there is little point taking the Docklands-bound trains unless that is actually your preferred destination, after DART+ you will be able to take the next "any train" (10tph?) with the option to swap at Glasnevin to the similarly frequent Metro or Loop Line bound services?

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965457#Comment_119965457

What's the point of the two trains per hour terminating at laytown, why not just continue them to Drogheda ?

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968961#Comment_119968961

New Spencer Dock is right next to the Luas stop and only a short walk to the quays. They also plan a new bridge across the Liffey east of Samuel Beckett bridge. The new dart station here will be far more accessible than the current Docklands station.