DART+ (DART Expansion)

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120268498#Comment_120268498

Yes of course. Labour costs a little over half what it costs in Ireland. Their construction industry is well stocked and there's a lot of youth unemployment. Materials are only slightly cheaper though. Their lack of endless public consultation saves a lot of hidden costs, the more up drag a project our, the more it costs generally. They don't drag things out, in Ireland we drag the arse out of things with governance and consultation.

bk

Kind of funny reading these comments on the same day we hear that they bought trains in Spain that don't fit in their tunnels. Sometimes you can cut too many corners in terms of planning.

To be honest I think we have two overall problems here, we simply don't have much experience with these sort of projects yet and also we are trying to do so much in such a such a short period of time.

Ideally when we built the DART, we should have not stopped, we should have kept extending it every few years and developing new lines, eventually branching out to Luas and Metro. Keeping the experienced planners and engineers busy working on it over the past decades.

Instead we have had too much start stop and bits and pieces of different projects and now we have a massive deficit that we need to catch up on. Missing decades of development.

We use to have the same sort of problems with road building, but then in the 2000's we started getting really good with it, rolling out the motorway network relatively on time and on budget, without much in the way of issues. Motorways and phases which were gradually rolled out over a decade.

We have some what seen the same with Luas, which actually went surprisingly pretty well and smoothly and which has been gradually extended ever since.

I hope once we start get going with DART+ and Metrolink that we get into the same type of flow with successful projects.

In particular getting the Metrolink tunnel done will break the last refuge of the moaners who say that we can't achieve such projects.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120270930#Comment_120270930

Let's not pretend that we don't have experience. We have built a national motorway network, the luas and T2 in the last couple of decades ...what more experience do we need?

neiljung

I've heard from a Spanish resident of a situation in Spain where non Spanish nationals have very reduced rights when it comes to opposing CPOs. It came up in the context of some new urban roads winding around dramatically as they picked up 'foreign' owned gardens. Haven't seen it cited but would feed into some aspects of quicker construction.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120271084#Comment_120271084

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

I'd point out that the Mortorway network was built over a decade, broken up into many different much smaller projects. It wasn't a single 10billion mega project (which it added up to) but instead done as many separate projects, each 100km or so and costing a couple hundred million each. All much more digestible. I really wish we could do our rail/Metro/Luas projects in the same way.

But the issue is we tend to do it in bunches, with big stops and starts. We built the DART and then did nothing else with it for years. I bet we lost many skilled and experienced engineers and planners during those decades, so now we have to start over again in gaining that knowledge.

We spent a decade building Motorways and got very good with it, but then stopped and haven't done relatively little since, I'm sure losing many engineers. Meanwhile during that decade, we did very little with public transport, but now are returning to doing loads that should have been built between 2000 and 2020. Thus putting extra pressure on the now.

Think about it, DART opened in 1984, nothing done with it for the next 16 years until 2000 with the minor extension to Greystones, DART platforms lengthened in 2005. It will be almost 20 years after that that we will actually start building DART+ (hopefully)!

DART+ should have been started in phases in 2000, completing each section of DART+ every 5 years, it would have been complete by now and we would have more resources to focus on Metrolink.

As for your question, "what more experience do we need?" Well experience in building rail tunnels. I think we will do it just fine, like we did with the port tunnel, etc. but it is certainly a new skill. Again I think it will go fine, but it is the last area of the professional "journalist" moaners can attack.

We all know that the same people use to moan about Luas before it was built, but it has been such a success and went so smothly, that those "journalists" can't fear monger about new Luas lines or extensions anymore as we do it so relatively well. But they can fear monger about rail/metro tunnels because we haven't done one before and it sounds big and expensive.

I honestly believe that once Metrolink opens it will be a massive success and there will be a big appetitue for Dart Underground and more Metro lines.

But ideally once we get over this hump, we need to keep a steady state of new rail/Metro/Luas projects going so we don't lose experienced engineers and planners again and that we are constantly expand and grow our infrastrucutre rather then doing it all together at once in massive simultaneous massive projects.

bk

Imagine for a moment and alternative DART history:

• 1984 DART opens to massive success and praise, off the back of the success, the team who worked on it immediately start on DART West
• 1990 DART West opens, big success again, public praise, the team starts working on DART South West
• 1996 DART SW opens, big success, the team starts on DART Coastal South with extension to Greystones and other upgrades
• 2000 DART South Coastal Opens with the extension to Greystones. The team starts working on DART North Coastal
• 2005 DART North Coastal complete with electrification as far as Drogheda and the platforms extensions complete.
• The team starts working on the DART Tunnel, sure maybe it gets hit by the recession, but we are good to restart it quickly in like 2015 to 2020.

This is the type of continuous development that we needed and need going forward IMO.

Zebra3

One small positive is that Clonsilla-Maynooth was twin tracked in 2001.

L1011

There's also been a drip-feed of bridge heightening, Clonsilla's third platform, a LC closure and so on. Nothing solid enough to reduce the costs of the total project by more than we've lost to inflation and more complex regs!

cgcsb

The whole country should have a continuous programme of level crossings and bridge heightening with a goal of say 10 crossings and 10 bridges a year. DART+ will eliminate all the remaining crossings in County Dublin and there's a separate project to closes the last few on the Dublin to Cork line. So the remaining focus should be the bridges on the Cork Commuter Rail and the Dublin to Galway Line. There should also be continuous double tracking, at least 50km a year until we have double track to all the cities free of level crossings and low bridges. The electrification projects can then just plough through

loyatemu

DART+ will eliminate all the remaining crossings in County Dublin

I admire your optimism.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120274681#Comment_120274681

A good point. It'll close the maynooth line crossings and the other parts of the programme will probably be cancelled.

specialbyte

It's been 8 years since Irish Rail replaced the Rathoath Level Crossing with a Road Bridge: https://twitter.com/RCPCA1/status/1628116200101187607

Not as part of some mega DART+ expansion project but as part of a standard project. I wonder does our planning application process encourage these mega projects. Irish Rail needed to compile an EIA for the Rathoath level crossing closure. Compiling an EIA requires lots of specialist consultants (air, water, hydrology, vibration, EMI, planning, etc). Irish Rail need an EIA for each of the DART+ mega projects they are working on. Given how long it takes to prepare an EIA (12-24 months) does it encourage you to bundle more things into one EIA to save on the paperwork?

cgcsb

They can be grouped into projects though for example Atherny to Galway level crossing closure, bridge heightening and double tracking project. Replicate same for Cork Commuter Rail, Limerick to Limerick Junction, portarlington to Athlone, Maynooth to Mullingar etc.

And each of these can have phases.

marno21

DART+ Southwest approved by Cabinet for railway order submission

https://twitter.com/tomdouglas95/status/1633417696086769670?s=21

p_haugh

Nice to see!

loyatemu

so will we see consultation on Coastal South start soon?

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329094#Comment_120329094

Further comment on this in the Journal

https://www.thejournal.ie/planning-for-dart-south-west-celbridge-6013466-Mar2023/

It'll go into planning by the end of the month. Also, there's this quote from the minister:

“We’ll start this with the delivery of the first batch of 90 new DART carriages arriving next year. This will see new DART services between Drogheda and Dublin city from early 2025, before then expanding to other areas including Hazelhatch and Celbridge.” 

Is that new? Did we know that they'd be running the new trains out to Drogheda straight away? I knew that they meant them to go out there eventually, but I thought that would require Dart+ Coastal to be complete first. Good news anyway.

AngryLips

When it will come out of planning is the big question

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329816#Comment_120329816

Running on battery from Malahide to Drogheda is probably the maximum capability of the BEMUs. I doubt that hazelhatch to Connolly on battery is doable.

Good to see DART SW progressing. I'm also hearing that cabra and ballyfermot stations will be advanced as individual projects that can be delivered in parallel

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330745#Comment_120330745

80km is the stated range, I think it's about 40km from Malahide to Drogheda, where there will be charging infrastructure. I'm not sure if they can charge off the OHLE while moving but presumably they will get some extra charge from braking while under the OHLE sections (I'm assuming regenerative braking while under battery power is factored into that 80km range).

Just from a rough look at Google Maps, Hazelhatch to Connolly seems to be less than 40km, and obviously to Heuston is much shorter again.

https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2022/12/alstom-supply-18-additional-xtrapolis-battery-electric-trains-irish-rail

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330829#Comment_120330829

But there's plans for charging in Drogheda, not in Hazelhatch

p_haugh

On the twitter announcement, there was this graphic of project "next steps" as well.

Interesting to see both the "next steps" for North & South Costal projects are due to commence in "early 2023".

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330938#Comment_120330938

Is it that additional 41 ICRs are planned for Sligo and Kildare lines with the BEMU fleet for the Northern line? Would make sense from a rolling stock perspective.

The terminal charging infrastructure plans for drogheda should be well in place before the rolling stock arrives.

BEMUs on 1500V DC can usually charge off the overheads no problem so should be fine.

goingnowhere

The DART+ fleet cannot charge stationary unless at the charging facility, cannot charge when train is accelerating. Charging under braking is supported but charging while coasting may not be as it will overload the OHLE supply capacity.

Connolly to Hazelhatch is doable but not practical due lack of charging facilities.

The BEMU is a nice idea to meet political goals but real overhead wires is the only workable solution.

The DART+ fleet also needs ETCS L1 fitted and GSM-R radio, thats only funded for Dundalk-Greystones currently

Pete_Cavan

In the absence of the new depot at Maynooth, where will all these new carriages be stored? With carriages arriving in 2024, they'll be doing well to have the depot ready in time given it doesn't have planning permission yet and will have to be tendered after that.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331819#Comment_120331819

The 41 ICR coaches are intermediate coaches that will strengthen the existing ICR sets across the entire InterCity network.

cgcsb

The use of BEMUs seemed like an obvious way to avoid expensive and lengthy bridge heightening which often brings heritage issues. I wonder why that wasn't considered as a cheaper alternative for all of DART, it would have really reduced the price tag on Maynooth line.

It'll probably be the case in Cork.

rounders

Does part of these plans include the potential for trains to go from Island Bridge to Bray?

I can see on Google maps a short single track area outside Connelly where the could potentially come in the passing platform in Connelly but it definitely needs work and would probably need to be double tracked

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120332012#Comment_120332012

The business case modelling included a scenario with their use on commuter services which is consistent with their statement. So sounds like both:

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/investment-new-trains#:~:text=41%20New%20Railcars&text=These%20will%20be%20additional%2022000,carriages%20began%20in%20September%202022

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120332355#Comment_120332355

They're more expensive to operate as a rolling stock unit, so when lots of them are used on a busy network the operating cost, over time, becomes greater than the Capital cost of electrifying. The batteries all need to be changed for example.

Also, high capacity routes have the issue of charging facility capacity and the time taken as well, so puts more pressure on operations and timetabling.

There's still a big role for the, presume they'll be favoured in Cork which has a smaller network and lower frequency services (I think) than those proposed under DART+.