DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488379#Comment_120488379

You keep saying that here, but a poster who has been involved in the DART+ project has already said that the footprint exists within the permanent way to make it possible, and the Irish Rail CEO is on public record as saying it will be needed.

I suspect that they are rather better informed in that regard?

Operationally, additional tracks are only needed from Killester to Raheny to allow for overtaking, assuming DART frequency remains at every 10 minutes, and not the entire section from Clontarf Road to Howth Junction. There are buildings which are too close to the railway in any case near Kilbarrack.

Zebra3

Take some of Clontarf golf club if needs be.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120469632#Comment_120469632

That's the post concerned FYI.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488446#Comment_120488446

There are buildings which are too close to the railway at Killester, there are house walls within a couple of metres of the access ramp to the station.

The line between Killester and Raheny is in a cutting, to add tracks you'd need to build a retaining structure and dig out the embankment. You'd likely have to create a piled wall from the top of the embankment to prevent the gardens of the houses subsiding onto the tracks, that isn't going to be possible when the only working space available is the steep embankment itself.

How do you remove spoil or bring in materials when there are several hundred metres between bridges with no intermediate access points? Even if heavy machinery could work off the slope they are digging out, they certainly couldn't do so right beside electrical power lines and with trains constantly wizzing by.

The Irish Rail CEO can say lots of things will be needed, that doesn't mean that they will happen. Even if it is theoretically possible, the difficulties and level of disruption associated with it means that it wont happen. There is a reason why there hasn't been any serious proposals to add tracks to this section.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489229#Comment_120489229

Well let’s wait and see.

Just because *you* don’t think it can happen, doesn’t mean that it can’t.

We have already had an engineer who worked on the DART+ project say that it is possible.

The NTA have no interest in the Enterprise, so any funding or proposals for this will come from outside of that channel.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489899#Comment_120489899

Of course it can happen, in that it is certainly possible under certain circumstances. Unfortunately those circumstances involve closing the rail line for the duration of the works, CPOing the back gardens of many, many houses, or a combination of both. None of that will be accepted and there would be enormous opposition to such proposals such that it would be cancelled.

It would be like Merrion Gates but the level of opposition to the 500m or so impacted by that proposal replicated every 500m for the 2.5km directly impaced by this proposal, plus the impacts on those further north if services were curtailed.

Indeed let’s wait and see. I'm sure we'll still be waiting for it in 50 years time.

AngryLips

Speaking of the Dundalk service: it is nuts to me that additional stations are not being considered north of Drogheda. For example Drogheda could easily support a station on the north of the Boyne, while Dunleer must be one of the largest towns in the country with a railway line passing right through the middle of it that doesn't have a train service. What project will these initiatives be scoped under?

cgcsb

4 tracking the northern line seems a bit of a waste of money and effort. The express tracks don't need to be beside the DART tracks. A more direct Dublin to Drogheda line closer to the M1 would be much more beneficial than quad tracking the existing indirect route and buying some of the country's most expensive residential property and taking on powerful nimbys while creating maximum disruption all so that intercity trains can be close to the DART for some reason.

I know some people reckon that they'd squash 4 tracks in but I'd put money on that not being true especially when you consider the retaining structures needed in parts. Bridges and pinch points, Never mind the construction difficulty.

Even if you wanted to penny pinch out any tunneling on a new Dublin-Drogheda route you could have the express trains to Dundalk/Belfast terminate at the airport metro station, where passengers would be another 20 mins by metro to the centre. And then wait 20 years for people to call into Joe Duffy about how the trains should be connected etc and then extend it to the city centre or heuston.

loyatemu

I'd be very surprised if building extra tracks (or just a 3rd track) wasn't the cheapest way of providing an express service - building a new route would be astronomically expensive and far more likely to get bogged down in planning issues.

4 tracks Connolly-Clontarf and 3 from there to Clongriffen would probably allow a 10-15 minutes express frequency in each direction, that's got to be enough for the Enterprise and Dundalk trains.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491150#Comment_120491150

Triple or quad track the line from Drogheda to Clongriffin then cut across to Dublin Airport using the proposed airport DART line.

Way easier.

Have the Belfast to Dublin Airport train stop at a DART station as well for connection with DART services.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491365#Comment_120491365

so to solve the issue of the Enterprise having to crawl along behind the Dart you want it to stop at Clongriffen where everyone would get off and get on ...a Dart?

murphaph

I'd also be astounded if the cheapest way to add a pair of tracks isn't to quad track what's there already. Quad tracking isn't the same as adding 2 express tracks offline. By quad tracking the existing alignment you add significant redundancy. If a DART fails, the DARTs behind it can go around using the express tracks or vice versa. Can't do that if the tracks are not beside each other.

murphaph

Raheny and Kilbarrack are tight and will need CPOs of buildings but the rest is just the odd pinch point and ends of back gardens here and there. There's quite a bit of space along most of the alignment really! All the bushes will go and sound barriers will be built in their places. I always thought it was tighter.

bk

It might make sense to start a new thread to discuss the Dublin to Belfast line? As clearly non of this is happening under DART+

AngryLips

Quad tracking would allow a 24h Dart service.

lucernarian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488187#Comment_120488187

Not sure why this is being reinforced. No one has claimed the NTA has anything to do with the Enterprise, the reason why it's being mentioned at all is because it doesn't exist in a bubble. Same for the limited-stop services to Drogheda and Dundalk that *are* within the NTA's remit. The final dart expansion assessment anticipated an (all-stopping) 2tph DMU service from Dundalk to Connolly 😂 this point has already been covered earlier in the thread

As for the notion that there would be a shuttle service for Dundalk, I mentioned it only because I was looking at the most optimistic non-stop journey time between Connolly and Dundalk increasing to ~46 minutes while all non-enterprise services were to stop at every station. The future patronage report from Jacobs/Systra (https://www.dartplus.ie/getattachment/b2ae32b6-e213-46da-b1b5-b97db122b090/Appendix-C-DART-Expansion-Programme-Future-Patronage-Modelling;-by-Jacobs-Systra.pdf) also lists a 2 tph Drogheda to Dundalk service and one of the preliminary options explicitly called it a shuttle in the service pattern appendix.

If there will be all-stopping Dundalk-Connolly services after Dart+, using DMUs will make the Dundalk-Connolly journey time even more grim than I anticipated. So the all-stopping part of the Dundalk-Connolly service in the prior reports must be mistaken, or it will operate as a shuttle to Drogheda.

I don't think Sligo and Rosslare lines are comparable. With coastal south, services south of Greystones are going to be explicitly terminated there and for Sligo, services apparently won't stop at the intermediate stations between Maynooth and the city centre.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492254#Comment_120492254

The reason I reinforced it is to explain to those that may not be aware of who is responsible for what, why the NTA didn’t factor the Enterprise journey times into the decision on what the DART+ Coastal North project would encompass.

I’d imagine that the Dundalk service would have a similar stopping pattern to the current outer suburban services.

I have not seen any suggestion that Rosslare services would terminate at Greystones, other than from random posters here.

Sligo services will suffer from having to slot into a 10 minute stopping DART service on the Maynooth line, which will mean extended journey times.

The general point that I’m making is that on the Connolly side of the house, the improvements under DART+ (welcome as they are for the city), are all going to lead to sub-optimal Intercity and longer distance commuter service journey times.

No provision is being made for sensible overtaking on any of the routes.

lucernarian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492131#Comment_120492131

I agree that proposals for fixing the future problem are probably better for another thread, however the reason why there will be much slower services from Dublin to Dundalk and beyond is squarely to do with Dart+ and its proposed service patterns and not the present lack of additional tracks or permanent speed restrictions/level crossings etc, and divorcing the two situations is creating a false dichotomy. The preliminary options report for Dart expansion from Jacobs tacked a full quad-tracking option from Malahide to Connolly onto the do-nothing bundle and predictably came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be a good use of money. The 3-track option, or shorter distances of dynamic loops, were not considered and I haven't found evidence for why.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492131#Comment_120492131

All of this relates to DART+ - none of the projects on the Connolly so far deal adequately with the effect on Intercity services. The lines are the same, so I think it is perfectly reasonable to discuss them at the same time.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491818#Comment_120491818

Did you even bother reading my post?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492073#Comment_120492073

It's not just a question of space for the track(s), you also need working space to actually be able to do the work. There isn't space for an excavator to work there with a necessary exclusion zone to the DART OHLE and the trains themselves. You either shut down the rail line for an extended period or you buy all the back gardens to have a level working platform. Neither of these are going to happen.

Whether the space is there is questionable, you need to provide a retaining structure, electrical wires and their supports, drainage, substations, etc. Then you also need construction compounds, access routes for materials in/exit routes for spoil out, etc.

murphaph

They should 100% add at least one set of quad tracking mid-way between Connolly and Clongriffen, ideally quad tracking a pair of neighbouring stations and the track between them. That would allow 2 full arrival sequences and to let express services pass dynamically. Say Harmonstown to Raheny. That would do the job initially.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492350#Comment_120492350

If the space is there in the Heuston gullet to quad track then it's definitely there along the northern line. Engineers find solutions to far more complex problems than this day in day out. Some CPOs will definitely be required but not along the entire route by any stretch of the imagination.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492347#Comment_120492347

yes, you proposed running the Belfast service to the Airport with a change at ClonG (or wherever) for the Dart. It still means anyone going into Dublin has to change onto a Dart or Metro, whereas the previous discussion was around providing an express service into the city for the Enterprise, either along the existing alignment or a new alignment/tunnel.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492375#Comment_120492375

There is less than a km on approach to Heuston which needs two more tracks to get to four tracks, the rest only needs one. To quadtrack anything south of Clongriffin, you need to add two tracks and work on both sides of the existing, operational tracks.

The approach to Heuston isn't as steep, most has some flat space beside the nearest track and there isn't OHLE to worry about. Even without adding track(s), the approach to Heuston needs to be electrified so the works required there are quite large anyway (ducting, bases, etc.).IÉ also have space for compounds with access to the road network along the line. Heuston is much easier.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492336#Comment_120492336

But they don't relate to DART+, they aren't included in the DART+ plans. It is literally in the name of this thread, DART+, intercity services clearly aren't part of the DART

I'm sure there any many folks who just want to hear about the actual progress of the DART+ project and not have to wade through pages of posts that aren't part of the DART+ plan.

I'm not saying at all that you shouldn't be able to discuss these issues, just that it would probably be better to leave this thread to be focused only on the implementation of the actual DART+ plan and then have some sort of separate thread to discuss how they can better facilitate the intercity and long distance services.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492167#Comment_120492167

Why? I don't see why you couldn't operate the DART 24h with two tracks?

lucernarian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492321#Comment_120492321

The options for Rosslare service are right there in the Jacobs/Systra report I linked, in fact all of the scenarios for service patterns have 0 tph for Connolly-Rosslare and 2 tph for Greystones-Rosslare. The speed of the current Rosslare service is heavily impacted by existing services and permanent speed restrictions, and DART+ is not going to add anything more than between 5-10 minutes onto the end to end journey time, a small proportion of the ~3 hours and no expected speed improvements in sight. It also will offer improvements for a minority of customers who will have a somewhat faster journey to their preferred DART station.

Likewise with Longford/Sligo services, they currently manage non-stop or 1-stop services from Connolly to Maynooth in ~35 minutes while the existing all-DMU fleet does it in 45 minutes. The project doesn't seem to expect significant journey time decreases for existing stations but even with somewhat low permanent speed restrictions, I'd expect 40 minutes Maynooth - Connolly and the existing diesel stock will also do that in ~37 minutes, even if it's stuck behind a DART set. *Existing Sligo trains* are timetabled to as long as 37 minutes and the total journey is ~3hrs 15 mins.

The coastal north plan alone will introduce about 15 minutes extra time to any service going to Belfast (a larger proportion of the total journey time) and for Dublin to Dundalk, obviously the proportion is even greater compared to existing fastest services. The increased journey times are mostly impacting the northern commuter route (specifically Drogheda/Dundalk) and number of services impacted is almost as many as Sligo+Rosslare services combined. The Jacobs preliminary options report only briefly considered quad tracking for the northern line, and none elsewhere apart from Inchicore.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492417#Comment_120492417

My full suggestion was that the line (or a lot of it) north of Clongriffin could be triple of quad tracked. Which looks a lot easier than doing likewise south of Clongriffin to Clontarf.

This would give a time saving for those continuing on in to the city centre via DART or metro.

And of course not everyone will want to go to the city centre, and it would connect the airport to main line services and free up paths for local services south of Clongriffin.

Unless someone builds a new line into the city centre which would likely involve tunnelling (so won’t happen any time soon), it’s as good a solution as any.

Years ago I got the bus from Aarhus to Copenhagen. The bus finished in Valby instead of the centre of Copenhagen. Like most others, I then got on the local s-train.

And you know what? It was fine.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492692#Comment_120492692

DART+ Coastal South has not gone to consultation. I would expect a large pushback to the idea of terminating InterCity services at Greystones when it does go to consultation, as it would completely dilute the service south of Greystones. Why would anyone bother - they'll just use Wexford Bus instead.

As for Dublin-Sligo, well the end to end journey time in 1984 was 3 hours 15 minutes in 1984 - suggesting that being maintained now isn't exactly progress is it? The journey time back then for Intercity services from Connolly to Maynooth was 27 minutes. That's what we should be aiming for as part of this project by putting in appropriate overtaking infrastructure.

It's somewhat soul destroying to see the future of Intercity rail on the Connolly routes being just ridden roughshod over by people with very poor operational knowledge (the NTA).